[Bob_Huntley]

The Oxford and Cambridge Golfing Society has alerted its competitors that they should not enter its annual event, the President's Putter, unless they they are capable of completing a round of golf in less than three hours. The match-play competition is held on the links of Rye Golf Club each January and two rounds are played during the severely resticted daylight hours.

Phew, can you imagine that happening here?

[Matt_Ward]

Bob:

The subject of slow play is an old one on GCA. I have taken the position that the reason why Americans play slow is because management at many of these facilities permits it. The inmates do run the asylum!

Yes, players can more to be prepared to play, however, it's management that bears the greater responsibility -- for most courses the issue of slow play is just a talking point -- nothing more! Management controls, or I should say or should be in control, of what takes place. Players will gravitate to whatever is enforced but it needs to be consistent and on a daily basis to have any real consequence.

[Doug Siebert]

Never has made any sense to me that owners of courses wouldn't want to speed up play to get more golfers on and increase revenue.  There are so many mercenary courses that do their best to maximize profit I'm amazed they leave so much money on the table by allowing 5+ hour rounds!  Even if they didn't put tee times a minute or two closer together they could start twilight rates later.  In midsummer in northern states you might be able to have an hour's worth of tee times for 18 holes after work on a weekday!

Would it really be bad business for them to give people the boot if they can't keep a four hour pace?  Seems to me that slow players would be pissed off, but players who don't want a round of golf to take most of the day would hear about it and make up for any lost business.  Am I overestimating the number of golfers in the US who hate five hour rounds?

[A_Clay_Man]

Sounds like proper use of psychology, to me. I doubt that the afformentioned press release included a penalty for failure to do so. ?

Glad to see someone taking a stand but with the litigious nature of our society, here, someone would probably sue saying that they were being discriminated against because they like to smell the flowers.

How about this for reality, there should be places where people can not only smell but eat the roses too(favorite far side reference). Places like Bob's all time favorite, Pebble Beach, should be the first place to encourage molassis play and charge accordingly. Oh they alread do, nevermind. Can anyone imagine hurrying up their round on a beautiful day, there?
What a waste

[Matt_Ward]

Doug S:

The reason why courses don't do what should be so obvious is that they place higher priorities on other areas. For starters -- all the GPS nonsense and all the rituals in having people "meet & greet" you when you arrive.

Enforcing slow play is not easy -- you will, in all probability, be forced to approach some people and let them know that crawling like a turtle is not in the spirit of the game-- that may also mean escorting them off the property which very few courses will ever do.

Unfortunately, many of the resort type courses are populated by management types who don't want to "disturb" the patrons after having their pockets picked for $150+ green fees. They've been told to avoid any conflict even if that means others suffer behind the slow play crawl.

One other point -- when management at a facility INSISTS that carts must be used and you are MANDATED to stay on paths at all times you have an absolute gross misunderstanding on how to keep the game moving for the enjoyment of all players.

Doug -- when you mention the idea about people wanting to play less than five hours just keep in mind this -- there are plenty of people who have experienced nothing less than five hours on the golf course and they want to meet and greet the cart girl, buy the 64 ounce drink at the turn and stuff their face with nothing less than a Dodger dog at the turn. The mindset in America is more than just playing the game -- it's about all the connected "show" items and how they have been fed into the golfer's "experience." In simple terms -- management has added all the "show" items because there are plenty of players who insist upon them. The playing of the game is not the purest form of enjoyment -- it must be connected to all the hoopla.

[Steve Wilson]

I've told this story so many times I don't remember if I've told it here or not.  I played two rounds at Dornoch in May or 2000.  The first round was with three other Americans--two of whom could really play and there father who kept the ball in play.  I was the weak link in the group but I found myself waiting, waiting, waiting.  There were obviously no mandatory carts, no halfway house, no beer cart, none of the often cited distractions that contribute to slow play.  It took us nearly five and a half hours to finish.

Two days later I played with two Scots from Tain who were exercising their right to a reciprocal round.  I was the youngest player in the group, by at least two decades over one of them.  I was also having the best and slowest day.  But we still finished in three hours and fifteen minutes.  Even allowing for a threesome versus for a foursome, where the hell does all the time go.  I know that I can manage a three hour round in a twosome and that's the pace I like for that leaves plenty of time for more golf or for other activities.  

Is there a difference between those of us who want to play golf and those who want a "golfing experience."

I used to attend football and baseball games with a friend who never made less than two trips to the concession stand and usually more than that.  I went to see the game, he obviously went for the haute cuisine.  I think there is a similarity there.  I was there for the game, he was there for the experience.  

