Would you change this hole?

[Brian_Gracely]

[Sorry these pictures aren't better...I'm working to get better angles]

This is the 3rd hole from my home club (Raleigh CC), which is a Par3 that plays anywhere from 170yds (front-tees)-200yds(back-tees).....typical Ross long tee-box.  For many years it's been considered one of the top holes in the state, but it's not the original hole that was in place when the course was built (1948 - we're the last Ross design).  



The current hole has a green that slopes hard from back to front and left to right. OB is along the right side.  The green complex hasn't changed, but the bunkering has.  Originally, the left side was a grass bunker (hollow) and the right side was a bunker.  In fact, the right side bunker was even deeper than the current right-side swale as that side was raised to better handle drainage.

Right side swale


This picture shows the severity of the green.....3 is a great score on this hole....3 putts can happen from as close as 2'.


Strategically the hole plays very well today because you often fear OB right and will pull a ball into the left bunker.  Getting up & down is almost impossible as the green runs away from you....very fast.  Missing right flirts with OB, but up & down is possible from the swale.  Missing long is dead because the green runs away from you.  Missing short is the best miss as the chip is uphill and manageable.  

The club is in the process of trying to return the course to the original setup and architecture.  So if the bunkering is returned to the right side, and the right side potentially lowered, it brings in the chance that majority of shots into the bunker will end up on a downhill lie or balls will bounce OB.  And depending on how the left-hand swale would mowed, it might be easier to get up and down from that grass bunker.

So, would you leave the hole as-is and the current challenge, or would you restore the hole to its original design?  NOTE:  The hole hasn't had a bunker left in 10+ years, and the membership has had huge turnover, so few members recall the playablility of reversed bunkering.  

[RJ_Daley]

I think it is fine because it is plenty long and your description of a pretty severe green is enough to challenge by just getting it on and two putting.  I like the grass swale replacing the sand because sand bunkers are often the only thing folks think of as a hazard at greenside, and this sort of set up makes for more interesting pitches and flops from the thick grass for those who miss the green off the tee.

[Pete Buczkowski]

Brian,

Sorry to hear about the onslaught of changes they are proposing at your club.  

Is the prevailing thought that the hole is more difficult with the bunker right instead of left?  I think it would lighten the visual from the tee, at least for the occasional guest.  That tee shot put the fear of God in me - it appears that anything right will go OB and the bunker left is very intimidating from the tee.

I think its quite a severe hole - very exciting for the good player but too difficult for double digit handicaps.  I imagine the original bunker right was meant to be a "catch bunker".  Would you say the old green configuration has a similar feel to the 1st green complex at PH #2?  If the bunker was right, more people would bail out left - but that chip shot would be really difficult; I would wager that many people would chip it into the bunker.

BTW, did they put a plaque left of the bunker in honor of Scott yet?  Are they putting in those chipping areas you suggested?

[A_Clay_Man]

Couple of things don't make sense: Drainage problems on the right? C'mon that's the B.s. excuse for the containment bunker? Idn't it? Containment from stoping somone's ball from going O.B.. That hillock looks like it would have no drainage problems what so ever. But pictures can be deceiving.

From the general sense, I get, The bunker belongs left, for all those who want to bail-out (reads wimp) and avoid the O.B. at all cost.

That is one cool mound of a green, if I see it correctly.

[Brian_Gracely]

Is the prevailing thought that the hole is more difficult with the bunker right instead of left?  I think it would lighten the visual from the tee, at least for the occasional guest.  That tee shot put the fear of God in me - it appears that anything right will go OB and the bunker left is very intimidating from the tee.

The membership thinks the hole is plenty difficult, as do most others that play the course.  The reasoning behind the potential change is a restoration of the original hole configuration.

I think its quite a severe hole - very exciting for the good player but too difficult for double digit handicaps.  I imagine the original bunker right was meant to be a "catch bunker".  Would you say the old green configuration has a similar feel to the 1st green complex at PH #2?  If the bunker was right, more people would bail out left - but that chip shot would be really difficult; I would wager that many people would chip it into the bunker.

Alot of people will chip it from the current bunker into the swale, so you're probably right that it wouldn't change that mode.  

BTW, did they put a plaque left of the bunker in honor of Scott yet?  Are they putting in those chipping areas you suggested?

Not yet on the plaque  As far as chipping areas, many currently exist around the course.  The challenge is getting them firm enough to allow multiple options....and this is difficult with bermuda grass.  Not only does watering roll towards the chipping areas, but the grain in the grass grows downhill, so it's very tough to make them play firm when the grass is non-dormant.  They allow alot more options when the grass goes dormant as it lays down and plays firmer.

[Brian_Gracely]

Couple of things don't make sense: Drainage problems on the right? C'mon that's the B.s. excuse for the containment bunker? Idn't it? Containment from stoping somone's ball from going O.B.. That hillock looks like it would have no drainage problems what so ever. But pictures can be deceiving.

There is a creek that runs along the edge of the property (along OB line), so I think they used to get some overflow up into that swale/bunker as it used to be 5-6' lower (or so I'm told).  And if you've ever been in NC during a summer rain storm, you'd see how quickly alot of water can accumulate.

From the general sense, I get, The bunker belongs left, for all those who want to bail-out (reads wimp) and avoid the O.B. at all cost.

I'd generally agree.  That's definitely how the hole plays today.  And while members quickly learn that short is the best miss, you'd be surprised as how many people don't miss short.

It makes me wonder if complete restoration should always occur, or sometimes is it best to leave a good hole alone because while it's not the original, the new adaptation has proven itself over time....??

That is one cool mound of a green, if I see it correctly.

It's a fun hole to play.  And it fits in perfectly with Ross' give & take style, as #4 is a short Par4 birdie opportunity.

