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frank_D

bethpage (black)
« on: January 16, 2003, 06:24:39 AM »

who was the course architect ? Burdeck or Tillinghast ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2003, 06:46:30 AM »
Tillinghast was the course architect.  It was later touched up and finished by Burbeck.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2003, 06:46:57 AM »
Frank D

Tillinghast !
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2003, 09:06:08 AM »
Frank,

More bytes were consumed on this topic than almost any other on this website in 2002.  Just use the search feature and search for "Burbeck" for a full flavour of this (set for at least 200 days and 1000 posts to get them). Also, see Tom MacWood's In My Opinion piece The Bethpage Mystery elsewhere on the site.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

TEPaul

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2003, 09:52:19 AM »
That subject sure did consume some time and space but as to who designed the course---I look at that question in two parts--

1. Routing
2. Design

There seems very little doubt that Tillinghast was responsible for #2 without question. But the facts on #1 are simply not known, no matter what Whitten, the Tillinghast Society, Tom MacWood or anyone else concerned has said so far!

All the "It must have been Tillinghast", "There's no way Burbeck could have routed the Black", "It looks like a Tillinghast routing", "Everybody always said it was Tillinghast so it must be", aside, the fact is no one now knows who routed that golf course.

And not until someone comes up with something far more conclusive, about the routing anyway, should anyone call that course all Tillinghast.

And the most interesting thing of all is the person who appears to cast the most light so far into what Burbeck may have done (other than Burbeck's family and Ron Whitten) is A.W. Tillinghast himself!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2003, 10:03:11 AM »
Check out this story from the New England Journal of Golf -

http://nejg.onecityinternet.com/features/feature_two.php

which talks about Rick Wolffe's research regarding the Bridgton Highlands course here in Maine and what A.W. Tillinghast did vs. what Raplh Martin Barton did.

New England Journal of Golf is an excellent new magazine that deserves our support.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2003, 10:56:21 AM »
The current Bethpage-Black has many of Rees Jones's finger prints on it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

frank_D

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2003, 11:07:24 AM »
dear doug -

thank you for your response

i have read almost all and i come to no clear conclusion but only a matter of contradictory but persuasive arguments on both sides ! ? !

the larger question becomes quantitatively rather than subjectively - how do you determine THE architech - in this and possibly (undoubtedly) many more golf courses


Quote
Frank,

More bytes were consumed on this topic than almost any other on this website in 2002.  Just use the search feature and search for "Burbeck" for a full flavour of this (set for at least 200 days and 1000 posts to get them). Also, see Tom MacWood's In My Opinion piece The Bethpage Mystery elsewhere on the site.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Phil_the_Author

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2003, 11:28:07 AM »
There are a number on this site who know of my love for Bethpage and my passion for the Black course. After having done extensive research about the park and course throughout 2001 for my book about Bethpage and the Black, I was as stunned as many were when the Whitten article appeared in Golf Digest.

After reading it and speaking with Mr. Whitten about it, I felt that the stand taken by Golf Digest was a mistake if based solely on what had been written.

I am a true believer in the honor and importance of honesty in golf and so in May of 2002 I began an endeavour to try and find a definitive answer to this question. It is a personal quest that I intend to stay the course on until I can find the "smoking gun" that would satisfy all who have been intrigued by this question.

Since then I have scoured many sources and locations that might contain the answer. For example, there is only ONE reference to Bethpage Park and its construction contained at the National Archives. It details requests for "Right Of Way" permits for the project. After receiving a copy of the microfilm and careful examination, I found that none of these documents contain the names of either Tillinghast or Burdeck. This was especially strange as it listed ANOTHER member of the Long Island State Parks Commission as the "Project Superintendant"! The date of these documents are July through September of 1934, right at the time that Burdeck was supposedly overseeing the entire project.

What I find most curiously interesting in my search is the reason WHY there is no official documentation and records available.

