[Brent Hutto]

John, I have a pair of those too. They're pretty magical when it's really raining although my cord grips are a little hard on them so they would probably only last a couple rounds. Fortunately, I don't have to play more than a couple rounds a year in any serious rain.

[George Pazin]

When did everything suddenly turn into foursomes? The statement you made was simple: you can't play fast shooting 100. My experience is otherwise. You can play fast shooting 100 and you can play slow shooting 65 (there's hours and hours of documentation of this on TV every week).

[JohnV]

I believe I've told this story before, but here goes.

My ex-wife and her group were the only group allowed to play as a fivesome on Saturdays at Pumpkin Ridge.  She was the best golfer and couldn't break 100 in those days.  Three of the five would be over 120.  They had the best time of any group out there.   You could hear them laughing and joking all over the course, but they played in four hours or less every week (when not held up by the group in front) and pushed the Scratch Pot game guys all around the course.  Pace of play has very little to do with how many shots you take and much more with how fast you take them and how smart you are at other things like leaving your clubs in the right place etc.

[Doug Siebert]

Shivas,

While I'll agree that some pre-shot routines are out of hand, I still maintain that it doesn't hold a candle to the "honor system" and just plain not being ready.  You look at a slow group, and you'll see players who don't even being to do stuff like putting their glove on/taking it off, getting their club out, checking the yardage, checking the wind, checking their lie, etc. until it is their turn (and often they have to be told, "you're up")  Any savings they get by having a speedy "tee in ground to ball on ground" time are lost by all that screwing around, while a mind numbingly slow guy with a 45 second "tee in ground to ball on ground" time could match them easily on a per shot basis if he's getting all that stuff out of the way first (if he's at address and ready to go when they are hitting, most of his 45 seconds can overlap with other players, except on the tee)

I think you are much more likely to find a foursome where all four guys are never ready to play and don't begin to line up their putts (from both sides) until they are away, don't get their driver out of their bag, remove the headcover, fish in their pocket for a tee, wash their ball, etc. until it is their turn, etc. than you are to find a foursome of guys who all take 45 seconds from "tee in ground to ball on ground".  I'll play behind a group with one glacial preshot routine versus the equally likely group with four guys who are never ready to play.  Of course nothing would be worse than four guys who take 45 seconds per shot and are never ready to play, but luckily most courses frown on six hour rounds

[JohnV]

John, it has EVERYTHING to do with how many strokes you take.

Shivas, your entire argument is based on the opposite of this statement.  You just said that if we both shot 80 in the same way you'd beat me because of my 40 second preshot routine.  Well, we both shot 80 so how does it have EVERYTHING to do with how many strokes I took?

By the way, if you leave your bag 30 yards in the wrong direction (say at the front of the green when the exit is at the back) and you have to walk back and get it and then walk back to the rear of the green, you'll have walked an extra 60 yards which will take about 36 seconds, not 10.  I see guys do it all the time.  They leave their shot just short of the green.  They chip to the flag and walk up to mark the ball leaving the bag at the front.  Then when they hole is done they remember that they have to get the bag.  Doh!

The pace of play requirements, when on the clock, for the LPGA are based on the total number of strokes on the hole.  You get something like 1:10 minute for 4 shots, 1:20 for 5 etc.  Tap-ins don't count.  But even if all three players in the group hit it 4 times on a hole and use their entire 3:30 minutes, it will take 12 or more minutes to play a par 4.  8:30 minutes are taken up in ways that have NOTHING to do with the shot at hand.  

Pre-shot routines for most golfers are not that long.  But, they still get behind.  The get behind because they aren't ready to start their pre-shot routine when it is there turn to play or because they waste time going places they shouldn't or by telling the latest old joke on the tee or by not watching where one of the guys just hit his ball so they can't find it even though it is in plain sight in the rough or dozens of other reasons.  When I play with three guys who are riding, they are amazed how easily I find their golf balls.  It is because I watch and then I walk straight to the ball while they drive to another guy's ball, and then sit there while he hits and then drive over to look by which time they've lost the line of where to look.  None of these things have anything to do with pre-shot routines.

[JohnV]

Dave, if you don't believe how fast my ex and her friends could play, ask Tommy, Craig Edgmand, Peter Pittock or jmkirk.  They've all played with her and/or her friends and I think they'd confirm their speed while taking more than 100 shots.  By the way, jmkirk's wife is another of these ladies and she learned very quickly how to play fast by playing with them.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Shivas,
In response to your post #50, if you don't think a couple of guys can walk and play in less then 3, then you need to spend a liittle more time in the old country. I played 8 rounds in Scotland and the longest was 4 hours almost to the minute at TOC and Carnoustie, both 4 balls and early afternoon tee times on busy days. In the same day my buddy and I played both Turnberry and Western Gails in less then 6 hours total time golfing, both courses were fairly empty and we did not rush. We never thought about pace of play, just played the game like we always do. On Sep 23 I'm going off at Bandon at 7:30 with the same buddy, it'll be interesting to see what the pace is like at BD.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Dave,

        I'm a pretty fast golfer for the most part, but you better be on your toes if your going to keep up with John V or his ex-wife. She and her friend don't mess around and you better not slow them down.