[Brian_Gracely]

Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but is a run-up (or on) the shot of choice - landing short left and running it on as an indirect play?  

This is a logical comment as you'd expect this option as the green is open in front.  But the areas in front of most of the greens are never very firm, at least not enough to allow a running shot into the green. I'm not sure if this is because of a combination of green-side watering running into this area, or the bermuda grass or if we just don't condition those areas well enough.  

In general I think our Superintendant does an excellent job setting up the course and especially the greens.  I'm curious to know how other Ross courses in the south keep their run-up & chipping areas firm.  NOTE:  While we're only about 45mins from Pinehurst, we're not blessed with the sandy soils that populate that area....we're in the red-clay zone.

Would replacing a bunker or swale left eliminate this play (By being in the line of run-up?  A closely mown swale is good.  They have two of them at #9 Fairfield CC on their Redan (not that this is a redan we're discussing here) which work well.  A quirky bounce or two results.  Even this is not a Redan, it can play indirectly very well as I think I see it if the course remains firm.

With the ground sloping left, I haven't seen many balls ever bounce left unless they were already in flight towards that bunker.  Most balls played short will bounce forward, right or just stop.

IS the tee box original?  IF not was it moved left or right or is moving it left or right to give this sort of play an option?

Thanks.  Looking forward to other pictures.  Take one from front left about 10-20 yards short, squatting down, please.

As best I can tell, the tee-box is original.  I don't believe any of the original tee-boxes have been moved or changed, although a few new tee-boxes were added (added distance..usually directly behind existing tees) when we used to host the Nike Carolina Classic in the mid-90s.  

I'll try and get some better pictures soon, and hopefully will have my "My Home Course" finalized in the next 1-2 weeks.

[Michael_Burrows]

Is that a walking path in the middle on the first picture from the tee? It looks like there is not much difference in the length of the grasses, plus it looks like it has been mowed several times to get burned in. What is up with the shrubs behind the green that is the most out of place thing I have seen from the pictures. The shrubs would be the first thing I would change and whatever type of flowers or plant that is next to the tee box would be next. I bet your course has a lot plants and shrubs? It is a CC so I'm sure you have a lot of lady members that want their golf course to look pretty but if I was the super and I had to look at that I would go crazy. It is a waste of money and time to maintain something that is so unimportant does not improve the golf course. I'm not saying that there are not certain places where shrubs and other plants can be place it fit in with the golf course but whatever that is next to the tee just stands out.    

[Donnie Beck]

You might consider re-routing the cart path.

[Brian_Gracely]

Is that a walking path in the middle on the first picture from the tee? It looks like there is not much difference in the length of the grasses, plus it looks like it has been mowed several times to get burned in.

That is simply a single cut (to fairway width) through the rough.  The course was designed to be walked and the majority of the membership does walk.  The path exists on almost every hole.

What is up with the shrubs behind the green that is the most out of place thing I have seen from the pictures. The shrubs would be the first thing I would change and whatever type of flowers or plant that is next to the tee box would be next. I bet your course has a lot plants and shrubs?

The shrubs in the third picture are on the far side of the 4th tee (next hole).  They don't come into play on either hole.  they are simply there to provide some buffer from the couple of houses that border the course.  

There are two small areas on the course that have some ornamental bushes/shrubs/flowers and essentially serve as a buffer on a few holes were the tees and greens come very close to each other and stray balls could cause harm to players.  They are NOT purely decorative.  

It is a CC so I'm sure you have a lot of lady members that want their golf course to look pretty but if I was the super and I had to look at that I would go crazy. It is a waste of money and time to maintain something that is so unimportant does not improve the golf course. I'm not saying that there are not certain places where shrubs and other plants can be place it fit in with the golf course but whatever that is next to the tee just stands out.    

Bad assumption on your part. And that Country Club comment is a nice generality to make your incorrect point, but I guess it would also apply to Oakmont CC, Oak Hill CC, Oakland Hills CC and a few other well-known ladies tracks....no??

[Brian_Gracely]

You might consider re-routing the cart path.

Good observation.  We have a number of areas where the cart-paths will be re-routed.  It's a shame they couldn't be removed entirely, but we might have to ask about 1/3 of the membership to leave if that happened.  We're looking into some more natural surfaces as well.  Wish we could use sand, like Pinehurst, but unfortunately the course is build on clay and there are a number of hills on the course that would be washed away with rain.

[Paul Richards]

Some 'tree management' here is in order!

 

[Brian_Gracely]

Some 'tree management' here is in order!

 

Where would you suggest?  

[Scott_Burroughs]

BTW, did they put a plaque left of the bunker in honor of Scott yet?  Are they putting in those chipping areas you suggested?

Pete,

Making a once-a-year chip (left of bunker, over bunker to green running away fast to 3 feet below the hole) doesn't mean squat when you miss the putt.  

BTW, how's the Mouse treatin' ya?  

[Michael_Burrows]

"they are simply there to provide some buffer from the couple of houses that border the course."  

I really don't think that a shrub two feet tall is going to protect any house or golfer from a bad shot.

 

[Brian_Gracely]

"they are simply there to provide some buffer from the couple of houses that border the course."  

I really don't think that a shrub two feet tall is going to protect any house or golfer from a bad shot.

Michael,

The bushes along the edge of the property are there to provide some privacy buffer, not to protect the homes.  There are only about a half-dozen homes and they aren't close enough to get hit by balls.

There are a few tree and bush areas left on the course because of the proximity of routing between tees and greens on most holes.  Below is a picture of the distance between #16 (green) and #17.  You'd be surprised at how many balls get blocked by those trees and bushes from stray shots.  It's a small architectural price to pay for the intimate routing (and walking) we enjoy.