Regional Architects?

[Jeff_Mingay]

It's been stated that Doug Carrick's work has been very regional in scope. Thinking about it, almost all of Canada's golf course designers do regional work.

Carrick and Tom McBroom in the Toronto area (with a few notable exceptions); Les Furber out west; and, Graham Cooke and co. in Quebec and the Maritimes.

I think Ian would agree that this scenario has made for too many courses much too alike in each region. There's not a lot of great variety. At least for my tastes.

Who are some regional guys trying unique things, Ian? That's an excellent question. Of course, I'll be accused of bias, but Rod Whitman in Alberta is my answer!  

[John_Cullum]

Also in Florida, Steve Smyers and Ron Garl. Although Smyers is getting out a little. Both can do good stuff.

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

More power to you if you want to take the opportunity to spend time with your family ... but then why complain about not working in the USA?  Our new border security would soon make you rue the day you took a job here.

There have always been a lot of regional architects for reasons of cost effectiveness and time effectiveness.  When you travel extensively, you spend a lot of your time traveling rather than designing.

However, I have thought that in recent years, the market has gone the other way.  It is hard to keep working in a region once your name is familiar there, because new entries want to market themselves as being different, and they market on the basis of who designed the course.  In fact, regional architects generally miss out on the best sites in their own region, because developers think they need a bigger name to separate themselves from the smaller, successful regional courses.

 

[ian]

Tom,

I wasn't complaining, I just wanted to point out that it is harder than people think to get new golf projects in other regions.

You have had great success (well deserved I might add too), but have dedicated a hell of a lot more time than the rest of us, to make that happen. Again, I think people on this site do not have a clue how much time you spend away from home, and I'm sure it comes at a price some times.

I'm more interested in people understanding why the "regional" architect happens.


Jeff,

Your right, unless the architect shows some ability to keep changing there style, you get a lot of courses that look and play similar in a region; BUT a region can be fortunate when a good architect is in that region, ie. all the Flynn courses around Philly.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Good point re: Flynn in the Philly area, Ian.

Flynn's brilliance might be attributable to "natural golf architecture". I think he allowed the inherent landscape to dictate golf course design more than many contemporary architects do. Flynn's courses generally exhibit more variety than so many modern creations as a result.  

In  most cases, when too much artificial construction occurs, the potential for true variety is lost. Don't you think?  

[SPDB]

After the early part of his career with Thompson, Cornish  became a regional architect completing jobs almost exclusively in the New England area. I'd be interested to see how many different new or existing courses he either designed, consulted on or renovated in NE.

[jg7236]

David Savic-Columbus, Ohio area

[Michael Whitaker]

Also, Bill Bergin is a terrific young architect who has done several very good courses in Tennessee and Alabama, including the University Club course at Auburn.  He is completing a course in Dothan, AL right now, and is in the process of a Ross restoration in Chattanooga.

AG - Bill Bergin created an outstanding course in upstate SC called Woodfin Ridge. The course is the cornerstone of a real estate development. The owners didn't really know what they had until local golfers discovered the course was a real gem. No one in the area had ever heard of Bergin until he did this course. And, his name is not mentioned on anything... not the scorecard, marketing materials, web site, nothing! The story goes that the developers just wanted a "nice" course to help sell property... what they got was an outstanding layout that has the golf community buzzing. Of all the public access courses in Upstate SC I think Woodfin Ridge has the best layout and design features. I'm dying to know what the budget was for the course. I'll bet this was one big "bang for your buck" project.

What is Bergin's background? Did he apprentice with someone?

[A.G._Crockett]

Also, Bill Bergin is a terrific young architect who has done several very good courses in Tennessee and Alabama, including the University Club course at Auburn.  He is completing a course in Dothan, AL right now, and is in the process of a Ross restoration in Chattanooga.

AG - Bill Bergin created an outstanding course in upstate SC called Woodfin Ridge. The course is the cornerstone of a real estate development. The owners didn't really know what they had until local golfers discovered the course was a real gem. No one in the area had ever heard of Bergin until he did this course. And, his name is not mentioned on anything... not the scorecard, marketing materials, web site, nothing! The story goes that the developers just wanted a "nice" course to help sell property... what they got was an outstanding layout that has the golf community buzzing. Of all the public access courses in Upstate SC I think Woodfin Ridge has the best layout and design features. I'm dying to know what the budget was for the course. I'll bet this was one big "bang for your buck" project.

What is Bergin's background? Did he apprentice with someone?

Michael,
Bill Bergin was an All-American at Auburn after being a HS golf teammate of Bob Tway in Marietta, GA.  He played professionally for several years, mostly on the European tour, and then apprenticed with Bob Cupp.  He went out on his own several years ago, and has done quite well despite not being well-known.  He is tremendously bright, very studious, and "gets it"!  The University Club course at Auburn is just absolutely terrific; get there if you ever have the chance.

I'm really glad to hear that you liked his work at Woodfin.  I have yet to hear anybody who has played any of his courses say anything else!

BTW, as a player, he won the GA State Open in 1981; I believe that he was the second youngest winner of the event to Bobby Jones.  He just regained his amateur status in Jan., and played in the event last month after a 23 year hiatus!