A little background history will help. After the State of New York leased the property for the park and the existing Lenox Hills Golf Club Course, it was re-opened on April 23rd 1932 and renamed as the Bethpage Golf Club. So successful  as this for New York that just 2 weeks after it opened that the Long Island State Parks commission announced that the Park commission's architect's had laid out another eighteen hole course and that "... it is not improbable that still more complete courses will be added..." The date for this statement and new course design was early May of 1932. No one is listed as a named aechitect for this proposed "new course".

By the end of 1932, it had been decided to add not one, but three new courses. In order to build them federal help would be needed. With the creation of the Civil Works Administration in November of 1933, a means of building the park and through the sale of bonds financing became available for the project.

It is because of this that most golf historians state that Bethpage was built as a CWA project. This is incorrect. The Civil Works Administration performed so badly in all of their projects around the country that Roosevelt created several new agencies that would take over and correct the flaws of this well-intentioned program. These new agencies came into existence in March/April of 1934 and took over all of the projects being done by the CWA, which offically shut their doors in April of 1934. One of these new agencies, and it is the one that was used to build Bethpage Park & the courses, was the Works Projects Administration.

It is because work was transferred between these two agencies that the records no longer exist. Evidently, when they fulfilled there mandates and were all done away with in the 40's & 50's, most of the records were destroyed. This was caused by those working in the individual agencies assuming that the other one was preserving the records. That is why the National Archives and other record-keeping agencies have very few records of the projects done in the 1930's by them. It is why there are no known blueprints from the project and almost no documents of any kind available that could answer this question.

There other sources than the National Archives that do contain records from these agencies. For example, there is the Robert Moses Archives in New York City. I spent several days combing through old records there in Spetember to no avail. I was granted access to the records section of the FDR presidential museum where again no records of the Bethpage project were to be found. The New York City Public Library has a privately-owned collection of WPA documents that I was allowed access to & again nothing was found concerning Bethpage.

Most recently I have sent letters off to the families of the members of the New York State committee that made the presentation to the USGA back in 1934/5 that sought the U.S. Publics Links Championship to be held at the Black Course in 1936. Though awarded to it, it was contended on the Red & Blue Courses as the Black had not been seeded in time to be ready for it.

I was given their names by the USGA to aid me in this quest for truth. I have asked (in very few words) if they might have documents from the time their relatives were involved with the USGA & Bethpage. I am of the opinion that these gentleman were the type to make and maintain records and that in some attic, unbeknownst to their descendants are records about the Black Course that can finally answer this question.

I am also following up on access to other depression era document sources and will certainly update my search for all those interested.

Because I am still searching, and despite my earlier white paper written for the Tillinghast association about this issue where I concluded for various reasons that A.W. Tillinghast did the design, I will NOT give him credit yet. I will do so later on this year when my research is done.

Until then, if you have any questions that I might shed light on about Bethpage, go ahead and email me at: philwritesbooks@aol.com Hopefully I can be of help.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2003, 11:44:08 AM »
I followed this debate the last time it popped up.  It is interesting but brings me to wonder... in 75 years will GCAers be debating who the real architects were of the masses of signature designs?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2003, 12:16:39 PM »
Frank:

You determine who the architect was by trying to conclusive prove who did both the routing and the design of the golf course.

Phil:

That sure is a lot of leg-work you're doing with researching the Black. I hope you find more, but I think you can understand what I've been saying all along and that is that no one should conclude that either Tillinghast or Burbeck (or anyone else) did the routing and design on the Black until they can really prove it.

Golf courses get mis-attributed all the time, I'm sure. We've already had 2-3 courses that thought they were designed by someone else only to have real documentation prove otherwise.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2003, 04:06:09 PM »
It is nearly impossible to establish beyond a shadow of a doubt that an architect designed a particular course or that a single person deserves credit. For one thing many designs are collaborative efforts – a collaboration between two or more designers or a collaboration between designer and builder. Course plans can be misleading. Only one man can draw the plan, but how do we know what he put down on paper are his ideas and not the ideas of he and a collaborator or a group of collaborators. The same with notes on a plan, who is to say the writer was not transcribing the ideas of another or the group. Also there are plans of courses all over the UK drawn by Braid where he did only minor work. These beautiful plans look great hanging over the mantle in the clubhouse, but it can lead to confusion down the road.

