Scramble Question

[mike_malone]

 While I understand that the USGA rules do not govern scrambles,I have a question.

    If the best shot lands in the water but there are areas within the hazard line that afford a shot can you place the ball within a club length outside of the water and play without penalty?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Assuming the other three are either in the water or OB, and the best ball is one that has some sort of better angle to the green/pin, why would there be no penalty ?

[A_Clay_Man]

Mike Malone- Scrambles usually have a same surface rule. In other words; The ball mmust be played from the same surface as where the choosen ball lays. Or swims.

[mike_malone]

 Would tree roots be a "same surface"? Would a plugged lie in a bunker be a "same surface"? There seems to be agreement that you do not need to play from the roots or the plugged lie.

[JDoyle]

I played in a scramble where this happened to my group.  We were all in the water except for one ball that ended-up on a lilly pad within the hazzard.  We were allowed to drop within one club length - which put us on dry land outside of the hazzard.

I never understood the ruling and thought it was an obvious mistake.  Even though the scramble rules allow you to drop within a club length of your original position, I do not think you can move your balll outside of a hazzard.  We should have been left with the option of playing our ball off the lilly pad or moving it one club length within the hazzard - but not out of the hazzard.

We certainly have many posters on this site that have real experience as tournament officials and know the rules much better than I do.  I just wanted to share this personal experience.

[A_Clay_Man]

Mike- Since a laying-on of hands, is a given in a scramble, playing from those lies, is not necc.

My point was: You cannot place your ball in a fairway when the chosen is in the rough. So why should you be able to play outside of a hazard, when the chosen ball is in it?

[mike_malone]

 In this example,you stay within the hazard just not in the water.We have a few places where I play that could lead to a wide open shot to the green after the placement .

[THuckaby2]

Rules officials will likely be the WORST people to answer this one, given there are no codified USGA or R&A rules for scrambles for them to refer to.  Their judgment will likely be simply "it isn't golf, so why ask?"  

It's really catch as catch can.  That is, anyone running a scramble can create whatever rules he wants.  In general Adam has it right:  most do play the "same condition" rule.  So no, you can't drop out of the water without penalty.  But even under that, as you can tell, Jonathan's situation was perfectly "legal".  They dropped from an ostensibly playable condition in a hazard, within one club-length, to another playable condition.  I'd say this is stretching the "rules" to their breaking point, but not past such.  

In any case, since there are no real rules, there is no definitive answer to Mike's question, other than to say it would be a pretty lenient competition indeed in which one could drop from a penalized situation to a non-penalized one.

It is a good question though.  And it's also strange to me that the USGA doesn't go ahead and make some official rules for scramble, given it is played so damn frequently (nearly every charity tourney).  But that's a separate question....

TH

[mike_malone]

 People choose to play from hazards all the time.It seems that only in a scramble does the chance arise to improve your lie within a hazard.
   We were having fun with this at our member-member dinner last night.I think in the end we just need a clear statement before play starts as to our local rule on this.

[THuckaby2]

Again, given there really are no rules, my personal take is that the idea in a scramble is to drop as near to the ball taken as possible, without improving the condition that it's in.  By that I mean, the point is to play four balls from the same place, and improving the lie is just a necessary evil of that process.  So allowing one to go from in the water - completely unplayable - to any form of playable condition just seems wrong to me.  But hell, scrambles are basically legalized cheating anyway, so it's tough to get too hard-ass about any rules!

That just seems to me to be stretching things too far.  Jonathan's scenario BARELY makes it under what I'd see as OK... but in the water to out of it?  By all sense of fairness that just seems wrong.

But again, that's just me.  I have played in a LOT of scrambles, and I sure as hell can imagine a team doing this.  So maybe that's the over-riding thought here... teams are gonna do whatever it takes to get a playable shot anyway, so trying to make hard-ass rules that aren't gonna be followed might not be worth the effort.

But it still seems wrong!

 

[wsmorrison]

I don't play in many scrambles, I don't like the concept so consequently I don't find it much fun.  I agree with Tom Huckaby's outlook on the matter completely.  Mike, why don't you lead by example and refuse to stretch the rules so thin.  

My opinion starts at your example:
"If the best shot lands in the water but there are areas within the hazard line that afford a shot can you place the ball within a club length outside of the water and play without penalty?"

By my definition, the ball that lands in the water is clearly not the best shot; another ball not in the water would be.  If the other shots are OB, take your penalty and all are hitting accordingly.

[THuckaby2]

Just one clarification:  I actually DO like playing in scrambles, because for me it's very relaxed golf where one can only be a hero as the bad shots don't count!  I just don't take them very seriously, and surely don't treat one-day scramble events as real competitiion.

What makes rules questions about them so tough is it's hard to put strict rules on such a goofy form of golf.

But Mike, it your club is taking this seriously - as it seems you would in a Member-Member, than I'm with Wayne - set an example of NOT stretching the real rules of golf too far.  That would seem to go with the character of your event, no?

TH

[mike_malone]

 Of course--I would not hit it in the water.   My concern is for the field.We need some clarity to proceed.

[Mike Benham]

The situation described is why you buy "Mulligans" ...

If your best shot is in a hazard you don't have any chance of winning anyway ...

Your penalty should be that you have to skip the next beer hole ...

[A_Clay_Man]

MM- The ruling is NO! You cannot play from anywhere other than the pre-determined distance from the choosen ball.  I like scorecard lengths. When I hear this one club distance rule, I always smell B.S.

Two-man scrambles are much better, at least there is some acountability.

[johnk]

Mike B is right - you ain't gonna win if your best option involves a hazard.

Playing in scrambles twice a year or so can be really good for your putting confidence.  If you go last, you get 2 or 3 good looks, and can really give it a run.  You can make a lot of 15 footers if you are confident of the line.

Playing in a scramble shows what it is to play without fear (let's go for it! on every shot! Woo-hoo!) and with more knowledge of the greens than you'll ever have by yourself.

[David Wigler]

Rules officials will likely be the WORST people to answer this one, given there are no codified USGA or R&A rules for scrambles for them to refer to.  Their judgment will likely be simply "it isn't golf, so why ask?"  

It's really catch as catch can.  That is, anyone running a scramble can create whatever rules he wants.  In general Adam has it right:  most do play the "same condition" rule.  So no, you can't drop out of the water without penalty.  But even under that, as you can tell, Jonathan's situation was perfectly "legal".  They dropped from an ostensibly playable condition in a hazard, within one club-length, to another playable condition.  I'd say this is stretching the "rules" to their breaking point, but not past such.  

In any case, since there are no real rules, there is no definitive answer to Mike's question, other than to say it would be a pretty lenient competition indeed in which one could drop from a penalized situation to a non-penalized one.

It is a good question though.  And it's also strange to me that the USGA doesn't go ahead and make some official rules for scramble, given it is played so damn frequently (nearly every charity tourney).  But that's a separate question....

TH

Huckster,

I would pay good money to sit in the room as some of the stuffed shirts at the USGA debated the way to write the rules for a strip club scramble in regards to how close the strippers can place their legs to the hole  .

[THuckaby2]

 

Yes, that would be worth the price of admission.

But seriously, putting aside the added attractions that occur at some scrambles, it seems to me that it wouldn't be too difficult to come up with some standard rules for this form of golf.  There are plenty of rules in place for better ball and foursomes...

TH

[THuckaby2]

As to the ruling -- if the ball is in the hazard and you can drop within the legal limit from where the ball lays and still be in the hazard, then absolutely you can play that way.  That's no different than all 4 guys playing from a bunker or when a ball is barely on the fringe but there's a pitch mark in front of it and you want to drop sideways but stay on the fringe no closer to the hole and avoid the pitchmark.  Now if a ball lies on the edge of the bunker or right on the edge of the water or on the fringe and you want to take a drop outside the bunker or outside the water or on the green no closer to the hole, no chance in hell you get that drop!    

The way you seem to treat the rules, it sure as hell doesn't surprise me your scramble teams are always in contention. Come on Dave - he's talking about taking a ball from IN THE WATER and therefore unplayable by those not named Jesus Christ to a position that is playable.  If that isn't too much lie improvement, than I am not the aw-shucks peon king of Clorox.  Sure the other things improve condition, but this is taking it too far.

I have no idea how to correctly codify this, btw.  Know any good lawyers who could figure this out?

 

TH

[Mike Benham]

But seriously, putting aside the added attractions that occur at some scrambles, it seems to me that it wouldn't be too difficult to come up with some standard rules for this form of golf.  There are plenty of rules in place for better ball and foursomes...

TH

I didn't realize you were a big Joe Walsh fan ...

If, as you have attested to on many occasions, that most Joe 6-pack golfers fail to follow the official Rules of Golf, what makes you believe they will follow the rules of A Scramble ... rmember, these are people who play less golf then the average Joe 6-pack per year and with less regard for the rules ...

[Mike Benham]

It should not suprise many here that I enjoy scrambles and it may not even surprise many here that my scramble teams are almost always in the money.  

Is this more of a statement to your golfing ability, your profession or the fact that your pencils have erasers?  

[JohnV]

Do you think that if your ball was in a bunker within one club length of the edge of the bunker you could put the other balls outside?  If so, then I guess you could get out of the water hazard for free also.

My answer for scramble questions is "Call Buick."

I believe the Buick Scramble has pretty complete rules on what you can and can't do.  For example I believe they wave the rule about standing behind your partner while he putts.

[mike_malone]

John,
  Thanks for your "buick" advice.The situation does not call for taking the ball out of the hazard line just the water.As for the bunker situation you mention, the example would be taking the ball out of a plugged lie and placing it within the bunker but on the top of the sand.

[A_Clay_Man]

Mike- YOU CAN TOUCH THE BALL. A plugged lie (anywhere) is not an issue.

The only way you can do what you propose, move the ball out of water, is if that dry land is within the pre-described distance all shots must be played from.

[mike_malone]

The assumption is that the land is within a club length.We have such a hazard on my course that many people hit.

  I checked the Buick rules--not specific enough in the book,but allowed an email--waiting response.