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Craig Disher

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DC/Baltimore Top 50
« on: September 13, 2004, 04:45:19 PM »
Washington Golf Monthly just published a special edition that features what they consider to be the best courses in the area. They ranked the top 50 based on input from their panel who they described as - "Special thanks to Jon Guhl of the Middle Atlantic PGA who emailed our request to every Middle Atlantic professional and to the dozens who responded. Additional thanks to Jon Cummings of Bethesda MD who heads the Golf Week Course Rating panel (?). The panel also included editors, writers, and readers of Washington Golf Monthly."

1. The Cascades
2. Congressional CC Blue Course
3. Pete Dye Club
4. Baltimore CC East Course
5. Caves Valley CC
6. Bulle Rock GC
7. Robert Trent Jones Golf Club
8. Kinloch GC
9. Golden Horseshoe Gold Course
10. Members Club at Four Streams
11. The Raven at Snowshoe
12. Links at Lighthouse Sound
13. Nemacolin Woodlands
14. Columbia CC
15. The Greenbrier (CBM-Nicklaus course)
16. Lowes Island Club
17. Bay Creek at Cape Charles
18. Woodmont CC North Course
19. Olde Farm GC
20. The Virginian CC
21. Stonewall GC - Manassas, Va
22. CC of Hershey
23. Belle Haven CC
24. Lancaster CC
25. Swan Point Yacht & GC
26. Queenstown Harbor River Course
27. Westfields GC
28. Bayville
29. CC at Woodmore
30. Kingsmill River Course
31. Fawn Lake
32. Congressional CC Gold Course
33. Beechtree GC
34. Wintergreen Stoney Creek Course
35. CC of Virginia
36. Traditions at Royal New Kent
37. Augustine GC
38. Whiskey Creek GC
39. Penn National GC Founders Course
40. Raspberry Falls GC
41. Wyncote GC
42. Birdwood GC
43. Chevy Chase Club
44. Hermitage GC
45. Bethesda CC
46. River Bend CC
47. Worthington Manor GC
48. Landsdowne Resort
49. Golf Club at River Marsh
50. Poplar Grove GC

If anything, the list shows the lack of great classic golf courses in the DC/Baltimore area. The list also has quite a few regular WGM advertisers.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2004, 04:52:05 PM »
Pete Dye GC is my #1 with Kinloch #2. BCC is #3. You are right, there are a lot of advertisers on that list.
Mr Hurricane

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2004, 04:58:30 PM »
Washington Golf Monthly just published a special edition that features what they consider to be the best courses in the area.


1. The Cascades
3. Pete Dye Club
8. Kinloch GC
9. Golden Horseshoe Gold Course
11. The Raven at Snowshoe
12. Links at Lighthouse Sound
13. Nemacolin Woodlands
15. The Greenbrier (CBM-Nicklaus course)
19. Olde Farm GC
20. The Virginian CC
30. Kingsmill River Course
34. Wintergreen Stoney Creek Course
35. CC of Virginia
36. Traditions at Royal New Kent
41. Wyncote GC
42. Birdwood GC

Good grief, what is considered "in the area"?  that's a real big "in the area" if Olde Farm and The Virginian are included.  Bristol, VA is the same driving distance from Wash, D.C. as Rhode Island.

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2004, 05:02:24 PM »
Shhh - don't tell Brad Klein!

I have no idea where they came up with that one.  I write for them and helped on the lists.  They know I'm a GW rater but seemed to have stretched my influence  :)

JC

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2004, 05:50:24 PM »
that is one of the worst lists i have ever seen.

if lancaster (which is bit of a stretch beinhg included) is 24 and chevy chase is 43 than i am a complete moron.  i honestly don't know wether to laugh or scream at that list.  stonewall (va) being anywhere in the top 100 is a complete joke, the all time worst ccfad i have ever played.  if one paneleist actually voted rasberry falls or stonewall ahead of chevy chase i would honestly be flabergasted.  just by reading that list i want to cancel my complimentary subscription

jason
« Last Edit: September 13, 2004, 05:51:22 PM by Jason Mandel »
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2004, 06:19:05 PM »
Jason - It's top 50 not 100 and I think you take it too seriously.  We didn't.  Please come up with your own list - I would be interested in seeing it.  JC

Dan Herrmann

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Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2004, 06:43:19 PM »
Wyncote is Washington/Baltimore?  

