[THuckaby2]

The par number is meaningless in course rating and handicapping and has zero effect...TH

Actually par 3s do make a difference vs par 4s.  A par 3 has no fairway rating and the obstacle weightings on form 2 are different.  But, it doesn't matter what the course calls it, the par for rating is based on ratings so even if you call a 230 yard hole a par 4 we'll still rate it as a par 3.

Very true, good catch, my bad.  But there is zero difference between 4s and 5s, whatever the course wants to call those it's not gonna make any difference to us.

Right?

I've only done three ratings so far this year - I'm still not in mid-season form, obviously!  

[JohnV]

Tom, no real substantial difference.  A number of obstacles have the (2) adjustment on par 5s that have the same obstacle in play on mulitple shots (very deep rough, deep bunkers, trees).  Wouldn't make much of a difference in the ratings.

[THuckaby2]

Thanks, JV.

But couldn't the (2) adjustment come into play on a long par 4 also?  It's more likely on par fives, but it isn't a function of the par, right?  It's a function of facing these obstacles twice in the same hole.

I go to Ukiah to do one these on Friday... Look at a map of CA, look at where San Jose (my home) is and where Ukiah is... I obviously don't do these purely for fun.

 

[Jeff Shelman]

Searching for something else, I came across this thread. Can't believe I hadn't seen in before.

My club, Mendakota Country Club in Mendota Heights, MN, has five par 3s and five par 5s.

[Tom Bagley]

Worcester CC, another Ross course, has five par threes (#s 4,6,8,10 and 13).  Of the Ross courses I've played with 5 par-threes, (like Charles River and Worcester), one is usually very long:  in the 240-250 yard range.

Also, the new Fazio "Oaks" course at International Golf Club has five par threes and five par fives for a total par of 72.

[Bill_McBride]

What, only five par 3's?

The Balcomie Links at Crail --- six.

Painswick Golf Club --- seven.

[Mark Brown]

Bull's Bay, Charleston, SC by Mike Strantz --5
Forest Highlands, AZ, Weiskopf & Morrish -- 6

[Greg Holland]

On the first page, I noted that Greensboro Country Club's Maples Course has five, but neglected to mention that our Ross course does as well:

Hole 3 - 165 yds downhill, over a creek, to 2 tier green,
Hole 6 - 195 yds uphill
Hole 10 - 215 yds
Hole 12 - 195 yds slightly downhill
Hole 16 - 185 yds

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Yesterday, I played The Architects Club( Kay/Whitten) in NJ. The 5 par 3 holes are:

2. The C.B. Macdonald @ 195y from the tips.
6. The Colt& Alison @ 145y ".
8. The Seth Raynor @ 187y ".
12. The Charles Banks @ 191y ".
17. The Stanley Thompson @ 200y ".

Steve

[Tommy Williamsen]

Berkshire Red in England has 6 threes, 6 fours, and 6 fives.

[pdrake]

I haven't seen courses with 6 par 3s mentioned..........Wentworth by the Sea in Rye, New Hampshire has 6.....#2, 3, 9, 12, 15 and 17.  The course is close to 6,400 yards too.

[Tom_Doak]

I've done the five par-3's a few times, as noted above, because I didn't have any hang-ups about it.

I have obviously played a gaggle of the courses listed as examples, but the ones which convinced me that you could have a great course with five short holes were Rye, Swinley Forest, and Ballybunion.

I don't think it's the "ideal" set-up; if you give me a blank slate I'm probably going to have only four short holes, as we do at The Rawls Course or The Legends.  But if the site appears to set up better with five, so be it.

A lot of my clients have had hang-ups with par-70 layouts; on at least three of our courses we have changed a long par 4 to a par 5 as a compromise to make the client happier.  The one place we had no problem with this was at Stonewall ... the two courses I use as examples of good par-70's are Merion and Pine Valley, and everyone in Philadelphia hushes up at that point.

[Dennis_Harwood]

 LA North (4,7,9,11,15) plus at least two Orange County courses, Pelican Hills(Ocean) and Santa Ana Country Club.

[Gerry B]

Tom Doak:

Two great examples of great par 70 courses - PV and Merion East.Game, Set, Match!

I would also add Chicago Golf Club, Bel Air, Atlantic City, Baltimore Country Club Five Farms East and Yale to the elite  Par 70 club.

Shivas: Didn't Olympia Fields permanently change 18 to a par 4 after the last US Open, which would make it a par 70. I thought they did! Please confirm.

[TEPaul]

Mike Trenham:

I realize this thread is about five par 3s and how that relates to the things that are going on at St Davids now. But I'd love to get over there one of these days and see what-all this entire plan is about on the ground. I'm still having somewhat of a hard time visualizing how that new range is going to set into that mentioned area and/or how it will effect, I guess, holes #17 (?) and #18. Not that either of those holes are world beaters!  

I did have a long conversaton with Jay Howsen about all this within the last few months but despite that I still have a hard time visualizing this entire Prichard plan.

I guess I should call Ron Prichard too since he called me about a year ago to see if I could do anything with my cousin (I couldn't) who owns that land on the inside of the dogleg on #13 and obviously the trees and such that're now making that hole too radical a right to left turn off the tee. (Unfortunately, there seems to be some bad blood between St David's G.C. and the Paul family on that hole that goes back two generations now. I can't exactly get clear the history of it--but it's definitely a case of "two sides to each story").

Anyway, I'd love to see the range plan and what it'll effect with the finishing holes and I'd also like to see that old Ross #13 & #14 configuration if the club is seriously considering restoring it. At the very least a par 3 #13 would solve that problem on the inside of the dogleg of the present par 4 #13.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

There's a remarkable course in the suburbs of Edinburgh called Glencorse.  It has eight par 3s only one of which is under 200 yards in length!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Trenham,

So the answer to Corey Miller's question is:  
The membership,  not Ron Prichard proposed the changes, and Ron Prichard has been asked to provide a rendering that would accomodate changes proposed by two members and possibly championed by a majority of the voting members.

My memory isn't what it used to be, but, I was trying to remember what the ranges looked like at Prestwick, St Andrews and some other golf courses in the UK and the US.

If, instead of a range, the feature to be added was a tennis court or swimming pool, would the desire to alter the golf course be greeted as cordially, by your members, and by the participants on this site ?

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