It often boils down to a preponderance of evidence that will point to one man or not. Do you have plan by the architect. Is there a record of payment. What was written in the newspapers and magazines at the time or a few years after the course was built. Did the architect advertise that he designed the course – unlikely if someone else is responsible. Does the design and its features reflect a certain repeated architectural style (or not) - we are now learning some architects had distinctive style/features that were unique. There are a number of factors you can look at. Usually a few of these facts are enough to point confidently to someone, unfortunately there are those rare cases when more than one man takes credit at the expense of the other man (or a club does so).

Burbeck vs Tillignhast
Hood vs Flynn/Wilson
Crump vs Colt


In these cases trying to prove that one man is deserving over the other is often a futile exercise because what you have is likely a collaborative effort. Although it is possible to sometimes indentify the mentor/student or professional/dabbler.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2003, 04:36:22 PM »
Tom MacW:

I would have to agree with you on some courses. But regarding the ones you mentioned, once you have the right kind of evidence things very much fall into place.

Just the three you mentioned are very good examples.

Kittansett:

The club has always called Hood the designer. But now we can put Wilson and Flynn there in the very beginning. And we have an almost complete set of Flynn's hole drawings with construction instructions on them and we can see that the course was built to Flynn's plans. As for collaboration--Flynn was very clear in encouraging owner or member cooperation but it very much appears only to a certain point in time (drawing iterations) and then he finished the plans on his own not wanting endless interference.

The Kittansett plans are as the course was built and are remarkably similar to so many of the other plans Flynn did--we can see his modus operandi and style on them clear as day and we know his pencils, drawing style, the whole nine yards. As far as I'm concerned you really don't need to go farther than that to assign architectural attribution.

As for Pine Valley, that one is immensely complex because of so many people that Crump apparently encouraged to collaborate. But even on that using some really interesting writing from a variety of people who were around Crump for years that all basically point in the same direction, some close analysis of timelines (very important), drawings in newspapers (attributed), styles on the routing map and a really interesting so far unattributed set of hole drawings (very likely Crump) the whole thing can be narrowed down to almost who did what everywhere.

As for Bethpage, hardly any of that exists, that I'm aware of from all that's been written about it here except some articles that are not very conclusive. I think Bethpage more than any significant course I know of so far, points to the very important distinction between routing a golf course on the one hand and designing that course up on the other. I'm not saying Tillinghast may not have done both, of course, but there is just no proof he did.

It would be really amazing if Tillinghast did not design the features on that course because they do look like some of his styles, but the routing is more mysterious particularly considering the interesting things that Tillinghast said about Burbeck. But even that is not close to conclusive.

But today with the big production outfits it's much harder to tell who really did what. For instance there's a new course around here called Tattersal by Rees Jones. I doubt Rees was here--an associate named keith Evans did the course. But Rees's name is on it and of course everyone in the future will think he was the only architect.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2003, 05:00:30 PM »
TE
Kittansett has always been a mystery to me - it has very unique look and feel, almost old fashioned. I wouldn't point to it as typcial of Flynn in style. From what I understand the construction of the golf course was a difficult affair.

What was Hood and Wilson's input in the plan? Who constructed the golf course and were the any changes made to the "Flynn plan"? Have you been able to determine why (or do you have any theories why) Hood's name has always been incorrectly associated with the design of the golf course? Did Flynn take credit for the course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2003, 06:35:15 PM »
Tom MacW:

That's a lot of questions but we think the course is Flynn's design because it was built to his plans.

Why has the course been considered Hood all these years?

We think because Hood was basically the owner and czar of the place and it's my feeling that a local crew probably constructed the course to Flynn's plan (but of course we're not sure of that--it could have been Toomey and Flynn construction). When sometime like that happens (local constructors) anyone could see why people might then think that the one who was there during construction (probably Hood) was the designer of the course.