I guess Pine Valley is in metro NY

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2004, 09:15:05 PM »
Jonathan,

I apoligize if I offended anyone.  I also apoligize if I took these rankings too seriously, I can't help but laugh when I see some of those publics ranked higher than some of the privates such as Chevy and Columbia.  

I'm sorry if you say that you guys didn't take the rankings too seriously, but a lot of your readers will look at those rankings and think that some of these CCFAD's are really that good, and then spend top dollar to play them.  The fact that a lot of these places pay for advertising in the magazine doesn't help either.  If I didn't know better and saw courses such as Lighthouse Sounds, Rasberry Falls, Penn National, Wyncote listed above some of the privates that I have played I would honestly be a little ticked off at the magazine.  

I haven't played close to all of the courses on on the list, but I will give rank the courses I have seen or played.  

1.  BCC
2.  Congressional
3.  Lancaster
4.  Columbia
5.  Greenbriar (Old White)
6.  Chevy Chase
7.  Bethesda
8.  Greenbriar
9.  RTJ
10.  Caves Valley

Of the publics I  have played I would put Wyncote at the top (haven't played Beechtree or Bulle Rock), Glen Mills (heck if your going to include Wyncote you have to include Glen Mills) and the Greenbriars since they are public accessible.  I would put Stonewall at the bottom.  I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone here but I just found the CCFAD to be so obnoxious and overrated that the whole experience was unenjoyable.

On the whole I actually do like WGM, and enjoy the Philadelphia version that has come our way.  If this was done out of fun then fine, but Matt Ward doesn't try and bs us when he does his New Jersey rankings, and I just don't think that should be the case here.

Jason Mandel
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2004, 10:04:24 PM »
Thanks Jason.  Like you, my personal list differs from the published list.  

I don't believe the publishers are driven by advertising - most all of the public and daily fee area courses already advertise with WGM (some private courses do too).  I doubt they are inclined to do more (or less) advertising because of the list.

I think it was simply viewed as a fun thing for WGM to do.  It was really just a few Matt-Ward-Lites averaging their area best lists.

In my mind a huge oversight was Avenel.  It didn't make the Top 50 in the area???  It would come in at 15-20th in my list.  It goes to show you how the bad press from the first 10 years Avenel was opened has been ingrained in the area media's mind.  From a raw immature course, Avenel has grown into something quite respectable; not Top 100 GW modern, but a true top 10 Maryland contender - private or modern.

JC        

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2004, 10:08:36 PM »
Jonathan,

you are right, I was suprised not to see Avenel on that list either.  I have been on the property but never played the course, but just from living in the area for 5 years and being part of the golf community, I think Avenel has a pretty strong reputation in DC.  

I don't want to rank Avenel but I think it is definitily in the top tier of privates in DC.  

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2004, 11:30:00 PM »
I've played 5 1/2 courses on the list.  (1/2 was the front 9 at Wyncote before the back 9 opened).

I'd order the 5 I've played:

Kinloch
Beechtree
Royal New Kent
Augustine
Queenstown Harbour


Others not on the list that I've heard good things about:

Burning Tree
Mt. Pleasant
Greystone
Mountain Branch
Rum Pointe
Farmington
Water's Edge


A few I've played in the defined area that could be considered (besides Avenel):

U of Maryland
Hog Neck
Pine Ridge
Cacapon State Park
Olde Mill
Eagle's Landing

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2004, 11:54:16 PM »
Now you all know why I've been so, so happy to move back to NJ!
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2004, 11:55:07 PM »
I have played 38 courses on the list.  It isn't a dreadful list but does have a few question marks.I wish I could understand why the Links at Lighthouse Sound gets such high marks.  It has a number of very good holes, especially #18.  It also has some of the most boring average holes (ie. 1, 10, 11,) in the area.  It is a case of what might have been.  The Old White is brilliant, and a definite oversight.
Scott, Burning Tree is very good.  Its only problem are the par fives, which are short and dull.  Farmington and the Waters Edge are contenders.  Pine Ridge is a wonderful old course and could be on the list toward the end.  Mt. Pleasant used to be a very good course, Until Northern Parkway and other changes were made.  Fountain Head in Hagerstown is an excellent old Ross course.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 12:10:59 AM by tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2004, 12:06:36 AM »
I forgot about Stonehouse as a contender.  Hey, I like Strantz.   ::)

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2004, 08:18:14 AM »
I like Stranz also. The decline of Stonehouse and New Kent in these rankings is amazing. In 2000 New Kent was ranked the 84th best course in the USA  by GD. Now It's 36th in a small geographic region. Stonehouse was named top new course nationally when it opened in 97. I think these courses are great case studies for courses that the designs required high levels of maintenance that were matched up with financially weak management. They can't possibly generate enough cash flow required to maintain the course the way it was originally designed. They're just about giving away green fees at certain times.

