Morgan hill by Kelly Moran

[mark chalfant]

Please comment

i saw some photos - looks very neat

[Mike_Cirba]

I played there last weekend.  I haven't spoken to redanman about it yet, so there is no brainwashing to date.

I'll post in detail tomorrow.

[JakaB]

How did this get to the second page.....come on boys...just because you may be joined at the hip don't get locked of lip.  Give Kelly a break and take the two minutes you give any other architect and write down what you think.

[Mike_Cirba]

Keep your pants on, John.  

What's a good review without building some hype and anticipatory excitement?  

I'll try to find the time tomorrow.

[Tom_Doak]

Wow that looks steep.  Kelly, would you mind sharing the numbers on some of the elevation changes shown?

Oh, yeah, someone else asked me if you would print out a complete scorecard from the back tees.  

[JakaB]

Is this a good site or a bad site..

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here are some quotes by Kelly in the September issue of Tri-State Golf, a freebie found at local courses and golf shops:
" This is going to be a big golf course"
"That's the steepest project I've worked on"
"We were able to allow each hole to fill up as much space as possible"
"The more you play it, the more you realize what you can play away from and when you can use the slopes"

I played the course about a month ago with Dan Hermann and our wives.My impressions:
It is a big course. Wide fairways. Big bunkers. Big greens. Elevation changes. Scenic vistas. It is a real estate development. The housing is not intrusive. Blind shots. Drop shots.Unwalkable.

There are some holes of note that are not pictured above. The par5 5th, an uphill 546y from the tips with church pew bunkering about 100y from an elevated green stands out as does the 11th, a par4 421y with a blind tee shot and the downhill approach to a bunkerless green.

I wish I played better there because it probably adveresly affected my overall experience. It is a course that needs more than one round to understand, at least for me. It was
an almost 5 hour round with carts allowed on the fairways. I don't know how they'll get the pace of play down. I don't
 think GPS carts will help. If I'm going to travel for a day trip to play, there are other places in the area that I'll go to
before returning to Morgan Hill. I hope there are enough locals in the Lehigh Valley to make this course a hit.

www.theclubatmorganhill.com


Steve

[George Pazin]

Now that we have photos, it shouldn't be difficult for everyone to come up with a group rating and get this course on the map! After all, that's what we're here for, isn't it?

The property looks pretty severe, especially for eastern PA. Where is it located? I always found eastern PA to be pretty flat, at least as compared to western PA. Of course, Lehigh CC isn't flat at all, so that just shows you what happens when you generalize.

I really like the look of the greensite on 15 - kind of perched out on that ledge. Cool.

Why is it unwalkable? The terrain or the green to tee walks?

Mike C -

Is this one of those things like "free drinks tomorrow"?

[Dan Herrmann]

I agree with Steve that MH is unwalkable.  The green-to-tee distances are sometimes long (that's OK) but they can be awfully hilly.  Also, some of the holes have pretty severe grades.  The starter told us that one person insisted on walking, but gave up after 9 holes and took a cart.

I think it was very difficult terrain to build a course on.  I sure wouldn't want to drive down the approach road during the winter!  Steep with switchbacks - this gives a good idea of what you're facing as you get to the course.

The site is just south of I-78 just east of the last exit in Pennsylvania.  There are superb views of the PA/NJ countryside and the City of Easton from several spots.

I like the use of the church pew bunkers - gave a classic look.  

I thought 7 was a super par 3.  It's a lot more of a downhill shot than it looks in the pictures.

Also, the greens were well designed with just the right amount of break.  A lesser design may have subjected the golfer to some circus putts due to the terrain.  I'm guessing that a lot of earth needed to be moved just to get a relatively level green surface.

And I like the green complex on #18.  Lots of interesting hole positions could result in anything from an easy 2-putt to a hard 4-putt.  You gotta check the pin position BEFORE you start!

I think it's a course you'd need to play several times to really get the jist of.  There are a lot of blind shots if your ball isn't in a perfect position (and as a 14 handicap, that's not too often!).  

The green on 13 was a problem for me too.  It's up on a shelf with a big drop off to the left.  I hit an 8-iron into the green with a draw - it was on the green, but rolled off the left side (due to the hook lie in the fairway) and bounded way to the bottom of the hill.  This problem will probably go away in the future once the course gets through its grow-in period.

In fact, that's why I hesitated to comment at first.  Morgan Hill is still going through grow-in, and it's definitely not the course today that it will be in a couple of years.

I just hope the developer doesn't overbuild homes on the site, but that's a fact of life in 2004, isn't it.

[Tyler Kearns]

Perhaps it is just the angle of the photos, but the left greenside bunker on #7 and both bunkers on #8 have a very odd appearance. The bunkers have very straight edges, and just do not fit the landscape very well in my opinion. It's strange, they do look similar to the sketches done by K.B. Moran in Golf Architecture Vol. 1. Having never played his courses, is this a bunker style of K.B. Moran? I know due to time constraints, the architect is not always present when the grounds crew cuts the sod surrounding the bunkers forming their edges, and perhaps this is why the lines are too horizontal?

Tyler Kearns  

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tyler,

Shame on you, man! You're not always present when the crew cuts the sod surrounding bunkers?!?!

Change your ways  

[Tyler Kearns]

 

[Matt_Ward]

Morgan Hill is an impressive triumph for Kelly Blake Moran. Yes, the course is unwalkable but frankly -- so what!

Steve asks if enough golfers from Pennsy will play there. The market for Morgan Hill isn't the Pennsy golfer who abhores any public golf more than $10 -- it's the Jersey market and with the convenient location -- the first exit after you cross the Delaware River there will be plenty coming to the course. The courses that will suffer from Morgan Hill are those beyond where it's located to the west on I-78.

Regarding the golf course -- superb green contours on a number of holes and unlike Moran's previous nearby work at Hawk Pointe the challenge faced from the tee is much more intense. You need to get the ball in preferred landing areas.

There are a number of unique and fun holes -- I really enjoyed the combo of the downhill par-4 4th and the uphill dog-leg right par-5 5th. Each is so utterly different from the other. The par-5 5th is quite delicious with the chain reaction bunker that cuts off the fairway. If you don't find the fairway with the tee shot the cross bunker really makes its presence felt. Think 4th hole at Bethpage Black lite.

The only three holes I really had less of a feeling for was the short par-4 10th -- it really looks like the architect was fighting to differentiate the land into something of quality. When you work the land that hard it becomes obvious to me you're trying tooooo hard. The dropshot par-3 12th was probably the most glaring example of "been there / done that" type of a hole. I mean there is a super drop shop par-3 already with the par-3 7th -- the 12th is simply filler of a much lesser sort and left me wanting much more. For example, if you want to see a hole that flies 360 degrees away from the lackluster 12th -- go to the uphill par-3 16th. What a golf hole indeed! The green is neatly angled and the approach had better be letter perfect to get close. The last hole that was more of a disappointment was the closing hole. The tee shot is quite neat with its blind aspect but overall the hole is a poor conclusion to a golf course that provides so much.

Morgan Hill reminds me of the success another architect (Ron Ferris) had with anm equally hilliy site in GC at Red Rock in Rapid City, SD. Both of the courses are well done and the match of the land and green contours is done with plenty of care and attention to getting the maximum shot values out of the holes that dot the landscape.

Few architects could have handled Morgan Hill with its abrupt twists and turns. Morgan Hill takes Moran IMHO to a different level than what he has designed previously. Anyone in the area should certainly play it IMHO.

[Matt_Ward]

One of the more unique holes at Morgan Hill is the par-5 1st hole which plays with the generally prevailing wind and is roughly 520 yards. The tee shot is most inviting and as the start hole that's a good thing to allow the players to give it a heave-ho with their first swing of the day. The fairway slides ever so softly from left-to-right and it pays not to hit the tee shot too far right or it will slide even further away from the optimum target line.

The second shot can reach the green if a solid tee ball is hit. The key? Dealing with a unique green site that Kelly completely created from nothing. There is a slight dip in front of the green and you can play from left-to-right to take advantage of a natural bounce from that side of the hole. Nonetheless, the green is sliced into two halves and should the pin be in the front it takes a herculean shot to land and sit tight in that small area.

I really like the hole because so many options are in play and players can score anywhere from 3-7 very quickly if they don't think / executive properly. Frankly, the first three holes at Morgan Hill are a par-5, par-4 and par-3 combo. All are really well done and then you have two of the better holes on the front with the par-4 4th and par-5 th which I have already explained.

One other point about weak holes -- the par-3 9th is really a major league letdown -- it simply serves as a connector between the beguiling par-4 8th and the interesting but yet over-produced / shaped par-4 10th IMHO.

Like I said -- Morgan Hill should not be dismissed because it is not walkable -- it is a well done routing on a very demanding site that includes a broad array of different situations that will make each shot their a true experience one will relish over and over again.

[Mike_Cirba]

(speaking in the dull monotone of the brainwashed)

I like it.  It is good.  Play Morgan Hill.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Woof...woof  

[Mike_Cirba]

Phew...ok...I finally have a few moments to type.  

Let me preface this by stating the contrary to John Kavanaugh's contentions, I have yet to speak to redanman about this course (although I owe him a phone call and I'm sure he's rightly miffed).  So, the thoughts contained herein are my own, pure of any redanmanistic overtones or contamination.  

I started trying to type this at work and it was turning into a novel, so let me instead try to work on some bullet points as they come off the top of my head...

* Just when you think that good golf can't be built on super sloped, hilly terrain, I found myself very pleasantly surprised.  I don't know the stats either, but there has to be a few hundred feet of elevation change on the property.  Factor in the housing considerations that often relegated the course to the toughest parts of the site, it must have taken a great deal of time and imagination to come up with the routing that Moran did.

* Speaking of the routing, it's very unlike what most architects would have created (segmented with long green to tee rides).  In fact, I would contend that the course is walkable, although I don't know why anyone would want to do that given the severity.  However, the course is as intimate and contiguous as is possible.  Almost every tee is within visible site of the previous green, and the course never feels like a "collection of holes", but instead, a well thought out interconnected layout.

* Kelly Moran has been spending too much time on this site, evidently, because the course is a virtual classic architectural laboratory, featuring among other things; wide, BIG fairways, center and diagonal bunkering, multiple routes, a wide variety of bunkering ranging from steep & deep Raynoresque stuff on sides of propped up greens on sideslopes, to the Muirfieldesque field of bunkers on the 15th hole, to the church-pew like fingers of bunkers that serve as "Hell bunker" type of obstacles on both the 5th and 13th par fives, contoured, imaginative greens, lack of forced carries, a Biarritz style green, no real trees in play, and on and on.

* Morgan Hill as FOUR (count em, FOUR) superb par fives.  How many courses can say that?  The 1st is as described by Matt above, except he forgot to mention that the right side of the green drops precipitously about 30 feet into scrubby death.  It's a superb starter and a 3 or 7 hole as Matt mentioned.  Better yet is the 5th, which is a long uphill par five where the aforementioned Hell bunker sits at the very crest of the hill, an all carry glory or hades shot that hides a diagnoal sliver of green about 100 yards beyond.  Similar in many respects to the 14th at St. Andrews, even down to the strangely enticing but elusive green.  The 13th is difficult to describe, but it's another uphill serpentine, bunker strewn, sloping roller-coaster that ends at a green perched sentinel-like above the landscape and falling away at all sides.  The 15th could do Pete Dye proud, utilizing a split fairway, severe side-sloping terrain, a field of bunkers to navigate, and a pie-pan of a green set in a beautiful valley.

I'll try to post more later, but let me first mention a couple of negatives...

* As mentioned, the course is still in the "grow-in" stage, particularly the greens.  They are beautifully and iimaginatively contoured, and thankfully, Moran resisted the urge to make them as wild as the surrounding terrain.  For instance, there is nothing quite as wild as the 7th and 8th greens at his nearby Hawk Pointe course, and on such a demanding, dramatic property as Morgan Hill, it would have been overkill.  However, the greens right now are a bit sluggish in pace, and thinly grassed and on the soft side.  In fact, the course itself could really shine if it was let to play very firm and fast and hopefully, that will be the way it's maintained.

* You need to be in shape to play this course, even with a cart.  I think I'm still leaning sideways a week and a half later.

More later...