I have heard people offer the explanation that they play golf to relax and they don't like to be rushed as that destroys the intent of the activity.  It's got to the point that I think I may take some light reading material--Gibbons "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" with me.

As for why courses don't catch on to the fact that they can make more money with faster rounds--I'm clueless.  Can it be that course management can't do simple multiplication.  There are courses I avoid because I know that a five or six hour round is the best I can hope for and by the time I finish I'll be thinking more about how long I've been there than I'll be thinking about golf.

[Mark_Fine]

Going through some old threads and came across this one on pace of play.  I think owners would love golfers to play faster, but as said, it is a fine line they walk in pushing their customers to move quicker.  That said, I am working with a course offering ideas for improvements and one of the marching orders is "don't do anything that will slow up play".  The owner thinks adding bunkers for example will cost him money as they make rounds take longer!!  

[Tim Weiman]

Matt Ward:

I'm curious about how you feel management might address one of the worst exmples of slow play I've experienced.

The location is Recreation Park in Long Beach, California where many times I arrived at the third tee with 2 or 3 groups waiting.

Holes #1 and #2 do not strike me as cause for slow play. #1 is short par playing about 315 yards downhill. Most players, even long hitters tend to lay up for position due a bunker that guards the right side of a green angled sort of like #10 at Riviera. Other than missing near pin high on the right, there really isn't that much trouble to be found. It should be an easy hole for almost every class of player.

The second hole presents even less trouble, playing back uphill maybe 360 yards to a wide open green without too much in the way of bunker protection. Looking at the hole, its hard to imagine anyone finding much challenge or reason for delay.

Truthfully, I never saw much reason for delays on #3 either or #4 and so on.

Nonetheless, it could easily take 45-60 minutes to play 2-3 holes.

Other than sending off groups with greater interval, I couldn't see that much could be done.

Have you encountered a similiar situation? Do you have any thoughts on situations where the course design can not possibly acccount for the slow play?

[Jack]

I would rather not play then take 4 or 5 hours. I try to play most of my golf during the week in the spring and fall. I also like to play twilight.

I think Steve has it about right. Players want an experience. I would rather just play.

My most enjoyable rounds have been in the fall on a run down muni at twilight. No one ahead of me and no one behind me. I
am done with 18 in well under 3 hours.

I am constantly amazed at how folks endure slow play. My theory about the younger players is that they simply do not know any better.

I've told this story so many times I don't remember if I've told it here or not.  I played two rounds at Dornoch in May or 2000.  The first round was with three other Americans--two of whom could really play and there father who kept the ball in play.  I was the weak link in the group but I found myself waiting, waiting, waiting.  There were obviously no mandatory carts, no halfway house, no beer cart, none of the often cited distractions that contribute to slow play.  It took us nearly five and a half hours to finish.

Two days later I played with two Scots from Tain who were exercising their right to a reciprocal round.  I was the youngest player in the group, by at least two decades over one of them.  I was also having the best and slowest day.  But we still finished in three hours and fifteen minutes.  Even allowing for a threesome versus for a foursome, where the hell does all the time go.  I know that I can manage a three hour round in a twosome and that's the pace I like for that leaves plenty of time for more golf or for other activities.  

Is there a difference between those of us who want to play golf and those who want a "golfing experience."

I used to attend football and baseball games with a friend who never made less than two trips to the concession stand and usually more than that.  I went to see the game, he obviously went for the haute cuisine.  I think there is a similarity there.  I was there for the game, he was there for the experience.  

I have heard people offer the explanation that they play golf to relax and they don't like to be rushed as that destroys the intent of the activity.  It's got to the point that I think I may take some light reading material--Gibbons "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" with me.

As for why courses don't catch on to the fact that they can make more money with faster rounds--I'm clueless.  Can it be that course management can't do simple multiplication.  There are courses I avoid because I know that a five or six hour round is the best I can hope for and by the time I finish I'll be thinking more about how long I've been there than I'll be thinking about golf.

[Jason Hines]

Hello everyone,

I solved the slow play problem by joining a private club that I have played several times as a guest in under or around 3 hours.  My father had always said that you will know when its time to join a club and for me that day was on the 17th of November when there were only 10 cars in the parking lot at a semi private and it took 2 ˝ hours to play the front.  It was a Palmer course and people dropped down good money and they took all the time in the world they wanted.  When we went ahead of them at the turn a fist fight almost ensued.  

The pro actually called me at work a few days later to make sure that the course handled everything correctly, but the call was as big a token as the kid taking our clubs at the car.  I think everyone on this thread has nailed it, there are two types of players, the people there for the game and the people there for the polish dog with extra mustard.

