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Michael J. Moss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« on: August 31, 2004, 04:09:52 PM »
This coming Friday I have been invited to play Engineers, which I am quite excited about. In the "Courses by Country" section, we have a wonderful review that gives much praise to the research done by Tom MacWood, who supplied photos of the course from its early days.

My host has informed me that the 16th green is to undergo significant alterations - essentially being leveled-off - in order to accommodate additional pin positions. The review of Engineers singles out the 14th and 16th holes as being "two holes worthy of any list of the finest holes ever built." If true, should this green be altered and if so who is going to massage it? I know Gil Hanse has strong feelings about this golf course having read the interview featured here in 2000.

There is a photo of the 16th green as it exists today with a photo of it from the original design directly beneath it. If one  looks at them together, the top image shows land that seems much steeper than the bottom one. The tree line in the background of both photos, when compared, suggest different topographies. The photo of the current green looks like some flattening might be justified (horrors!), whereas the black and white image below it displays an awesome green, which to alter would be a sin.

Which is the truth and who is to do the dirty work? ???

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2004, 04:28:22 PM »
About 7-8 years ago, Brad Klein wrote a great article in LINKS magazine about restoration in general. He highlighted Gil Hanse's involvement at Engineers in a sidebar. But I think things there have changed since.

If I recall correctly, the Green chairman at Engineers that brought Gil there died tragically a few years ago. And, these days, another architect is advising the club. Who? I'm not sure.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2004, 04:29:00 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

TEPaul

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2004, 05:43:17 PM »
I thought Gil was the consulting architect at Engneers but maybe things changed. I vaguely recall the last time I asked him about it (maybe a couple of years ago) he said something like things had slowed down there. I guess I could just call him and ask.

I think that's very interesting that Tom MacWood has been given credit for supplying Engineers with all the photographic research they could ever need to restore some of their architecture back to the way it once was.

If he did that what happened? The obvious answer to me is the membership!!! This is precisely why I've always said it never pays to disregard what the membership wants to do!

Is this the time and the place (Engineers) to gear up Golfclubatlas.com to see if we can have some beneficial influence on what the club may be about to do? Should this website and some of it's researchers and others with restoration experience with memberships behind them try to approach Engineers and its membership or will we just end up creating another adverserial relationship with another club and course that is worth preserving and/or restoring?

David Gookin, since you responded so well to GolfClubatlas I'd be really interested to hear what you say about Engineers and approaching them.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2004, 09:05:51 PM »
They were interviewing for a new consulting architect 3-4 years ago.  We passed at the opportunity because it was clear they wanted to flatten some of the greens ... I understood why, but once they start it will be pretty tough to figure out where to stop.

I believe that Tripp Davis, from Oklahoma, is now their consulting architect.

Tom P:  You know better than to stick your nose into the middle of such things.

T_MacWood

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2004, 09:20:08 PM »
Michael
Thanks for your report.

TE
I'm surprised you didn't place a happy face after the three exclamation marks...your glee in this sad news is a little disturbing. By the way if you reread Michael's post you'll see I provided the research and photographic evidence to Ran for his course review. It was a good effort on both are parts; hopefully the club will recognize what they once had.

I suspect you'll be the lead chearleader for Trip Davis restoration team in the near future.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2004, 09:20:43 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2004, 04:28:45 AM »
"TE
I'm surprised you didn't place a happy face after the three exclamation marks...your glee in this sad news is a little disturbing. By the way if you reread Michael's post you'll see I provided the research and photographic evidence to Ran for his course review. It was a good effort on both are parts; hopefully the club will recognize what they once had.
I suspect you'll be the lead chearleader for Trip Davis restoration team in the near future."

Tom MacWood:

I'm really surprised at you! Well, on second thought, maybe I'm not surprised. My GLEE in this sad new is a little disturbing? What kind of crap is that? What glee? Where do you see glee in that post of mine above? Why would you assume it makes me happy that a membership that's been given some really useful material to use to restore their course and doesn't use or even consider it? Is it simply because I keep telling you it basically never works well to disregard or not consider a membership of a club when someone is trying to restore or preserve a golf course?  

