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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2004, 10:32:18 PM »
David,
   I haven't discerned any advantageous position to approach the green from on #9. Given the much greater number of rounds you have played there, what do the standard pin positioins dictate in your opinion? I am particularly interested in your viewpoint since our games are about the same.
   Also, what do the various pin positions on #12 dictate to you off the tee?
   You know I love the course. I play more rounds there than any other course in Calif., and I live 350 miles away! But I know I still have a lot to learn about the course, and in no way consider myself a Rustic expert. I am just stating preferences.
    See you soon. 8)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2004, 10:32:44 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

DMoriarty

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2004, 01:45:30 AM »
Ed, I probably should have stayed silent . . . I think this an interesting topic and am sorry to see it end up another Rustic back and forth.   Not that I mind discussing Rustic, I just dont want to hijack a thread doing it.   So perhaps we need another thread or two . . . I saw you tried, hopefully some who have played both will respond.  I may start one or more my self . . . after all, it has been since last week since I annoyed and/or angered anyone.  

As for No. 9 there are most definitely different approach options for different pins, but like much else there the 9th green doesnt "dictate" any particular play.   Nonetheless, at the risk of causing yet another disagreement, I'll name a few considerations with the pin that many consider the easiest and most straightforward--  The half bowl at the front left of the green.  

At first look this seems a good pin for birdie (eagle?) and sometimes is, but in my observation it sure helps to approach from tight to the left hand side.  Approaches from the center and the right must take on the sloping front fringe and the bowl walls at an angle.  This seems tricky for golfers of all abilities, no matter what the approach distance (or putt). From the right side one is hitting straight up the canyon and can use the bowl walls to keep it relatively close.  In contrast, two of the options from the center or right are to drop it into the back right corner of the bowl and use the slope to hold it in there or to hit a bouncing\rolling shot left and above the bowl to roll it into bowl via the backdoor.   It gets too complicated to explain by typing.  It is best if we just play the hole a few more times and you can see for yourself.  

Tommy's graphic is somewhat misleading as it is difficult to tell that No. 1 and No 9 fairway are connected near the first tee, so it is possible (and sometimes preferable) to come in from well right of No. 9.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2004, 02:27:11 AM »
Man your tough! ;)

Does this work better? It better, its directly from the aerial! :P


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2004, 12:54:36 PM »
David,
  I understand exactly what you are saying and agree with your assessment.
   If the pin is back left up on that little shelf, what is the play?
   When the pin is up above the bowl near the "corner", what is the play?
    I will start a seperate thread after this, to discuss some other points. Thanks for your viewpoint. Thats all I ask, I am not going to condemn you for your opinion. I think it is silly when some on this site solicit opinions and then jump down someones' throat when they don't agree.
   
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2004, 01:43:22 PM »
Quote
I think it is silly when some ... solicit opinions and then jump down someones' throat when they don't agree.

Ed, it's called marriage! ::) :-X ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

DMoriarty

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2004, 01:42:24 AM »
David,
  I understand exactly what you are saying and agree with your assessment.
   If the pin is back left up on that little shelf, what is the play?
   When the pin is up above the bowl near the "corner", what is the play?
    I will start a seperate thread after this, to discuss some other points. Thanks for your viewpoint. Thats all I ask, I am not going to condemn you for your opinion. I think it is silly when some on this site solicit opinions and then jump down someones' throat when they don't agree.

For the pin on the back left shelf, I think from the right may be the best angle.  But way right; almost in front of the first tee, well right of the black line on Tommy's drawing.  Takes the bowl out of play.  Also a better view.  But I did see Gib play to that pin from the far left . . . hit a low low ball which bounded through the bowl and up on the top ledge.   But that is Gib.

As for the pin above the right edge of the corner, that is a very good pin.  The main issue is getting it over the swale without going to far.  I still prefer approaching from the far right because it requires less precise distance control.  From the middle right one can play right and long of the swale with a right to left shape and the ball will feed right.  One can also bounce and check it, through the swale from the left.  Or throw it high with perfect distance and perfect spin.  

As you probably know, because the green is so much higher than the fairway it is really tough to judge distance on this hole.  I like the right (right of the trap) because one can see the green better.  

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2004, 03:16:02 AM »
David,
Lets call the green a "subtle" higher, otherwise when saying "the green is so much higher than the fairway" it could spark visions of Art Hills in some of these guys heads!

TEPaul

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2004, 04:10:28 AM »
In the last number of years and since I got addicted to golf architecture, there've been a good number of cool and interesting courses all over the damn place that have grown on me bigtime.

At this point, all I can say is, thank God my father-in-law is a world class dermatologist or I just might have things like skin growths and rashes that'd be completely unbearable!

ForkaB

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2004, 04:55:47 AM »
Tom

Get back on topic!  Don't you know this thread is about Rustic Canyon? ::)

TEPaul

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2004, 05:01:50 AM »
Rich (The Magnificent);

I can see this thread has morphed into another Rustic discussion, thereby violating the David Moriarty etiquette of golf course architecture web-site discussion.

And I'm glad you mentioned Rustic Canyon in this thread about courses that grown on you. Rustic Canyon truly grew on me and it grew on me even before it was actually built! Go put that one in your middle school existentialist pipe and smoke it for a while and get back to me on it!

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2004, 08:16:11 AM »
Tom, You forgot to tell him to kiss your ass, so I'll tell him for you.

Rich,
Kiss my big fat ass. This should give you enough ass to kiss for the rest of the year. ;D

ForkaB

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2004, 08:41:22 AM »
Hiya, Tommy!