The few people who we talked to there say it was Hood's design because they don't have anything to put Flynn there. One of those was the 40 year super. He definitely started to change his mind when we showed him Flynn's hole drawings though. The construction instructions on the hole drawing are extremely important because they explain in detail how the bunkers are laid out, the dimension designs and construction details, the greens etc, everything in detail.

We also just found a letter in the USGA's green section from Hugh Wilson to the US Dept of Agriculture telling them that he was in Marion for a few days with Flynn.

We can't see that any changes were made to FLynn's plans when the course was built.

Kittansett had an enormous rock removal problem and that's the reason so many of the features like mounding appear to come right out of the ground which would make sense on a site like that with very low profile topography and obviously a very high water table. That would probably explain too why the course has a sort of old fashioned look to you in its features and such.

There's a newspaper article reprint in one of the Kittansett history books too by A. Linde Fowler from that time about the scientific design influence of the Merion golf course of Wilson and Flynn.

Flynn was remarkably low key it seems to us about actually taking credit for his designs which may explain how a few people appear to take the credit for things he did, such as Dick Wilson, Red Lawrence and who knows who else at this point.

We'd probably be pretty lost in researching these courses if we didn't have all Flynn's very detailed iterated drawings and construction instructions of all these courses and the ability to compare them to particularly aerials after they were built.

In my mind it just can't get much better than that!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2003, 06:46:17 PM »
TEPaul,

Didn't Brad Klein cover the Bethpage issue at Alpine, referencing contracts, payments etc., etc..

I thought that Brad indicated that Burbeck might have been involved with construction, but that all other signs pointed to AWT routing and designing the golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2003, 07:00:27 PM »
Pat:

If Brad said that I must have been out of the room. Ed Baker and I have to take frequent smoke breaks you know? If Brad has stuff like that I'd sure like to see it--a lot of people would-- not the least of whom would be Rick Wolffe. I did hear what he said about Bethpage Black though when Mark Fine asked him about who he thought designed the course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

C_Ambrose

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2003, 07:01:30 PM »

Quote
Tom MacW:

We think because Hood was basically the owner and czar of the place and it's my feeling that a local crew probably constructed the course to Flynn's plan (but of course we're not sure of that--it could have been Toomey and Flynn construction). When sometime like that happens (local constructors) anyone could see why people might then think that the one who was there during construction (probably Hood) was the designer of the course.

Hood=Crump!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2003, 07:02:49 PM »
TE
I also found the bunkers and their placement to be sometimes very simplistic/static -- which is not something I would normally associate with Flynn.

According to Cornish & Whitten's research the course (based on a preliminary design done by Wilson and Flynn) was constructed by gang headed by foreman Elliot Pierce with Hood overseeing the project. He also said they deviated from the plan. Evidently Ross was also consulted on the project.

I don't know if the crew was responsible for the incorrect attribution, but Hood himself seemed to be fairly generous. In Thomas's book (Golf Architecture in America) Hood provided a photo of the 3rd and a sketch of the hole from his own hand. Like every photo/plan in that book the architects are listed small letters under the picture - Hood said that hole was designed by Wilson, Flynn and Hood - in that order. It appears Hood at least saw it as a group effort.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2003, 07:03:19 PM »
TEPaul,

We didn't mind the Cigarette breaks, but the hashish and coffee breaks were a little over the edge.

Brad did address that question from the audience, and Rick did seem rather certain.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2003, 07:03:55 PM »
C. Ambrose:

Not exactly.

It would more properly go like this,

"Hood like to think he=Crump"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2003, 07:19:44 PM »
"Brad did address that question from the audience, and Rick did seem rather certain."

Pat:

That's not the point. Clearly a lot of people have seemed rather certain, not the least of which would be Ron Whitten.

My whole point is they should all stop saying that and show the architectural world something if they're so certain! Obviously I'm talking about particularly the routing.

I don't think it's a great idea for anyone, experienced architectural analysts, architects, anyone to just say they know a course is an architect's because some things might look like a particular architect.