[ForkaB]

I used to be insanely fast, but then I discovered golfclubatlas.com..........

Now I spend at least 5 minutes on every hole (that's 6600 seconds for those of you not mathematically inclined) critiquing the architecture and/or archaeologically examining the vestiges of long lost bunkers.

Fortunately, my new 3 1/2-4 hour pace keeps me finely placed just in front of the group behind and not pressing the group ahead at my courses.  It also is consonant with my incipient morbidity.

[DMoriarty]

I once played so fast that I had to play through myself . . . twice.  

[Jeff Goldman]

Shivas,  

PETARD ALERT! PETARD ALERT! PETARD ALERT!

Recall the fourball you, I, Paul Richards and John Lovito played at Olympia Fields early May of this year.  We teed off after 4 because Paul got held up in traffic.  John and I played rotten, me shooting 95 or so, John was worse, Paul went something like 47-39, and you went something like 34-47 (depending on how many you hit ob on 14).  Recall how long it took?  Got dark before 8, and we finished well before dark.  Does that count as fast?

[JohnV]

I used to be insanely fast, but then I discovered golfclubatlas.com..........

Now I spend at least 5 minutes on every hole (that's 6600 seconds for those of you not mathematically inclined) critiquing the architecture and/or archaeologically examining the vestiges of long lost bunkers.

You forgot how much time GCAers take shooting pictures to post for all their geeky friends who don't get to see the latest Fazio botch at Riviera or Rees Jones containment mounts for themselves.

[JakaB]

When is it rude to play too fast....I can't stand a single that thinks they have the right to go through every group on a course.....If you want to play in under three hours shouldn't you accept the fact you should just skip a few holes and play on the open part of the course......Doesn't every foresome playing a nice money game in under four hours have the right not to have balls landing and gay ass pirate eye stares being thrown at their backs while they try to save a whole hog sausage over a three foot putt to tie......I'd rather wait and play in 4:15 than play in 3:50 and let three twosomes go through.....rude no putt outing fast playing bastards..

[A.G. Crockett]

Doesn't every foresome playing a nice money game in under four hours have the right not to have balls landing and gay ass pirate eye stares being thrown at their backs while they try to save a whole hog sausage over a three foot putt to tie.

....rude no putt outing fast playing bastards..

The above is one of the great pieces of golf writing in history.  I plan to use the phrase "gay ass pirate eye stares" this Sat. at the latest!

[Mike_Golden]

Doesn't every foresome playing a nice money game in under four hours have the right not to have balls landing and gay ass pirate eye stares being thrown at their backs while they try to save a whole hog sausage over a three foot putt to tie......I'd rather wait and play in 4:15 than play in 3:50 and let three twosomes go through.....rude no putt outing fast playing bastards..

This has got to be one of the most disingenuous quotes of all time considering Mr. Kavanaugh was one of the foursome at Barona who, after, going out first, proceeded to play in over 5 hours, held up the entire field, and never offered to let a single group through.  My guess is that the last time Mr. Kavanaugh played in under 4 hours was the last time he played only 9 holes.

[Dan Kelly]

Now I spend at least 5 minutes on every hole (that's 6600 seconds for those of you not mathematically inclined) critiquing the architecture and/or archaeologically examining the vestiges of long lost bunkers.

Let's see now.

5 x 60 = 300.

300 x 18 = 5,400.

6,600 - 5,400 = 1,200

1,200/60 = 20

Just how are you spending those unaccounted-for 20 minutes, Prof. Goodale?

Hunting for Tom Paul's dog?

And they say you shouldn't trust a journalist with numbers! (Or, of course, without!)

[ForkaB]

Dan

Good to see that at least someone is practicing their numeracy.  My calculations were based on the old Old Course.  Being the traditionalist that I am, I play all courses as if they were 22-holers.  It does wonders for the handicap, too!

[Mike_Golden]

Dave,

I don't know Mr. Kavanaugh  but if Barney doesn't think a field of 40 people he knows in one way or another a time to be considerate of others that probably says all that needs to be said about this topic...

[Mike_Golden]

Dave,

I can see you're getting pretty emotional about this but have you ever been hit, almost been hit, or seen someone else hit by a golf ball?  I have, and it's an ugly sight.  So I never want to be in a position where I have to think I might hit someone, so waiting until everyone has cleared the green seems to me a requirement before getting ready to hit a golf shot.  I have enough uncertainty in my game so that adding the uncertainty that I could potentially hit someone just makes it a certainty that I will hit a bad shot.