Interesting and educating a club's membership to what they have and how they can restore it is a particular process to me. It's about education and persuasion. I didn't think that process up, some of the best restoration architects in the opinions of both of us all told me that. I wish I'd listened better and hadn't made the mistakes I did in that necessary process. Why you continue to ignore or disregard this obvious fact is really beyond me. It's probably just because I've told you a number of times it'd help you understand this fact if you got involved in a real restoration with a real membership--something every golf club has. That seems to annoy you for some reason and you seem to continue to take it as a personal attack. Why is that when both of us are clearly trying to work in the same direction?

I think that alone is sad. If I belonged to Engineers and a guy like you supplied my club with really good and useful historic architectural material of my club I'd try as hard as I could to use it to convince my membership to use it just the way I did at GMGC.

You have some kind of problem with this reality and I think that's sad because you are a good researcher of material. But even with the best material no club can disregard their membership. They all need to use that material on their membershps to educate and persuade them to do the right thing.

Why do you have a problem with that?

"I suspect you'll be the lead chearleader for Trip Davis restoration team in the near future."

Why do you say something like that? I have no idea who Trip Davis is. When we went about planning our restoration we made the effort to go out and do some good research about which architect out there could do and would do the kind of valid and effect project of our course we were hoping for. We got Gil Hanse, we presented him with some really comprehensive evolutionary architectural research material and we feel it's a good restoration and both me and my membership feel we did the right thing by our club and our course.

So why would you have a problem with me recommending and suggesting that other clubs like an Engineers follow that process? I'd definitely like to know.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2004, 06:00:53 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2004, 04:58:51 AM »
"Tom P:  You know better than to stick your nose into the middle of such things."

Look at that remark by Tom Doak. It shows me how difficult it really is for someone outside a golf club to try to help that golf club do something like a really good architectural restoration. If a club doesn't actually ask for help what are you going to do? I wouldn't even think it possible if a club or two or more hadn't actually reached out for help and advice both personally and also on this website, both on actual architectural restoration and on how to persuade a membership to accept doing something like a classic course restoration project.

So let's ask ourselves the questions, what are the real reasons most memberships don't look for help and advice from those outside their clubs? If we can honestly answer those questions, and begin to follow those answers, I believe some useful things can eventually come of it. I've never seen anything negative happen with some really good collaboration in the area of course restoration.  

T_MacWood

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2004, 05:59:52 AM »
TE
Re-read the first post again and my post again. I did not supply the club anything. No one supplied anything to the club.

I supplied the information to Ran when he was writing his course review. Ran was the person who spoke to some of the members, not me. He was very interested in seeing this important course preserved and restored, that is why he included historical information in his review for the first time. It was a hell of an effort on his part IMO, and hopefully it will have a positive effect...on the membership and who ever the architect in charge.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2004, 06:02:42 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2004, 06:07:17 AM »
Tom MacWood;

Un huh! So you supplied that information to Ran who supplied it to the club? That's wonderful---no problem at all there. But do you want to see the club use that information with the result being to get it back onto the course in a good restoration or don't you? And if you do, why in the world do you have a problem with me or my suggestion of how to go about considering and educating and persuading the memberhip of Engineers to do exactly that?

T_MacWood

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2004, 06:21:36 AM »
TE
On more time...I supplied the information to Ran who used it in his course review...have you read it. Go to 'Course by Country' and look for Engineers.

Thanks for your expertise in these matters. Ran spoke to the members and wrote the review. I sent the architect in question a letter volumteering my services. What did you do...other than give us a lecture on what you did as member of GM? There is no doubt you did a wonderful thing there (GM), but its difficult for two non-members who live in other parts of the country to do what you did. I'd love to travel the country educating members...unfortunately I have a job.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2004, 06:25:16 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2004, 06:48:40 AM »
"What did you do...other than give us a lecture on what you did as member of GM?"

It looks like that's the problem with you. You consider the things I say on here a "lecture"? You must view the things I say to you as a constant lecture! That's great. This is a discussion group my friend, not a victorian classroom. You have abilities to come up with material that I don't or might not, and I have some experiences out there with a lot more clubs than just GM and obviously a lot more than you ever have directly! Part of the reason for that may not be that you can't, it just may be that you don't want to, or worse yet you somehow can't see the necessity of it!

So what? Discussing this entire subject, coming up with effective ways to perhaps combine our efforts on here to actually do more to benefit some of this old architecture should be the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal should be not to just make that material available, the ultimate goal to me is to do everything possible to see it's used properly to get restored back onto these golf courses. And that does involve club memberships.

I really do actually try to get involved in other clubs and courses, particularly when they ask me to and clearly you don't. You seem to think all this is about is to just make that material available somewhere and good things should happen on these golf courses. Well, it doesn't really work that way, and I'm pretty certain you must know that somehow.

My approach is not to blatantly criticize golf clubs and entire memberships from this website, the way too many on here do. My approach is to try to get involved with them somehow and help them understand the things that have worked well for us and what I've seen done at other clubs who have been through good restorations.

What's wrong with that? Why criticize me for that or even say something like all I'm doing is lecturing? Go to whatever job you do then, Tom MacWood, and I'm going to continue to do what I can to help any club that's willing to listen what can work well for their course because it did for us.

I can't imagine why you have a problem with that.

T_MacWood

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2004, 06:56:52 AM »
"My approach is not to blatantly criticize golf clubs and entire memberships from this website."

Thats not my approach either. But when I see work that is not historically accurate or shoddy...I'm going to point it out. If pointing it out is considered blatant criticism of a golf club or an entire membership so be it. I don't believe sitting silently in those cases helps anyone. I know for a fact defending these transgressions does more harm than the shoddy work itself.

TEPaul

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2004, 07:29:02 AM »
"Thats not my approach either."

Good. Then we do agree on something!

"But when I see work that is not historically accurate or shoddy...I'm going to point it out."

Me too, but definitely not in the egregiously personal attack mode that some on here restort to (definitely not something you've ever done though) involving people they don't even know at some of these clubs and courses they've never even been to!
 
"If pointing it out is considered blatant criticism of a golf club or an entire membership so be it."

I don't think pointing these things out is blatant criticism---the blatant part is much more about how some on here go about pointing these things out!

"I don't believe sitting silently in those cases helps anyone."

I don't either and I'm not silent and I'm not sitting either as you seem to be doing in Ohio. I get out there to these places and try to get very much involved with the people at other clubs, obviously particularly if they ask me to.

"I know for a fact defending these transgressions does more harm than the shoddy work itself."

Am I defending some transgressions and if you think so a few good examples of how I'm doing that would be worthwhile!
« Last Edit: September 01, 2004, 08:01:21 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2004, 07:57:25 AM »
TE
"....but definitely not in the egregiously personal attack mode that some on here restort to involving people they don't even know at some of these clubs and courses they've never even been to!"

Could you point out any example of where I engaged in a personal attack against anyone involved with these clubs?

TEPaul

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2004, 08:07:10 AM »
"Could you point out any example of where I engaged in a personal attack against anyone involved with these clubs?"

Tom:

Sorry about that--- a carpenter showed up at my door, I posted that last post without reading it. Look at it again in this vein. I don't think I've ever seen you blatantly attack any golf club or course or anyone in it. That appears not to be your style or mode at all as it is with some others on Golfclubatlas. Unfortunately, most of the club members of clubs that've been really slammed and criticized on here don't make many distinctions between who specifically is doing it or not. Unfortunately to clubs and club members like at Merion those people sort of look at GOLFCLUBATLAS as a single thing!

grandwazo

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2004, 09:53:22 AM »
How about we get back to the subject the thread was started for...having played Engineers many times over the years and now having reached the point of turning down any invitation that comes my way, the honest truth is that the greens are too severe and need to updated to accomodate today's maintenance criteria that club members ask for.  

Mr. Doak accurately stated that once this process begins, it will be hard to stop at Engineers, practically every green suffers from the same design "flaw", a "flaw" that was seen as an attribute in the club's early days.  

Being a member at a club close by, knowing the competitive pressures clubs like Engineers are facing, in order to attract new members Engineers has to adapt.  The course has a reputation in the area as being one you would simply not want to play day in and day out...and no matter how much some of us would like to preserve and restore a course such as Engineers, the truth may simply be that the design concept upon which the greens are based in no longer valid.  

In an earlier post I mentioned having competed in the local Club Champions tournament in 2001 and hearing consistently from my fellow competitors that the course, in particular the greens, were simply "unfair" especially when running in excess of 10 on the stimpmeter.  

Hopefully those in charge of the changes about to take place will do their best to maintain the "feel" or "look" of the existing layout, while at the same time offering their members a more enjoyable playing experience.  

The trend at this club has been more towards younger tennis playing members to some degree, golfers looking to join a golf club are heading towards Old Westbury (great job by Ken Dye on the Overlook and Bluegrass nines along with a reworking of Gil Hanse's work on the Woods nine) or Glen Oaks, Pine Hollow or Fresh Meadow.

My home course recently hired Kelly Blake Moran to undertake a renovation, the course lacking so much in the way of character, options and strategy that we simply could not compete for the golf member against the same "competition".....as co-green chair, based on the initial design and routing plans we have seen we believe that we will be looked at in the same vein as the above mentioned clubs and be able to replenish our declining membership with active golf playing members.  We're also spending a ton of $ on a new men's locker room and fitness facility....the market that we are in demands we offer the total "package" to be competitive, nothing less will do.  If we don't, our 130 acres will end up as about 20 $5 million homes in the middle of East Norwich, LI.

I guess my point is that although Engineers has a great pedigree and history, it's also a business and the product they are offering in today's marketplace in no longer competitive.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2004, 10:05:49 AM »
Tom and Tom:

The issue at Engineers is not about restoration at all, really ... it's that they don't like what they have which is basically pretty well preserved.  They are bound and determined to change it because they think it's too severe, and good players are constantly telling them it's too severe.

One would like to tell them to just keep the greens at 8 on the Stimpmeter and not try to keep them at the same speeds as other area clubs because the greens don't work at 10 ... their greens might not even work at 9 ... but the members just think they've fallen behind the times and need "updating."

However I do think Grandwazo is overstating the case when he says the club must "compete" in the modern environment.  Engineers has a pretty vibrant [and vocal!] membership and I am sure there are other people on Long Island who would like to play that kind of course on a regular basis, if they would just accept what they have and sell it as a plus instead of a minus.  What Engineers is doing now would be akin to taking a Mike Strantz course and taking all the quirk out of it because some of the players don't like it.

Sad to say, though, most of Ran's impassioned advice to the club has gone for naught.


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2004, 10:19:35 AM »
The course has a reputation in the area as being one you would simply not want to play day in and day out...and no matter how much some of us would like to preserve and restore a course such as Engineers, the truth may simply be that the design concept upon which the greens are based in no longer valid.

Could you please expound upon these two statements?

It's amazing - but not surprising - to me that it sounds like the members want their course to be like everyone else's. If true, that's sad.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael J. Moss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2004, 10:32:35 AM »
In response to Tom Doak's last post, I think it's important to ask: If by maintaining the 16th green to roll at let's say, 7-8, do more pinable positions present themselves? Also, can other less severe greens at Engineers run at a faster pace without driving golfers crazy?  :o

Can the "truly eccentric" greens on one course be cut at differing heights or should they be maintained in a uniform manner?

grandwazo

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2004, 10:42:02 AM »
I will defer of course to Mr. Doak's perpective on the architectural merits of Engineers, but will respectfully disagree with his opinion on the business aspects of the club in our marketplace, having also served on our membership committee for the past 4 years, and competed against Engineers for members,

I'll ask you to take my word with regards to the challenges the club is facing attracting members willing to pay the "going rate" to join as opposed to the bargain basement rates and deals they have had to offer in order to attract mostly tennis members in the hopes of converting them to golf at some point.  

The clubs in our area are for the most part divided by religous orientation further restricting the respective pools from which to draw new members, Engineers location, the severity of the course, the economic challenges the club has faced with a severly declining membership recently all point to finding ways to solve these problems.  We're not talking about people having an option to join the Creek, of Piping vs. Engineers or Fresh Meadow if you catch my drift.  Making the course less severe and offering the members and prospective members a more "enjoyable" playing experience is one option.  Slowing the greens down by changing the maintenance protocol is certainly still an option and perhaps they should try that first...The clubhouse also requires a major overhaul, but that's another story altogether.  I sincerely wish them luck.

Jeff

grandwazo

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2004, 10:47:34 AM »
re: Mr Pazin

If you have played the course, the green on hole #1 says it all.  There is simply no way, in my opinion, to hit a shot, with purpose, in to this green that without some element of luck you can hope to acheive success.    It's ridiculous.  

My statement was based on conversations I have had with members and outsiders who have played the course over the past 20 years (I live about a mile away from the course and have played it myself at least 30 times during that time).  It is the consensus perspective in my opinion.

Regards
Jeff

TEPaul

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2004, 11:11:35 AM »
Wow:

That post above about how the members (and others in the area) feel about the greens sort of says it all. This might be one of the best and most poignant examples of what happens when something old and radical in design, albeit really cool meets the modern age of golf and reality! It seems like there must be some way in a last ditch effort to convince those who are disatisfied with that great old unique Herbert Strong course that there just may be a way to do this if they just commit to trying to find solutions rather than wholesale changing those greens first. Working to find the "reasonable maximum" greenspeed on a course and still have tons of fun and keep it fair isn't all that hard particularly if no green is a real anomalie to the others.

Frankly, I never saw greens that couldn't work at 9, and I sure do know some of the greatest old slopes and contours anywhere. But probably nothing will stop them now from changing the architecture. This one sounds like a true reality check to me!
« Last Edit: September 01, 2004, 11:13:12 AM by TEPaul »

Tripp_Davis

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2004, 11:03:12 AM »
First of all, I really enjoy reading everything on this web site because it stimulates valuable discussion about an art that is largely misunderstood.

I have been told there was a discussion about Engineers going on, but I have been very busy.  I hope my reply gets picked up by those that have been so passionately discussing the topic.

My name is Tripp Davis and I am the golf architect who has been working with Engineers since 2000.  I read that some of who are discussing this do not know who I am.  For your sake I will give you a relatively quick bio.

I am originally from Atlanta and grew up playing the old East Lake (when a poor kid like me could) and Fairington (Rees Jones first solo).  As a junior golfer, I was fortunate to be ranked as one of the top players in the country and I went to the University of Oklahoma on a golf scholarship.  At Oklahoma I was fortunate to make the All-Big Eight Academic Golf Team, the All-Big Eight Golf Team, the NCAA All-America Golf Team, and play on the first OU golf team to win the National Championship (1989).  After OU I played for a year and a half on what is now the Nationwide Tour and other mini-tours, before tearing my shoulder up in the middle of my second year.  My shoulder is better now and I still play some competitive amateur golf, mostly at tournaments played on the older courses (CC of Charleston - Azalea Am; Inverness - Iverness Mid Am; Sunnehanna - Sunnehanna CC (tillie); Northeast Am - Wannamoisett; The Anderson - Winged Foot; and the USGA events).  I was the medalist at the US Mid Am last year and play well enough otherwise that I am usually ranked in the top 50 amateurs in the country (currently 23rd I think).

After my attempt at professional golf, I went back to the Master Program for Landscape Architecture at OU, concluded with my thesis on "The Environmental Impact of Golf Course Construction".  I live in Oklahoma and have been practicing golf architecture since 1993.  Up until 2000, most of my new course and restoration work was in the middle of the country.  I did a course in Dallas called The Tribute, where I took my favorite principals from my favorite holes in Scotland and created a course that would give players in this country a look at that style of golf architecture (it has been mislabled a replica course).  I have also done work on Maxwell courses (Muskogee, Lawton, and the old Indian Hills).  In 2000 I was playing in The Anderson at Winged Foot when a member at Engineers asked me to take a look at the course.  They had just decided to end their relationship with another golf architect and they were interviewing others to go forward.  

Engineers is a very interesting golf course that is driven by the interest in the greens, but it uses the terrain to create a great deal of interest from tee to green as well.  The greens are severe - no question - but if anyone has ever played many Pete Dye courses or Wannamoisett or experienced the sharpness of Winged Foot West, (many others could be mentioned) the greens at Engineers are among a group of greens that represent more of what we should be doing today, in so long as you use the constant movement to create strategic variety.  Severe green design to just stand out is worthless, but if the greens require a player to think and hit a variety of shots into and around the greens, they have value.  Herbert Strong originall designed Engineers with greens that used strong strategic variety to establish the character of the course.  It was a course designed for championship play and in its infancy held the PGA Championship (1919) and the US Amateur (1920).  It is hard to say exactly what the green speeds were back then (rollers and lack of water could get greens pretty fast), but it is safe to say they were not as smooth and as fast as the greens can get today.

