[Jeff Goldman]

I miss the occasional political discussions here, which were far better here than I have heard on television or anywhere else.  David M. was a terrific defender of the "left" while Lou, Shivas, Kelly and a few others were also very good from the other side.  Apparently, talking GCA is an excellent indication of general thoughtfulness.

Jeff Goldman    

[HamiltonBHearst]

David M-Your suggestion about leaving posts unedited may be appropriate, but clearly Kelly is not the first person who has edited a post on this site.  

Though I disagree with you politically I tend to agree with you on this point.  Who needs a checklist?  My checklist consists of one question at the END of the round.  Was it fun, compelling architecture?  I hope to see Rustic Canyon someday based on yours and Tommy N strong endorsement.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

You need to be in NYC to handle pr and communications for the Republicans!

Frankly, I could care less what you think and likely vice versa (amen to that!), but you need to be a bit more upfront on what I said concerning specifically Rustic Canyon and my general reviews of golf courses I play. My "list" is much more elastic than you would imagine. It's so funny because the same people who rail against "lists" are the same folks who argue in their own way for their most "favored" architects and the courses they create. What's ironic is that these same people have their own "lists" when assessing courses. Candidly, I have no issue with any "lists" provided some sort of rationale can be brought forward.

I do have an open mind -- my listing of highly rated courses is quite varied and if you should speak with David Kelly he can outline for you the different style of courses I recommended to him when he can east for a short visit. What's amazing is that when you posted my comments on Rustic Canyon and claimed they were "astute" -- I have to wonder how does a person like me have such an "astute" listing without having played the course first? The answer is you are in error and you simply won't own up the fact that my summary comments on Rustic Canyon came only after playing the course -- not prior.

I have favorite courses that are long and short -- that are a par-72 and are far less than that. I also have courses designed by so-called "big" name architects and those who get little attention on this site. I also recognize layouts that are off the beaten trail and said so any number of times -- the most recent being Red Rock in Rapid City, SD.

David -- instead of telling people what courses you favor you simply do the reverse and play armchair quarterback from the comfort of your living room and play Pete the Parser. If my opinions on different courses are sooooooooooo in error please tell me in specific instances (you'll have to play the courses -- sorry about that little detail) and I'll be glad to react.

Now forgive me while I go out and play a Jersey course with my "checklist."

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas;

Boy, you're right on that count on Mystery Course X.    

Of course, it's really the par fives that are the shining stars out there IMHO.  

[George Pazin]

I get the feeling that several posters disagree more with the content of Matt's "checklist" than the fact that he may use one.

I disagree plenty with Matt, but I don't think this approach is really all that bad. I'd rather see someone put this sort of thought into a rating, even if I disagree with it, than the "I know greatness when I see it" approach. Without even looking at the top 10 list, I'd guess most of the courses break at least a couple of "rules". Pine Valley doesn't have any gambling reachable par 5s, does it? Does Pebble have a driveable par 4? The Old Course only has 2 par 3s, and they're even in the same general direction.

My own personal "checklist" would probably have things more like "does the course fit the site", "does the course look natural", "did I enjoy the challenges presented", etc.
Fortunately, I've never been asked to rate courses, so my criteria simply leads to my own personal list of courses that I would seek to play again.

Nobody ever said this stuff was easy or clearcut. That's part of what makes it so interesting. The "checklist" approach overlooks a lot, IMHO, but, hey, golf's a great big game....

[Tommy_Naccarato]

George,
Thanks for saying what needed to be said! Perfect!

[Mike_Cirba]

George does bring up a good point.  It's not that Matt has a checklist, it's that there's some debate whether it includes the exact criteria and weighting each of us prefer and that's always going to differ somewhat between individuals.

Personally, I'm glad that Matt share his checklists in the open manner that he does.  I know his biases, he probably knows mine, but I get a pretty good sense of a course based on the combination of what he says and what I know he likes and doesn't.  

In other words, I apply my own filter to his words (as he probably does to mine) and I try to shake the value from the personal bias.

I think that's all any of us can expect from each other here as we discuss courses.  If we all just give our honest assessments, and the basis for our opinions, we should all be able to figure out the rest.  

[Kelly Blake Moran]

David,

I should respond to you personally but risk being called a coward so I will waste sometime telling you this in public.  I deleted because it seemed the right thing to me. Amazingly the term some found offensive has been repeated many times including you.   If you think it was cowardly I suggest you call me a coward to my face not over the internet.  

Second, Dave I have voted in 6 presidential races, 5 were for Democrats, the only Republican was President Reagan, the first election, my first election.  I am a registered Democrat, I have done some small work for the party, not much.  I don't like the way the party is drifting, and I don't like Kerry.  It is not as sinister as you think.  If you want to discuss my departure from the fold call me 6103718180.  Maybe you can help me.

I agree with your first paragraph, checklists can be dangerous, I believe I made that point in previous posts.  

[Frank_Stanger]

I find it hard to believe that Matt Ward's inconsequential opinion could trigger such heated, personal arguments.

Wouldn't it be better to save your passion for someone capable of caring about your opinion?

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Somebody named Barney called the number I posted and left a brief message regarding David.  That is my daytime phone so call me now Barney since you seemed disturbed I did not answer.  I should be in all day expect for a much needed haircut sometime today.  

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Try now Barney, I can't tell ya what I was doing when you just called.  My cell is 610/223-7916, but try the office now.

[DMoriarty]

Lots of questions worth answering here and I plan to but no time now.  I promise I will come back later if there is still interest.  

Want to address a few quick things and clear up a few issues raised to me off line.  
_________________________

Kelly,  

I surrender.

I do understand why you took off your post, and realize that your intentions were good.  I just disagree with the consequences and think it generally a bad idea, especially if intentions arent fine.  

I've repeated the buttboy comment because I thought it was funny.  Plus given that I dont believe it deleting posts it sort of keeps it alive for me.  As a memorial.  Plus given that you called me a Buttboy, I guess I just figure I have the right.  But I guess if my using your term back at you offends you I will try to stop.  I wont delete my past uses though.  

As for the deleting posts, this is been an issue of mine for quite a while, as my past posts demonstrate.  I do think it seems a bit cowardly or at least passive-aggressive when someone says something mean then takes it back before the response.  I do believe that this wasnt your intention, so I will apologize for creating this misunderstanding.   The term wasnt directed at you personally but was part of my description of what is wrong with deleting in general.  As far as saying that to your face I certainly would, but you are not here.  Not as if I wanted a fight but because that is what I believe.  To me putting up here in this forum is as direct as I can get.  Those that know me will attest that if I am not willing to say it to your face I am not likely to say it at all.  That might be why I am so popular.  

If I have anything else non-architectural to say I will take it outside . . . I mean offline of course.  Starting with the politics . . .
_________________________

To Texas, my slam was only aimed at certain right wing Texans who know who they are (and one right wing Wyomingan VP.)  Sorry if I offended the better half.  

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Fair enough David.  I don't think many Texans get too upset anymore now that they can carry concealed weapons, and as for the VP there are a lot of people who don't like Dick including his daughter.

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