In Praise of Fazio

[Mike Hendren]

Within the past 90 days I enjoyed his re-work of the Seaside course at Sea Island and his Members Club At Alderra outside of Seattle.  His re-routing of the former appeared seamless and his bunker work remained faithful to the original massive sweeping style for which the course is so noted.  At Alderra, I found his green contours to be outstanding and his bunker work surprisingly small and well-shaped.  The sweeping 420 dogleg 8th was one of my favorite holes played this year.

So sue me!

Mike

[Keith Williams]

Whoa there partner, with talk like that you are likely to get sued  

Seriously, I have heard lots of praise regarding Seaside from others, so I guess that job is legit, just as long as nobody is claiming it was a restoration...

BTW- what did you think about Schaeffer & Ainge this past weekend?

Keith.

[Mike Hendren]

BTW- what did you think about Schaeffer & Ainge this past weekend?

I think LSU would be lucky to have either one.  R. Clausen is looking better all the time - huh TigerB?

Mike

[ed_getka]

Mike,
  You'll be hearing from my lawyer! Running the roads to rack up frequent flier miles seems as good a reason as any to play a Fazio course, while awaiting your next flight.
    Have you played that course by Fazio that the PGA played on this year? I think it started with an M.... Glad to hear you enjoyed the courses. What is the green fee at Seaside?

[Mike Hendren]

Fazio builds a good golf course every time.

Redan-o-matic,

That is a very succinct and accurate summation of his work.

"Too much of a good thing is a good thing."
- Alan Jackson

FWIW, where does Doak's work rank on The Fazio Scale?

Mike

[JakaB]

Fazio builds a good golf course every time.

He just should be doing better than that by now.  The Fazio percentabe of great courses is rather small, that's all anyone here can admit to with honesty.  He's got the Doak 5-6 plan knocked out cold.

Fazio's percentabe of great courses is higher than Ross's by some measure.....

[Mike Hendren]

Barney,

While you've recently been a bit rough on my boy DJR, your comment has merit.  In fact, I almost queried whether redanman's comments could have easily been directed at Ross.  I'm purely speculating that Ross has an incredibly wide body of work that grades out around a "6" for those prone to subjectively assign numbers to golf courses.    I find that to be a huge compliment, not damnation with faint praise.  

Mike

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Mike, hope you enjoyed your time in Seattle....see it really does rain all the time  

Although,I agree #8 at Alderra is a fine hole, you fail to mention the weaknesses at Alderra that keep it from being one of Fazio's best.  The up and downhill back to back par 5's, #11 & 12, may be the only holes keeeping this from being Fazio's best design.  Highlights include the #7 and the back side par threes #12 and 14.

Sorry I missed you.  We'll do Fircrest next time you visit.

[Mike Hendren]

Cos,

Hopefully I'll be invited back next year to teach at the banking school.   The routing at Alderra does lack a little bit to be desired, notably rather lengthy walks between 2 and 3 and back between 8 and 9.  I didn't necessarily mind the back to back par fives at 11 and 12 and thought 10 and 11 were solid uphill holes.  After taking you to the top of the course, Fazio should have taken better advantage with the 12th, as you pointed out.  The 14th is a beautiful hole from the tee, though a little busy around the green.  I also felt he had a Pete Dye-abolical moment at 17 with the sodded bunkers and extremely wide green.  

Great call on no. 7.  I really liked the size and orientation of the small fairway bunker left off the tee and doubt there is a modern architect living that would not readily take credit for the disguised figure-eight green.

Generally, solid green contouring with numerous false fronts and sides that put a premium on pitching, or use of the TX wedge for those of us lacking talent.  Overall, I really liked the scale of the course in the context of the surrounding environment.

Played TPC in a downpour with the highlight being a view of the rain swollen Snoqualmie Falls from the 12th tee.  
Alderra to TPC is 9/1 in ten plays.  

Mike

[DMoriarty]

FWIW, where does Doak's work rank on The Fazio Scale?

Mike

Has Fazio done anything as great as Pacific Dunes on anyone's scale?  

[JakaB]

David,

Does Golf Digest count...I'm not interested in giving you the numbers because I'm sure that in LA you must have wireless douche bags by now and no doubt the next time you are multitasking your vaginal maintenance meld you can look it up yourself..

[David Wigler]

FWIW, where does Doak's work rank on The Fazio Scale?

Mike

Has Fazio done anything as great as Pacific Dunes on anyone's scale?  