Should we ignore the advances in maintenance equipment and technique that have been driven by the desire to have greens that roll faster and smoother (which in many cases have given greens the ability have their character stand out)?  I have to believe that Ross, Tillinghast, Maxwell and Strong knew (which a couple wrote about) there would be advances in the ability to improve the smoothness and speed of the greens, which coupled with the knowledge that in time the ball would go further and the players would get better, would leave the greens as an increasinly important part of the defense, and the strategy, of the golf course.  

When the design of a green (or any part of the golf course for that matter) is to the point that it loses its intended strategic variety, I believe that there is value in restoring that original intent.  Both in its original form and how it has evolved within the play of the game.  The greens at Engineers were designed to be on the brink.  On the brink of introducing an element of luck over skill and on the brink of leaving the player with what may seem to be ridiculous options the player does not like to be confronted with.  How many of our older courses does that characterize today (even some of our newer courses)?  But, on the side of that brink that presents strong strategic variety, design such as this can be considered brilliant, which, as a player, I see in much of what is, or could be, at Engineers.  Restoring greens at a course such as Engineers is a very complex matter as it is important to stay near the brink, but you want to return the course to where it is on the side of strategic variety, barely.  In doing so you take a chance that future evolution in greens maintenance will push the restored green back over the brink, but it is a chance you have to take.  Different from our predecesors in golf architecture, I cannot see how the golf industry and golf world would want greens any faster or smoother than they are today.  We do need to express this constantly to our governing bodies, but it is both the perception of golfers and manufacturers that drive technology.

With every thing we have done at Engineers to date, we have upheld this ideology.  When we started on the 8th green, there was one pin location they could use.  When we were done, there are a minimum of 5, but I assure you we did not make the green easier, we just introduced greater variety. It was not a redesign, but reconditioning of what was there.  We did the same thing with #6 and #9.  The members still bitch, but now they have more to bitch about.  All in all, realizing their games are now being tested, not tortured.  

We are going to rebuild the 16th.  Today, only one-third of the green is being mown at green height because the other two-thirds is not capable of supporting a pin location (or keeping a ball from rolling off what would be green).  We are not going to redesign it and flatten it, we are going to restore the original design intent in the original form.  It is a great green, that has lost its variety.  We are also going to perform similar work on the 1st, 2nd, 7th, 10th, 17th and 18th.  In some cases, such as on the 1st and 17th, we are not going to really change slopes in the green as much as we are going to enlarge the green slightly and slightly change slopes and patterns around the green to allow the variety to come back.  At that point, the greens at Engineers will be restored to thier original intent or what has evolved will be sound.  The membership and governing body at Engineers are very knowledgable and passionate about their golf course and they do not want wholesale change, they want their golf course to be the best reflection of its original design and the character that has evolved.  

I agree with Tom Doak that with some of these older courses it is hard to start and then stop before destroying what was there.  If you draw the line at diminishing the original intent and the character that has evolved, you can see a light at the end of the tunnel.






TEPaul

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2004, 11:29:40 AM »
Tripp:

It's terrific you felt inclined to participate and post on here, particularly about a current architectural project. This is precisely the type of thing GOLFCLUBATLAS.com needs a whole lot more of to understand things for both sides or all the sides that're pertinent.

Thanks,

T_MacWood

Re:Engineers CC - 16th hole - changes coming
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2004, 05:05:02 PM »
Trip
Why not slow the greens to a reasonable speed, preserve Strong's original work and save the club the expense of rebuilding their greens? Speaking of Ross, Tillinghast, Maxwell and Strong, they consistantly wrote of the importance of not wasting money. We really have no idea what Strong would have said about his greens being remodeled. Aren't wild greens at moderate speeds as challenging as toned down greens at high speeds?

Do you know when the 7th was remodeled?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2004, 05:07:49 PM by Tom MacWood »

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