Next year will be at a proven golf club, so in other words the war is over for me now.


Jason

[Dan King]

Matt_Ward writes:
I have taken the position that the reason why Americans play slow is because management at many of these facilities permits it. The inmates do run the asylum!

Why should daily fee courses give a damn about slow play? Unless it affects how fast golfers get off the first tee, it doesn't make a bottom line difference how long the patrons are out on the course. Courses collect fees before the round starts, not as you are finishing up on the 18th green.

Financially it makes sense for a course to want to keep customers at the course as long as possible. No way to sell them anymore beer once they leave the course. Keep them long enough, you'll end up feeding them breakfast, lunch and dinner, not to mention keeping the cart girl busy.

The only way to fight slow play is to stop patronizing courses that allow slow play. Only then courses might see a monetary difference and finally do something about pace.

Dan King

"There is not the slightest doubt in my own mind that golf as played in the United States is the slowest in the world."
 --Henry Longhurst

[Matt_Ward]

Dan K:

The reason why daily fee courses should care about slow play is as simple as can be -- MAKE MORE $$$$! If you can knock down total time frame for rounds just 30-40 minutes you can squeze in several additional groups. At high end places that can mean an extra $600 or more depending upon the green fee.

Many high end daily fee courses place a great deal of emphasis on "customer service," but the reality is dealing with slow play is a talking point. You can get even more $$ out of people Dan if you dealt with the issue directly instead of pssing away a ton of dough on such silly shit as GPS systems and the like!

Dan -- I've seen golfers come into a clubhouse and have a "frank" discussion with impotent Polo wearing staff who simply pose as window dressing "customer service representatives." How about realizing that slow play is just dead wrong!

You're right Dan -- eventually people stop going to those places because as Jason Hinez correctly points out he doesn't need the lame post mortem call from the pro "AFTER THE FACT" when something proactive should have been done when he was there.


Tim W:

Based on the facts you presented I'd have to ask does the management at the facility have staff at the key holes where these back-ups occur? Too many times rangers are either busy looking to pocket someone's balls or hang out near the pool where the babes are swimming. Having a staff person who is visible and actively monitoring the situation at hand is critical to get the cows moving. If you fail with the first few groups the whole situation collapses like a house of cards!

Also -- does the course provide adequate and reasonable intervals for play? Too often on a short par-4, in this case it's the opening hole, you have people just walking onto the green and the next group is firing away from the tee. It's important that pace of play start right at the 1st hole. Why not have the first group putt out before the next group hits from the tee?

As far as the other holes are concerned I'd have to ask if the beverage cart routinely makes stops in these early holes? Are players going directly to their ball or do they have to trudge to each player's ball and jawbone about the ball game that was on the night before?

Many of these courses have the same people playing them time after time and it's important for course personnel to chart the amount of time and if the groups can't reasonably improve their pace of play then access to tee times should be denied for certain preferred times (i.e. morning ones especially).

Tim, the message starts at the top. If a facility consistently and aggressively deals with pace of play issues eventually the cattle (i.e. slow pokes) will either pick up the pace or go to another pasture and do their moooooooooing over there.

More often, from my personal experiences, the management at many places has an easy time on identifying juniors or women as slow players, however, fails to go after the regulars who believe they are special to the game and that if it takes them five minutes to line-up a putt then so be it.

When cozy relationships develop you then have a situation where management sees their role in protecting the existing power groups at that facility.

[Dan King]

Matt_Ward writes:
The reason why daily fee courses should care about slow play is as simple as can be -- MAKE MORE $$$$!

Let's imagine a course charges $100 a golfer, and has seven minute tee times and rounds that take five hours, and a full tee sheet.

Let's imagine there is another course in the area that charges $100 a golfer, has 10 minute tee times, round take three hours, and has a full tee sheet.

One course will have appr. 172 golfers on it at any one time, the other only 72. Which course do you think will have higher beer cart sales?

Assuming the first course can continue the seven minute tee times (the slow down is somewhere other than the first hole) which course is going to bring in more money? This isn't a trick question. There is an easy answer.

However, if the five-hour-round course starts losing customers, and their tee sheet stops filling up, then the equation should change. Suddenly the policies of the second course look more appealing. That's why it is up to us as golfers to convince course operators by boycotting those with poor pace-of-play policies. We can't blame the courses and wait for them to go against their bottom-line instincts. We have to give them financial incentive to want to improve their pace of play.

Dan King

"They ought to invoke the same-day rule."
 --Paul Azinger (on the slow play of the Langer/Faldo team at the 1995 Ryder Cup)

[Jack]

It is hopeless.