Long time, no seagulls.....

We all know that TEP designed Rustic Canyon when Hanse, Wagner and Shackelford flew him out there in 2001 to teach them about Maintenance Meld.

I have this vision of your inimitable butt being reincarnated as the Blarney Stone when you finally (hopefully no time soon!) go off to that Devil's Asshole in the sky.  If and when this happens, I can't wait to see Huckaby's face when he leans over to kiss you..........

As for the topic of this thread, I'll offer Pitreavie.  MacK did some not bad stuff there.  I'm warming to it, slowly, but inevitably, like global warming, or cooling......

TEPaul

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2004, 08:56:06 AM »
"We all know that TEP designed Rustic Canyon when Hanse, Wagner and Shackelford flew him out there in 2001 to teach them about Maintenance Meld."

I did? Wow, that's really cool and neat. Why didn't someone tell me before now. The fact that I've never seen Rustic Canyon built shouldn't effect that I suppose. Matter of fact I never even saw Rustic Canyon after the first spade hit the ground, but so what to that too! Who did the independent reserach on who designed that course----Tom MacWood?  ;)

TEPaul

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2004, 09:00:38 AM »
"As for the topic of this thread, I'll offer Pitreavie.  MacK did some not bad stuff there."

Rich:

I'm not too clear on what you're really saying and feeling there. When you say "bad stuff" would that be in our lexicon or the lexicon of one of my beloved North Philadelphia African-American street-corners?

THuckaby2

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2004, 10:54:49 AM »
DS - I'm impressed you remember anything about TKPIII given the stress you were under.  But you have the wind correct - it was howling against on 9.  That was no great shakes... where it really killed us was 13!

And I'm with you re #9, which grows on me the more I think about it and the more I play it.  There is a hell of a lot more going on there than initially meets the eye.  That green is VERY cool and I can see different strategies based on different pins, as Dave M. describes.  But still, it is indeed a hole where length MIGHT BE rewarded over tactics, and that is a nice change of pace over the holes prior to it.  What's also cool though is that even on that hole, where tactics would seem to have the least effect of any hole on the course, a thoughtful tactician can still compete with a long bomber... I'm thinking that given certain pins, on in two on the wrong side of the green won't be much better, if it's better at all, than 75 yards short coming from the proper angle... if said short tactician had a good wedge/approach game, anyway.

 ;)

THuckaby2

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2004, 11:09:46 AM »
What I find interesting is the tacit admission by our friend Tommy M. that on a hole like #2 at RC, width is code-language for "easy".  He tries to hit it left, but the guys he plays with believe that he's intentionally playing from the right side.  In other words, you can spray it and get away with it and the lesser option is close enough in terms of difficulty to the preferred option that they guys you're playing with think you hit it there on purpose.  Hmmm......

Duly noted.  But staying the hell out of that I am (insert yoda voice).   ;)

DMoriarty

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2004, 04:34:30 PM »
What I find interesting is the tacit admission by our friend Tommy M. that on a hole like #2 at RC, width is code-language for "easy".  He tries to hit it left, but the guys he plays with believe that he's intentionally playing from the right side.  In other words, you can spray it and get away with it and the lesser option is close enough in terms of difficulty to the preferred option that they guys you're playing with think you hit it there on purpose.  Hmmm......

We think he goes that way because he is always on that side.  Plus, Tommy used to argue that playing right was a better play for certain pin positions-- namely those back right.  I disagree, but wouldnt be surprised if some regular golfers agree.  Or perhaps he was just arguing that because he had trouble getting it on the left side.  

That aside, you are ahead of yourself with regards to your conclusion.  The big reason to avoid the left is that one has to flirt with the out OB off the tee.  While many risk it, others don't or do so half-heartedly (Tommy's game is too controlled to always miss the left side; his heart must not be in it.)  For example, I often play to the middle or right, knowing that I will probably be intentionally playing my next left of the green, for position on my third.  Better golfers might also go right, but in so doing they are greatly diminishing their chance at birdie and even par.  If one option was always vastly superior, then why have options at all?  

Guys, lets give this thread back to the author . . . I'll start another thread or two so we can continue this if  you want.
___________________

Back to topic.   Shouldnt ("growing on you") be a prerequisite for deeming a course great, or perhaps even good?  

This topic makes me wonder how so many have such strong opinions about which they have seen so little.  

THuckaby2

Re:Courses that grow on you
« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2004, 04:49:02 PM »
Back to topic.   Shouldnt ("growing on you") be a prerequisite for deeming a course great, or perhaps even good?    

Darn right.  I can't imagine a great course that doesn't get better with each playing.  If it doesn't, it isn't great.

I think a "good" course could exist without this, but that depends on what one calls good.  As you likely know, for me personally it takes a lot for a course not to be called good.   ;)

But what I think shooter is looking for here are courses that PARTICULARLY grow on you.  That is, that don't seem like much at first, but then the greatness dawns on one through multiple playings.  For that, it takes a subtlety in order to NOT seem great at first, if that makes any sense.  Courses like Rustic, The Old Course, others mentioned here fit this.  Others seem too good at first to get SO much better in perception as time goes on.  But still they do need to keep revealing and keep getting better to be called truly great.

As for opining on courses about which people have seen so little, well... I tried to get people to discuss Santa Teresa.   ;)  

Great courses also elicit strong opinions, methinks.  Especially when so many people have actually played the course.

TH
« Last Edit: September 07, 2004, 04:51:20 PM by Tom Huckaby »