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Tom Doak,

The elevation changes are as follows by picture:

#1: N/A relatively level for this course
#2 and #3- 42' downhill.  If you notice the back right pin area behind the bunker is really not deep enough to receive a shot of such length, about a 5 iron, but in the field it was too good to ignore so I made that area green, however fairway is to the right of the pin area so you can aim for that and bounce it into the pin area.  My playing partner and I did it a few weeks ago on our first attempts so I pleased that it worked.  Otherwise when the pin is there you really have to play left, or fade it in left to right but there is a pretty good slope that might spurn the ball back left.
#4- Par four teeshot is 50' downhill.  Approach shot is 30' uphill.
#5- Par 5 Teeshot is 22' uphill, Bridge shot is 45' uphill, and approach is level, depending on what part of the fairway you hit to on your bridge the elevation could actually be down to the green or up to the green.
#6- same hole
#7- N/A
#8 and #9- par 5 Tees hot is 36' uphill to main landing area; bridge shot is 56' downhill; approach shot is 14' downhill
#10 par 4- Teeshot is 110' downhill, approach shot is 50' downhill.  Note in the pic just beyond the left tee marker there is a slight upturn in the terrain, there is a bunker stuck in the back side of the slope.  A lot of room to hit to but the ball can get away from you because of the slopes, and the bunker is something to consider as well.  

Thanks for your interest, Mark C. (it was a pleasure to see you and play golf at the Creek Club) and Tom.

The par 3 Matt feels is a bridge between two good holes is 110' downhill.  It is too much elevation but you must make the hole something fun to play.  there is much slope around and through the green, with the idea being that the golfer may be surprised by the movement of the ball after it hits the green.  All the movement from the tee appears to be flattened out.  

Tyler,  I take full responsibility for the bunker lines.  No one marks bunker lines on my courses.  

It definately is a course that requires many visits to know, and either to enlighten you more about its qualities or to confirm your dislikes.  In any event if a golfer isn't willing to play any course multiple times to know it better then it is best they never came to play it in the beginning.  It is no fun to hold the golfers hand through the first time.  

I forgot to comment on Matt's post about hole #9.  There are some very interesting little slopes to the right of the green that make the hole fun.  Admittedly it is my least favorite because it seems a bit more like a prototype hole a Fazio or Rees might use on multiple courses, although it was designed in the field and not pulled from a file, I think it needed more time to develop, and I cut its design process short for whatever reasons unknown now.  There seems to be one hole like that on some projects, although you don't fully realize it until later,  although I am confident this did not happen on my one that is under construction now, but for the most part the last shaping was finished yesterday. I disagree with his comments about #10.  It is overshaped, but the greensite was built on a 40% slope so it took a lot of overshaping to get it to its current status. For me it is a fantastic little hole, a pond in front which has pin positions which are totally unaffected by the pond and have their own challenges and local knowledge that can help you overcome some of the overshaping in front of the pin areas.  

[JakaB]

Cirba,

I owe you an apology...what redanman thinks is a jockstrap in your hand is his leash...So I take it from you review that this is a great effort on a poor site......that Kelly met your expectations in potential performance thus making it a worthy course to visit......did Kelly do as could a Kelly can and do you expect him to do better next time because of this excellent effort.   Just let me know if I am wrong....but I have always felt that the Philidelphia school of architectural review is based more on potential than performance.

[Dan Herrmann]

It definately is a course that requires many visits to know, and either to enlighten you more about its qualities or to confirm your dislikes.  In any event if a golfer isn't willing to play any course multiple times to know it better then it is best they never came to play it in the beginning.  It is no fun to hold the golfers hand through the first time.  

Very well said - it's what differentiates a course like Morgan Hill from a lot of the cookie-cutter designs of, say, Myrtle Beach.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bill

I was just going to ask you about Blaukovitch's Riverview. How far is it from Morgan Hill?

Is a less than 5 hour round possible at Morgan Hill?

I'll put Morgan Hill on my list for a return visit next summer. It's very difficult for me to evaluate a course after a first time visit. KBM is right re this course. There are other courses where a first visit becomes an only visit.

KBM's Lederach will open next summer.

Steve

[redanman]

Yardage as requested by T Doak


519
423
240
437
546
443
201
348
159

3316


370
421
196
509
214
525
396
424
378

3433

6749

God only knows how much my estimates would be off on elevation changes.


Second(4)


Seventh(3)




Eighth(4)


Tenth(4)


Thirteenth(5)






Fifteenth(5)




Seventeenth(4)


Copied with some changed photos as they have now dropped off Tommy's site.


One more
The ninth par 3-a maligned hole at Morgan Hill.  Flattest hole on the course.