Of course, if you will indemnify us from the liability incurred by hitting someone and provide pro bono defense, maybe we'd reconsider

[Rick Shefchik]

I'm with Mike on this one. I hate having a ball land on the green before everyone in my group is off, even if it's a very wide green and the pin is on the opposite side from where we're leaving.

I'll wait till the group ahead of us is well clear of the green before I hit. If we've been waiting for them while they putt, we'll catch them again on the next hole, anyway.

[Jeff Goldman]

Every time a pace of play thread starts, I refer to Bill ___ (I can no longer remeber his name), an expert on pace of play, who does studies, has a website, and works with courses to improve pace of play.  My recollection is that his studies show that tee time spacing is one of the key elements, but I have referred to his work so many times I can't remember it anymore.  I think he posted here or was discussed here a few years ago.  Anybody with a better memory than I to help out on this??

Jeff Goldman

[Mike_Golden]

Shivas,

Why do you think all these aspects of slow play are mutually exclusive?

We all agree that taking 5 seconds off everyone's preshot routine will reduce the time it takes to play by 30 minutes if there are a total of 360 shots made by the group.

But, like the Master Card commercial, there are other ways to save significant amounts of time:

Conceding all putts within 18 inches- 4 players x 20 seconds x 9 out of 18 holes=  12 minutes

Leaving bags behind the green so you don't have to walk to the front= 9 holes x 1 minute= 9 minutes

Not opening beer cans on the tee= 6 cans x 4 players x 10 seconds=5.67 minutes  Note:  Jewish foursomes don't drink beer so this isn't possible on courses such as Lake Merced, Seawane, and Quaker Ridge

Not telling stupid jokes on the tee before hitting your driver in the cabbage= 7 minutes (unless it's a good joke, then it might be 12 minutes)

Marking down an 'X' instead of walking all the way back to the tee after you've stupidly not hit a provisional and spent more than the allotted 5 minutes searching- 10 minutes

Not spending time flirting with the refhreshment cart girl-10 minutes  (waived for single guys)

Not looking at every putt from all conceivable angles after it's already your turn- 15 minutes (or much more)

Playing in a fourball in under 3 1/2 hours and having a great time while doing it....PRICELESS

[TEPaul]

"Bill really does get to the heart of the matter."

Bob Huntley:

I hadn't read this thread but this is what you said in the initial post!!! Are you talking about Bill Vostinak?? If so, I can't believe a discerning man such as yourself could ever say such a thing about Bill Vostinak! He may get to the heart of the matter but it's always some matter that's anything but the matter at hand being discussed. I think Bill Vostinak's middle name has to be Nonsequitor!  

Fastest player ever? It might be one Goose Clement, a past president of my own Gulph Mills G.C. Goose, a great athlete and runner played GMGC hitting every shot and holing everything out in something like 38 minutes!!! Maybe it was even less. I think he might have been trying for a world record and may have done it. Of course it did take some logistical planning like handing him clubs on the fly and stuff like that!

This was apparently in connection with his good friend and compatriot Russell Etherington, another past president of GMGC who when younger must have felt somewhat closeted by NYC when he lived and worked there as he designed these golf games teeing off within his apartment, then out the door, down the hall, into the elevator, around the lobby, out into the street, perhaps a couple of loops around Times Square or some other similar NYC geography and then back again eventually ending up back in his apartment.

There're many members of my club who, although great fun are simply not normal!!

[ForkaB]

There're many members of my club who, although great fun are simply not normal!!

Hmmmmm.  This is triggering a synapse in my brain. but I just can't quite figure out what or whom it might be referring to..........

[DMoriarty]

Shivas, endless preshot routines definitely slow things up, but I see them more as a symptom than a cause.  Fast or slow, pace is a state of mind.  

Faster players generally realize that a brisk pace as an integral part of enjoyable golf.  Plus they are polite enough to try to avoid inconveniencing their fellow golfers.  So they dont develop inordinately long preshot routines.

In contrast, slow players paid there money and will play at whatever pace they like.  Never mind the 160+ golfers who may be waiting on them.

For a good indication of who plays fast and slow, hang out in the full parking lot of a crowded course.  When someone is waiting for their parking spot, a fast player will get done what he has to get done (shoes off, bag in, etc.) and then get out of the way.  Not hurrying but not wasting time either.   In contrast, a slow player will somehow manage to take even longer than  he usually would to exit the space, as if to prove that they are in charge and will act when they damn well please.  
_____________

I do agree with one point though, we all think we are faster than we are.   After I recently commented on our recent slower rounds a few regular playing partners said that one of the reasons we were playing slower than usual was that I was hitting more shots and spending more time looking for more balls (my game is Duvalling.)  On reflection I realized they were likely correct.   Not much immediate I could do about the number of shots (I tried to move to up tees but to no success) but I did swear off playing any ball which cost over $20 a dozen until my game improved.  My game hasnt improved much but my pace has.

My point?  We could all probably use a little critical self-evaluation when it comes to pace issues.  

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