According to Golf Digest, Wade Hampton's exceeds it by ten places and Shadow Creek and Victoria National are immediately behind it in that order.  As well, no one would argue that of the four, Pacific Dunes had a vastly superior piece of property.

[Mike Hendren]

DavidM,

It would not be a stretch to speculate that there are those out there who would say Shadow Creek is in the same league as Pacific Dunes.  I have played neither and am not qualified to comment. Personally, I'm fairly confident that I would place Pacific Dunes well above any of Fazio's work.  

In hindsight, I might have given redanman too much credit as Fazio owns amost 20% of Golfweek's modern list and I'm guessing that "6's" don't make that cut.  

I tire of seeing Fazio's name tossed about derisively on this site.  I guess that's my point.  Just because you're in love with the craftsmen doesn't mean you have to disrespect the tradesmen.

[George Pazin]

Boy, I'll bet Mike Keiser is really regretting his choice....

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

Shadow Creek is in the same league as Pacific Dunes.

I've played both.

My leagues are pretty big.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Bill V is quite correct -- plenty of the TF work is in the mid-range (5-6) using the Doak scale.

I've personally played over 50 of his designs and only about 5-6 would be rated at the very high level for me. They include in no particular order:

Black Diamond (Quarry)
Galloway National
Glen Wild (UT)
Dallas National
Karsten Creek

Possibly, one or two others if I really thought about it. Such as Wade Hampton and Victoria National.

The key is the mass production effort that minimizes the fine details the ultra great courses possess. The ones I mentioned above have that IMHO.

David M:

Pacific Dunes is in the very elite of levels -- top 5 modern -- and deserving of its placement. However, just below Pac Dunes I would have all of the courses I just mentioned above among the top modern courses -- say no lower than top 50.

Fazio is capable in delivering a top quality the question comes down to why he doesn't on a more consistent basis from the ones I have played.

[David Wigler]

Boy, I'll bet Mike Keiser is really regretting his choice....

George,

Mike made the right choice.  For what it is worth, Steve Wynn made the right choice as well.  Different horses for different courses.  They both got what they wanted and what would work.

PS - I agree with Huckaby that they are in the same league although different as night and day.

[George Pazin]

To each his own. Great big world out there.

I know which ones I'll seek out first.

[THuckaby2]

Don't be so certain in your pre-conceived notions, George.  Aren't you the one who dislikes desert golf because any ball off the beaten path is lost almost for sure (among other reasons)?  That happens a lot at Pacific Dunes - lots of ball-eating dunes, scrub and high rough, kinda like desert golf in this respect.

It does not happen at Shadow Creek.  Nothing but grass, trees and some water.

Hey, I'm not saying Shadow Creek is as good as Pacific Dunes - it's not.  But it is pretty damn great, and it is in the same league, that league being world top 100 courses.

TH

[JakaB]

I don't care if I ever play Shadow Creek but Pacific Dunes is in Barney's Next Fifty.....it has nothing to do with Fazio vs Doak....kinda like this thread.  

[George Pazin]

Don't be so sure of your pre-conceived notion of my pre-conceived notions!

I didn't lose any balls at a couple more playable desert courses, one of them Fazio's Primm Valley course. Yawn.

If I want to play NC sandhills, I'll drive down and play the real thing.

[THuckaby2]

Well then that's that.  I had your notions wrong.

Just don't be so sure about what's what at Shadow Creek.  Opinions here about that course should be taken with a large dose of sodium.

 

[George Pazin]

I'd love to hear an actual opinion about the golf course at Shadow Creek, other than it's a marvel of engineering. Can't remember ever seeing one on here. Guess I haven't read every post.

[THuckaby2]

George:

You haven't read every post.  I for one have tried (in vain) to get a word in edgewise about the golf course.  Wigler and others have also.  We tend to get drowned out by the Anti-Fazists, and thus we give up, because life does remain quite short.  

In any case, it is a marvel of engineering, and that alone makes it very much worth seeing.  Beyond that though, it is VERY fun to play.  The holes that others trash as overdone eye-candy I find fascinating and want to play over and over again.

But yes, to each his own.  I expect a suitable word-whipping when and if a certain electrician reads this.

TH

[David Wigler]

I'd love to hear an actual opinion about the golf course at Shadow Creek, other than it's a marvel of engineering. Can't remember ever seeing one on here. Guess I haven't read every post.

George,

I have tried several times.  For one such review, I refer you to Tom Doak's Confidential Guide in his Gourmet Choices section.