Play is excruciatingly slow for one principal and intractable reason - MOST PLAYERS DON"T REALLY MIND.

Course managers can't fix this nor can efficient designs, routings and procedures.

Slow Play has become the norm and socially acceptable. It will take great sociological forces to undo it.

The best analogy I can think of is illegitimacy. Bearing children out of wedlock is socially acceptable and so is a 5 hour round of golf...........

To most everyone but me and maybe a few of you.

[Tim Weiman]

Matt Ward:

Thanks. In the situation I described rangers WERE frequently present, but they really didn't do anything except stand there. What's more, I'm not sure what they could have done.

Once players went off the first tee right behind the proceeding group, all seemed to be lost. Dan King speaks to the economics of increasing the starting interval. I'm not sure I have a rebuttal to Dan's point.

Being raised to move along on a golf course, I'm far more at home in Ireland than here in the States. By Ireland I guess I really mean Ballybunion where I frequently visit. The locals rarely play anything other than no fuss, match play with players out of a hole quickly picking up and getting out of the way.

I'm not optimistic we could ever bring that spirit here to the States. It would just be nice if we Americans would stop exporting our slow play bad habits.

[ForkaB]

Dano

Didn't you used to be a NASA rocket scientist?  I think all this Japanese Poetry stuff has mushed your brain, or perhaps you were just trying to spoof us when you implied that slow players could accommodate narrower tee time intervals that fast players.  If you make such ridiculous assumptions, of course your "math" will work!

Let's get back to reality.

If you have 3 hour rounds you can get people off the tee at 5 minute intervals (180/18/2).  Assuming 12 hours of daylight and having everybody able to play 18, this allows for 9 hours of tee times, with 48 players per hour (60/5*4).  Total rounds = 432.  At $100/round this is $43,200 in revenue.

If you have 6 hour rounds you can get people off the tee at 10 minute intervals( 360/18/2).  Assuming 12 hours of daylight and having everybody able to play 18, this allows for 6 hours of tee times, with 24 players per hour (60/10*4).   Total rounds = 144.  At $100/round this is $14,400 in revenue.

Now I know this is all theoretical and exaggerated (of course, so was your straw man!), but it seems to me that you would have to sell one helluva lot of beer to make up that gap in income.

By your logic, airlines should just circle airports for an extra hour or two in order to increase their beverage sales.........

[Dan King]

Rich Goodale writes:
Assuming 12 hours of daylight and having everybody able to play 18

Now that you are in Scotland, you forget about the Bay Area. In the land of the full tee sheet, the courses don't care that everyone finishes, they just care that everyone starts. The reality is the faster you send groups out, the more bottlenecks, and the slower the round will go. There is nobody around here getting people out in five minute intervals.

I've never played anywhere that gave refunds for those that didn't finish before sunset. Many give a twilight rate after a certain time, but no money back when it is dark and you are only on the 12th hole.

Your example is comparing people who finish, not people who start. The course gets money when you start your round. What is the financial incentive for a course to try and get golfers off their course fast?

Dan King

"If four players are ranged in line across a wide fairway there in no earthly reason why each of them should not be calculating the shot, selecting a club and taking up a stance more or less simultaneously. The setting up of a golf shot can be as ponderous as the loading of a Roman siege catapult, with interminable adjustments to range and aim before finally the carcass of a dead horse is hoisted into the middle launcher. Lobbing four dead horses over the parapet takes an age, which is how it works in golf if three crews of loaders and launchers sit down and watch while the fourth goes into action."
  --Peter Dobereiner

[ForkaB]

Dan

The financial incentive of getting players off the course fast is that you can get substantially more revenue from the course for little additional expense.  In the real world (which even includes the Bay Area, at times) this is what economics is all about.

[Jack]

Rich and Dan,

In comparing the rates of play and its effect on revenue one has to hold other variables constant for the comparison to have any validity.

When you do that it is simple - courses benefit from faster rates of play.

In fact, most courses encourage faster play for this reason.

If you don't hold other variables constant  it gets complicated in a hurry and one needs to employ sophisticaed models such as regression analysis.

What I find most interesting in this thread is how some would suggest that slow play is a technical problem that could be cured by the golf course managers. Cicero and Charlie Brown had it about right - we have met the enemy and it is us.

The root cause for slow play is simple - most players like to play slow!!

It is really not about optimizing routes or adding procedures.

By the way I have seen several studies that concluded that the practice of "calling up" on par 3s actually had a net effect of slowing play. I often point this out when I am standing in a par 3 tee box to my partners and they think I am nuts and bordering on the sacrilegious.