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2004, 08:48:31 AM »
Quote
Now you all know why I've been so, so happy to move back to NJ!
Sounds like the bitter rantings of a man no longer able to enjoy the delights of Redgate  ;)
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Cory Lewis

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Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2004, 08:53:43 AM »
I was one of the Middle Atlantic professionals who responded.  My top five is very similar to this one except that Kinloch is in and Caves is out, also Five Farms is No. 1.  Overall I think it's a good list, but Lighthouse is way to high up, I just don't understand the appeal. I've played 43 of the fifty and believe it is fairly comprehensive.  
Instagram: @2000golfcourses
http://2000golfcourses.blogspot.com

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2004, 09:07:04 AM »
It's good to see Bay Creek recognized. Cape Charles is not easiest place to get to but it's worth the trip. Any word as to when the Nicklaus course at Bay Creek is going to open? When I was there in June they were begining to sod some of  the fairways.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2004, 09:31:21 AM »
The list is interesting but to begin with they should have separated the public access from the private courses.  Simply by taking conditioning as a factor there is no way that Chevy Chase, Bethesda, Columbia, etc. could be out of the top 20.  The public access courses did not include Musket Ridge which is clearly better than a number of the courses listed.  They should have separated the courses and then if they wanted to do something that a typical reader would find valuable they should have taken cost to play into account as a factor.

Craig Disher

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Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2004, 10:03:45 AM »
Jonathan,
From the list it looks like WGM had some fun making it up. ;) Once past the top 10 (with the exception of 4 Streams), I just can't see any consistent theme to the ordering. Maybe that's the point - being on the list is more important than the ranking. Lighthouse Sound's ranking is a complete mystery to me.

Cory,
I believe almost all the courses on the list play at 6800 yards or more. If that was a criterion, it explains why some classics are missing - like Rolling Road (Sr. Open qualifying just played there), Burning Tree and Washington G&CC, a club with a significant history, great site, and mind-boggling routing. They are all great members' courses and for most golfers would be more fun to play than many of the courses on the list. What's your take on why they're not included?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 10:04:08 AM by Craig Disher »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2004, 10:28:54 AM »
Has anyone ever played the western Maryland Nicklaus design, Rocky Gap?  It's been around for 5-6 years and I've never heard any word on how good it is.

david h. carroll

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Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2004, 10:37:10 AM »
Scott--haven't played it, but have heard mixed reviews....it literally sits on I-68, so that must be very loud/interesting...

As a native Baltimoron, hon, I am dismayed by that list...first because of geography--if Farmington, Cascades and PDGC are considered part of the metro area, the so should PVGC, Merion, etc....second by the order--what are they thinking?!?!?

My personal top ten in the area, culled from that list:

BCC Five Farms East
Cascades
Congo
Four Streams
Beechtree
Columbia
Caves
RTJ
US Naval Academy
Mount Pleasant



Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2004, 12:54:42 PM »
Has anyone ever played the western Maryland Nicklaus design, Rocky Gap?  It's been around for 5-6 years and I've never heard any word on how good it is.

One of the members at Congressional, a good player and a green committee member for much of the past 25 years had spoken very highly of it.  I'm not sure when Jack et al. produced it, where it falls with his design efforts, but I received nothing but praise about it.  

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Sean Remington (SBR)

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Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2004, 02:37:41 PM »
  Also in Baltimore and not on the list are Green Spring Valley Hunt Club an Elkridge Country Club. Both are private and great courses IMHO. GSVHC held the USGA Girls Junior a few years back and Elkridge has just done some restoration work.
Anybody else familiar with them?

david h. carroll

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:DC/Baltimore Top 50
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2004, 02:41:49 PM »
Sean--i have posted numerous times re: Elkridge...Silva's restoration work is fantastic...some of the wildest Raynor green complexes anywhere.  As to GSVHC, it's always in great shape, but on that side of town, Herb Strong's Woodholme is a much better and interesting golf course with great elevation changes and a very nice routing.  AS a matter of fact, I should probably put in my area top ten above Mt. Pleasant.

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