There's a course down here that the club thought was a Ross for about 75 years--even a couple of good architects said it was Ross because a few greens looked like Ross. Of course there wasn't any actual proof it was Ross.

Well, it's not Ross--never was--he had nothing to do with it--because there's now complete evidence to prove otherwise.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

frank_D

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2003, 02:54:25 PM »
dear tony ristola -

my larger question was just that - how do we know for sure on many other courses ?

i have a lot invested in bravado and bragging about the identifyable details on my favorite donald ross course - and would be very humbled as well as disapointed if my "masterpiece" turned out to be a "fake"

Quote
I followed this debate the last time it popped up.  It is interesting but brings me to wonder... in 75 years will GCAers be debating who the real architects were of the masses of signature designs?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

rick wolffe

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2003, 10:30:40 PM »
H.B. Martin wrote "Fifty Years of American Golf," which was published in 1936, shortly after Bethpage Black opened.  Matin's book is considered a seminal work on American Golf history.  Here is what Martin had to say on Tilly and Bethpage in 1936:

"For eleven years in succession a major championship has been played over a Tillinghast Links.  This is a distinct compliment to A..W. Tillinghast who has been actively engaged in designing courses for more than thirty years.  Some of his famous layouts include Baltusrol, where the national open was recently held, the Winged Foot Country Club, the Five Farms Course of the Baltimore Country Club, Ridgewood Country Club, where the recent Ryder Cup matches were held, Fresh Meadow at Flushing, L.I., Shawnee in Pennsylvania and the new Bethpage courses on Long Island where the public links championship was held.

Tilly is rather proud of his work at Bethpage, where there are four courses included in the layout.  The planning and building of the courses was done for the New York State Park Commission and comprises a tract of land of 1300 acres.  The Tillinghast type of green has become famous in this country and is easily recognized, inasmuch as it is small and closely trapped around the entrance.  This style has been copied quite extensively abroad.

In the fall of '35 Tillinghast was appointed official golf course consultant and advisor for the Professional Golfers' Association.  He is happy in this line of endeavor, as he is constantly on the move and inspecting courses from Maine to California, making suggestions or adding traps and taking out bunkers here and there as the case may be.  As one of the early amateur golfers of this country Tilly played in many championships, representing Philadelphia where he was born and raised."

H.B. Martin writes of Tilly with a casualness that would only come from personal acquaintance.  How else could he comment on Tilly being happy in his new line of work with the PGA.  If this passage is not a smoking gun showing more proof that Tilly designed Bethpage, than at the very least, it proves that Tilly himself believed he designed the courses at Bethpage despite what Golf Digest says.

All this being said, the facts of this matter are irrefutable -- Tilly had a contract to design the courses, he fullfilled his contract and designed the courses and he was paid for his services.  The Long Island State Park Commission has proved this with the expense ledgers showing payments made to Tilly.

The overriding fact in my mind is the golf holes themselves -- the routing scheme and hole designs are right out of Tilly's design book.  Furthermore, in Tilly's own words as printed in Reminiscenses of the Links, Tilly says he designed the courses.  Here is a sample passage,

"In contemplating the difficulties of the Black, I have in mind particularly the long 4th, a par 5 of course.  When this is played from the full length of the teeing-ground it should prove one of the most exacting three-shotters I know of anywhere.  In locating and designing the green. which can only be gained by a most precise approach from the right, I must confess that I was a trifle scared myself, when I looked back and regarded the hazardous route that must be taken by a stinging second shot to get into position to attack this green."

Who doesn't understand what Tilly is saying by "locating and designing" a green?  

Why should we call Tilly a liar?

What right do we have to strip him of his creation and his gift to all of us, which all of us can play today?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: bethpage (black)
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2003, 04:09:46 AM »
Rick,

I'm not the type of person to enjoy controversy,  ;D but,
do you think this theory was an attempt to sell magazines and newspapers at a time when the USOPEN was coming to New York, to Bethpage ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »