[TEPaul]

I don't believe our GOLFCLUBATLAS.com owner and administrator would mind me posting this quote from him to me in an email---and I'm doing it because I find it very interesting and thoughtful, and certainly something I'd never thought of before!

About a week ago I walked around Merion West with Merion Super Matt Shaeffer as Ran Morrissett and Merion Green Chairman Bill Greenwood played golf. Ran was using hickory clubs. I'm 60 years old and to be honest I can't remember ever seeing anyone play golf with real antique hickory golf clubs.

At one point I told Ran who was about to hit an approach shot what the distance was and he said--"I don't want to know that". That's when I really understood he took this more seriously than I suspected.

Ran's remark (quote) to me in the email when I mentioned I was impressed with how well he played with those hickory clubs was;

"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"

I think that remark is worth some real thought and probably some discussion on here!

[ed_getka]

Tom Paul,
  Thanks for sharing that. It would take a lot of time practicing with hickories to become proficient enough to get a feel for what the architect's intent was I would think. Plus, wouldn't you have to have the course maintained like it was when built to get a real feel for the architect's intent?
   That is a very cool image to have of Ran out playing Merion with hickories though. I haven't ever swung (I started to say hit when I realized that doesn't work with hickories) hickories, but I need to get up to Kingsley Club one of these years for their hickory tournament to try them out.

[Jeff_Mingay]

It would take a lot of time practicing with hickories to become proficient enough to get a feel for what the architect's intent was I would think.

Ed,

Not when you possess the natural golfing ability of Ran Morrissett  

[Brian_Gracely]

"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"

I think that remark is worth some real thought and probably some discussion on here!

Does Ran also play with balls from a prior period?  

[Jonathan Cummings]

Ran does use 1925 balls, although he 'feels the pain' when he losses a period ball.  He said they cost him $25 a piece!

In Jasper/Banff he and Rick Holland used refurbished Hickorys.  Rick (maybe Ran too) got these clubs, at no modest expense, from Ralph Livingston.

I'm here to tell you having played against both Ran and Rick that they hit a hickory driver only 10-20 yards behind the hi tech wonder bluster I carry in my bag.

These clubs are not as deficient as you may think!  Remember that Bobby Jones used to routinely hit his hickories 300+ yards (see his biography).

JC  

[Dan King]

I've swung hickory a time or two. It's tough being a mollydooker and finding hickory clubs. I have a few in my collection but not enough yet to make a set to go out and play golf with.

If you want a reasonable close approximation of playing with hickory without finding a set of hickory clubs try playing with signigicantly fewer golf clubs. I think with fewer clubs you will learn how to better play the ground game and you will become much less dependent on knowing exact yardage.

Granted many courses handicap you with the wrong sort of maintenance for the ground game but still you can better understand what the old-time architects had in mind with fewer specialty clubs.

My typical bag consists of Driver, 3-iron, 5-iron, 7-iron, 9-iron, putter. It also makes the bag feel weightless.

Dan King

I can't thank the game enough for what it did for me. I've been different all my life and the game let me be myself. I did it my way.
 --Moe Norman (On being inducted into the Canadian Hall of Fame)

[TEPaul]

"Does Ran also play with balls from a prior period?"

Brian:

Excellent question and that's precisely what I said to him in my email back. Obviously playing golf with golf balls from that era is nowhere near as easy or convenient as playing golf with antique hickory clubs. I think Ran understands this full well. If he were able to play with both hickories and also golf balls that perform like the golf balls back then he'd see far different playabilities than he does with hickories and today's balls. Ran was able to hit the ball pretty high with those hickories the other day and had he been playing golf balls that performed as those old three piece balatas used to I doubt he could've done that as easily, if at all!  

[TEPaul]

"Remember that Bobby Jones used to routinely hit his hickories 300+ yards (see his biography)."

It's true that Jones routinely hit his hickories 300+ yards. It's also undeniably true that when he did he got up to 100 yards of roll!!

[TEPaul]

I had another discussion with Frank Thomas about ultimate distance and how freaked some are about how far today's players hit some of their drives. Frank asked if those people who are freaking out are considering the roll of the ball.

To really compare apples to apples, obviously what we need to consider is the carry distances of today's drives against yesteryear. Most of our courses today don't roll the way courses of yesteryear did sometimes but some of them today on tour are rolling out pretty well as we can now see on TV.

So the question really is how much farther does the long player of today CARRY HIS TEE SHOT compared to a long driver like Jones in his era?

Unfortunataley, I'm afraid that comparison would also be extremely shocking---eg some of the long bombers today, all of whom hit the ball immensely high, could be carrying their tee shots anywhere from 60 to 100 yards farther than Bobby Jones did!!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

These clubs are not as deficient as you may think!  Remember that Bobby Jones used to routinely hit his hickories 300+ yards (see his biography).

Jon,
What is the one problem with that equation?