[ForkaB]

Jack

You said what I said, which is the obvious, that faster play = more revenue.  Of course, that is all other things being equal.  You are also right that the reason we don't have faster play is because the great majority of the players don't want to play fast.  Those of us who do just try to find ways of end-running this lathesome fact--even to the extent of moving to Scotland!

PS--it was Pogo who first said "We have met the enemy and he is us."  This was a clever reconstruction of a quote from Admiral Perry, not Cicero.  Cheers.

[Jack]

Hey Rich,

Thanks for the info on Pogo - I need to stop saying Charlie Brown. I do think Cicero had something to do with this but I was unaware of the Admiral Perry connection. This may all be an urban legend and the real source of this quote may turn out to be Professor Vinnie Boombatz.

Anyhow I absolutely agree that the current best cure for slow play is avoidance. I avoid it like the plague and like others have gotten fairly creative in my avoidance schemes. One of my favorites is to carefully watch the forecast and get to a muni right after the inclement weather passes.

[Dan King]

Jack writes:
In comparing the rates of play and its effect on revenue one has to hold other variables constant for the comparison to have any validity.

When you do that it is simple - courses benefit from faster rates of play.

I'm confused. Maybe you'll need to use smaller words.

Course A has seven minute tee times, has a full tee sheet, and gets everyone off the first tee in time, charges $100, and rounds take five hours.

Course B has seven minute tee times, has a full tee sheet, and gets everyone off the first tee in time, charge $100, and rounds take three hours.

How does course B make more money than course A? Maybe I'm missing something, but both seem to take in exactly the same amount in green fees, but course A has a fuller course and can sell them more things.

Dan King

Cyril Walker played so slowly they asked him to hurry up, and he became abusive. He said, "Who the hell are you? I'm, an ex-U.S. Open Champion." This was about 1931, he won the Open in 1924. He said he came out 3,000 miles to play in their diddy-bump tournament (L.A. Open), and they couldn't kick him out, he'd play as slow as he damn well pleased. Well, when he came to the ninth hole, they told him he was disqualified and he said, "The hell I am! I came here to play and I'm going to play." So these two officers picked him up by the elbows and I can still see him being carried up the hill, kicking his legs like a banshee -- he was a small man.
 --Paul Runyan

[A_Clay_Man]

Let's let the lemmings run the asylum. People want to play slow? Bullsheee. They just don't know any better is the real truth. A course can take charge of the lemming by not only asking nicely but having a real emphasis on pace.

The first time I was introduced to the managment wanting fast players was basically a threat, that if you didn't, you wouldn't be given the 5;20 am tee time on Sundays the following year. It was a very effective use of leverage and the results were 3 hr rounds.

I received my invite from the USGA yesterday and it included all the hyperbole of how the USGA is out there with me for me and by me. BUllsheeee. I don't think I have ever seen a public service announcement that emphasises slow play and if I have I haven't seen enough.

Courses need to institue the "new cruelty" and for the very few, who don't want to respect the rest of us, they can tee it up elsewhere.

[Jack]

Hi Dan

The concept is rather simple. The premise goes like this - courses make most of their money from greens fees. If the average rate of play is faster they then have more capacity. More capacity , more greens fees. It is that simple.

Increased capacity would not always equate to more revenue but it often would.

Rich said all of this very well I thought.

Hi Clay Man,

I think you are partly right. I agree that many players have been brought up on slow play and have not learned to appreciate faster play. Cause and effect is a bitch. Do they like slow play because that is all they know or are they just genetically predisposed to liking it?

I don't know the answer but I do believe that most players are much more tolerant of slow play  me and you are.

Jack

[Dan King]

Jack writes:
More capacity , more greens fees. It is that simple.

It's not a restaurant with a maximum seating capacity, it's more like a large amusement park. The amusement park doesn't need to get you through the park quickly, just through the admissions line quickly. Once you are in the park, they are in no hurry to have you leave. Turnover is not the important element to improving capacity. Getting people through the turnstile is important.

Courses get money for everyone who starts playing from the first tee. As long as they ensure everyone gets off the first tee in a timely manner so they can then get the next group out on the course, they have no financial incentive to see you finish quickly. The only critical hole financially is the first. After that, the more golfers they can fit on the course, the more they can sell them things.

The only financial reason is from customer service. If the course is too slow, people start to boycott the course, and the tee sheet stops filling. Amazingly, American golfers have proven to be willing to put up with incredibly slow golf before boycotting.

Dan King

You must remember this;
A kiss is just a kiss,
A sigh is just a sigh --
The fundamental things apply
As time goes by.
 --Herman Hupfeld

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