Modern irrigation.

The golf ball Bobby Jones used to hit 300 yard was added drastically by fast & firm, and frankly me being the dino that I am, I wish we would have never let golf buy into the modern wonder of perfect plumbing and irrigation--its added more to the cost of golf, ruined golf and ruined superintendents reputations because of the endless need to make golf courses look like and park in downtown London.

[RSLivingston_III]

A couple of questions;
Why do most of you think a hickory club will hit a modern ball on a significantly different trajectory than the balls of the era? What other perceptions do you have about the performance of the 1920's era ball?

Jones and a handful of the others could hit carry drives in excess of 300 yards when needed.
The better players would hit a lower running shot or a carry shot depending on the requirements of the course.
The need for carry with back spin was very much in demand.

Does anyone really think the turf was any firmer than, as compared to what you might find at Kingsley or at Carnoustie today?
And are you taking into account that mowers are cutting fairway heights much lower today than in that era?
I find that 50-60 yards is the norm for run on very firm fairways for a hickory drive of 270 yards. I have not seen 100 yards of run except down hill and/or down wind.

[paul cowley]

TP...the carry distance in windless , sea level conditions for alot of pros is getting close to 300 yds [forget about roll ]....which makes for a whole different approach  if one really wants to design for all levels of play....and instead of letting  the distance thing  be a frustration and lament , i've become more excited about using strategies [tri-angulation of hazards ,non-specific turn points etc.] to help even the field.

....and just to keep my own balance , i occasionally whack a few gutties with my play clubs from the 1800's , knowing full well that ne'er shall the twain pass like forlorn ships of state in the night.....if you get my drift.

...and all it would take to salvage alot of the oldies is to further drop par from the 'championship' tees to a 67 ,68 ,or 69 .......that would test the big boys again and we could quit  mucking with the courses .

[paul cowley]

with all due  respect mr. livingston , todays boys with their equipment play a much different game than bobby j et al....and i'm a hickory enthusiast [and realist].

[RSLivingston_III]

I know that todays game is much different from then, I am just trying to dispel some of the myth's.
 I mostly focus on the 1920's when I refer to the rubber ball era and am trying to get people to realize it was a much more "modern" time than people talk about on this site. Full irrigation systems at the private clubs in the US, were the norm not the exception. Carry shots, were the norm not the exception. There are too many blanket statements of "this is what they did". "They" did almost nothing consistantly the same. There was no standardization, until the mid 20's. Focusing on the Competitive golfers and the top courses through the mid 20's through early 30's, it is somewhat possible to make blanket statements. This group needs to decide they will define the Golden Era by the top players and the top courses, not public or "sporty" courses and the lesser amatuer players.
R

[Neil Regan]

Ralph,

  You say that

Jones and a handful of the others could hit carry drives in excess of 300 yards when needed.

.

   I find this astonishing. I was under the impression that 260 yards of carry in 1925 was super-long. Is there anybody today among the hickory-users who can hit it that far in the air ?
 

[RSLivingston_III]

There are quite a few quotes about carry drives. Read Jones. He said the longest carry drive he hit was 320, the longest he witnessed was 340. And then there is the article about Clarence Gamber in Amrican Golfer. Read some of the quotes about Ted Ray.

I know of a few that have hit drives of that distance. Of course they have to be capable of it with a modern club.
The Driver I loaned to Ran is one that has consistantly produced some monster drives. I had hoped he would have had some of the guys hit it in Canada and give me some feedback. When they make a legitamate effort, the better players who have hit it produced drives within 10 yards of their modern driver.
I wish you guys could have seen Carlton Fisk and his son hitting drives with it at Kingsley.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ralph, I think turf conditions were drastically different back then compared to now. Even Carnoustie and The Old Course and Shinnecock and NGLA and Pine Valley and Merion and Riviera and Crystal Downs and........................

Why do you think the irrigation systems have changed so drastically?  Today's irrigatons systems are now so much more efficient then those of old where it was a quick coupling spinning sprinkler that went round and round.  Back then it wasn't a science as much as a learning process of how to get grass to grow in any condition. Read the MSU/USGA Green Section archives and listent he way they talk about grass and irrigation.

Look at an old aerial photo and tell me that all of those crop circles mean grass thats getting some water compared to grass that isn't.  I also think the turf was a much more springier back then. I think when a ball hit it, it just took straight off and didn't stop until it got to Toledo.

Your right about the want for loft and better control of stopping the ball though. Your dead on right.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Ran and I played nine holes with the hickories late one evening at Banff, when the heat of the day was dissipating. With a smooth swing I was amazed at how far you could hit the driver. I hit some of my best shots of the week with hickories, including two wonderful 2-irons. The idea that the 1920s balls were shorter than today's ProV is another myth - those balls were hot. The ability to shape shots was easier than I had anticipated and there were some really sweet shots that evening. I was skeptical at first, but I look forward to my own set of hickories.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

There are quite a few quotes about carry drives. Read Jones. He said the longest carry drive he hit was 320, the longest he witnessed was 340. And then there is the article about Clarence Gamber in Amrican Golfer. Read some of the quotes about Ted Ray.

I know of a few that have hit drives of that distance. Of course they have to be capable of it with a modern club.
The Driver I loaned to Ran is one that has consistantly produced some monster drives. I had hoped he would have had some of the guys hit it in Canada and give me some feedback. When they make a legitamate effort, the better players who have hit it produced drives within 10 yards of their modern driver.
I wish you guys could have seen Carlton Fisk and his son hitting drives with it at Kingsley.

Ralph, one question....If I'm going to be buying a Persimmon Hickory, why do I want it to go far? Its seems sort of redundant.  I just want it going the same distance that I'm capable of hitting that paticular club from THAT time.  I don't want extra help by using modern day technolgies or extra secrets that they didn't have back then. If I wanted modern secrets I would just keep on using what I have, because frankly, despite the craziness of the equipment, I do think the clubs look well built and are somewhat good looking too. Not as good looking as a Hickory, but what are you doing to these persimmons to make them different then others?

You seem to think there is no diffence between what they were hitting then and what they are hitting now, and frankly, I think thats pretty wrong. But don't get me wrong, I too have seen where Bobby Jones hit it over 300 yards or 320 or what ever, but I also think many of these people were for the time exageratting the perfromances and their yard was much different then our yard.

[Jack_Marr]

I saw an item on some programme about hickory shafts. They said that the swing had to be much different to today because of the flex of the shaft.

[TEPaul]

redanman:

I'm very happy to see you placed a "service mark" next to my "melded" term! If you had not you'd be hearing from my lawyer first thing Monday morning!  

[TEPaul]

As for the differences in performance with hickories with the new ball compared to the balls used in the era of the hickories I suspect it's huge. The most notable difference I believe is the new ball tends to fly so much higher off the face (of even hickories) than the old balata balls or the balls used in the age of hickory. At least that was my observation watching Ran play with hickories and a new age ball at Merion West last week. The obvious and simple reason is today's balls are simply so much more low-spinning than the balata balls or the balls used in the age of hickory clubs.

Also, and again, as good as Jones may have been there's no conceivable way he could've actually carried the ball he used in his era with a driver into the same zip code as the players of comparable ability do today. In total distance the only way Jones could've gotten the ball out there around 300 was about 1/4 of that distance at minimum being roll once the ball hit the ground.

And irrigation of fairways in the 1920s and even 1930s was by no means a common thing. A few courses had permanent irrigation ON the fairways but it was rare. Check out the fairway irrigation in GeoffShac's Cypress Point book (around course opening)--its' the old above ground twirling cycle sprinklers we used to see on lawns about 50 years ago.

[A_Clay_Man]

From my one or two exposures to this "rage", The obvious "real" reason the novice hickory stick golfer hits their ball fine (even finer than fine), and with not so unacceptable differences, is their swing speed.

When using a wooden club, with a price tag near or over 5 bill$, one's very careful about which ball they are hitting(needs to be a soft cover) and how hard they swing at that ball.(not very) The results are fine golf shots.

Who wouldn't be happy hitting fine shots?

[TEPaul]

Adam:

You have some novel ideas and that's surely one of them. You seem to be implying that golfers using hickories are swinging slower (and better) because they're concerned about breaking something really valuable!

If Ran Morrissett was doing that for that reason last week at Merion West I must say I didn't notice. He was interested in how far out there he hit that brassie (2 wood) off the tee!

Don't let today's manufacturers read that post of yours or they might come up with a new bright idea to make themselves more money.

Can't you see the ads now?

"New $25,000 driver that's so valuable almost any golfer will inherently swing slower and better with it for fear of breaking something truly valuable!"    

And perhaps they may even have a note at the bottom of the ad that says;

"If there's a golfer out there who for whatever reason doesn't think a $25,000 driver is valuable we'd be more than happy to sell huim the same driver for $100,000 or whatever price it takes for him to consider it really valuable!"

[A_Clay_Man]

Ya know Tom, I did think of the price to swing speed ratio, and how a clever marketer could exploit the "feelings" of their customer.

I did qualify my post with the term 'novice". After hearing that Ran is now golfing the "H" frequently, he might have more confidence and be swinging with nice tempo. But as I recall his swing at Pinon Hills, it didn't really need any fixing. Although, he was complaining of a wrist injury, that day, and could've been responsible for my observation.

On the other side, Rick Holland (mentioned earlier) has been golfing them for a while now,(from my understanding)  I did have the opportunity to see the difference in his game betweeen the modern and the H. Rick ripped after the modern, and golfed fine with the H. It was his mishits that was the real difference.

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