[Mike_Young]

Tom Doak mentions some of the difficulties of getting the good sites etc when viewed as a regional architect.  
The biggest problem I see with being a regional architect is the "lack of control" one has over his finished courses.  The public does not realize that most signatures require a specific budget amount as well as some type of control over maintenance specifications.  In the regional scenario price is usually a factor and therefore an owner may choose to maintain as he wishes.  Fact is the general public equates architecture to the maintenance level of a course therefore a mediocre signature in an area may be perceived as better than a regional architect's work simple because the signature required a marketing, maintenance and construction budget that the regional could not control.
And on another note....I think it is much easier to evolve from a regional architect in some areas than others.  Foor example in the northeast and midwest a course could be identical to a southeastern course but have an entirely different look simply because of a contrast in the grasses.  It photographs better.  I think Fla is probably the hardest to evolve from and the midwest and NE the easiest.  
IMHO Budgets control architecture plain and simple.  A famous dead architect once told me that the hardest part of this business was being able to get past your bad courses.  To do this he said one must constantly be striving to acquire larger and larger budgets for construction.  Some consider him the best salesman architect ever...he was correct...becoming non-regional is 95% BIG BUDGET

[Mark Brown]

Although Art Hills is not a regional architect, he has dozens in Naples, FL and has renovated Chevy Chase, Bethesda, and possibly Burning Tree (?) in D.C.

Hills hasn't produced any great courses but he's cranked out scores of courses that are pretty good, and I've never played a Hills course that was bad.

Gene Hamm (possibly the worst architect ever) has quite a few in Myrtle Beach.

[David Kelly]

I forgot about Ted McAnlis who designed probably over a dozen courses in the Sarasota-Bradenton area of Florida.  Of course unless he has access to CAD software in the joint his golf course architecture days are over.

[Michael Whitaker]

AG - Thanks for the info on Mr. Bergin. I will definitely try to visit Auburn's course.

By the way... Do you have any background information on D. J. DeVictor? He is credited with designing Clemson University's "Walker Course." I have searched this site but there is no mention of him and I have found very little of substance with Google.

[A.G._Crockett]

AG - Thanks for the info on Mr. Bergin. I will definitely try to visit Auburn's course.

By the way... Do you have any background information on D. J. DeVictor? He is credited with designing Clemson University's "Walker Course." I have searched this site but there is no mention of him and I have found very little of substance with Google.

Michael,
Wow!  I know two (and only two!) golf course architects, and you've asked me about them both on this thread!  Thanks!  
Somebody, maybe Mike Young, gave some info about D.J. DeVictor here several months back.  He did the Champions courses here in Atlanta for Steve Melnyk, did a makeover of a course called Royal Lakes in Gainesville, GA for the new owners, and is about to break ground (I believe) on a new course in Cherokee County on the northwest side of Atlanta.  I know D.J. only because he lives in Roswell, and has nine kids, most of whom I have taught.  I still play golf a couple of times a year with his oldest son Nathan who was a star for us at Roswell HS, and then played some collegiate golf before going to work for his dad.

I don't know what D.J. has done outside the metro area, and I don't know why there isn't more information about him available.  BTW, I'll see Bill Bergin at church in a few minutes, and I'll be sure to tell him that you said great things about Woodfin Ridge.

[Greg Beaulieu]

It's been stated that Doug Carrick's work has been very regional in scope. Thinking about it, almost all of Canada's golf course designers do regional work.

Carrick and Tom McBroom in the Toronto area (with a few notable exceptions); Les Furber out west; and, Graham Cooke and co. in Quebec and the Maritimes.

It's true, I think, that the people who develop golf courses around here in Nova Scotia (at least until recently) tend to look at courses nearby and select as their architect one who did a local course they like. As a result we have a lot of Graham Cooke and Cornish & Robinson designs in the region. Given that (aside from the classic Thompson designs at Highland Links and Digby) a lot of older courses here tended to look like they just happened and didn't have the same sort of "designed" appearance as a Cooke or C&R course, those two firms tended to be seen as a big step up from the alternative of letting somebody who was a friend of the developer (or the developer themselves) put their idea of a course on the site, although that still seems to happen at times.

If my club, Brightwood in Dartmouth, decides to go forward with a relocation, they have already selected Les Furber's firm as the architect following a committee evaluation that also considered (working from faulty memory) Cooke, C&R, and Steve Miller. I understand Furber has done a little work downeast (Glasgow Hills in PEI, any reviews?) but it should be interesting to see how his style differs from the usual suspects here. A web search also showed that his name is associated with renovations to Chester Golf Club in the early-mid 90's, which I was not particularly enamored of, and which I understand have been worked on subsequently by Cooke. We shall see.

Generally the economics in this area cannot justify big-name designers like Nicklaus. Although interestingly enough, a few years ago when I was in a different job I was slightly involved with a group in Cape Breton that was proposing to build a resort course on a reclaimed mine site on the coast in Inverness that could be spectacular if it ever happens. Initially they were proposing Michael Hurdzan as the architect, then somewhere along the way switched to Nicklaus (at least they were throwing his name around). Either would be a first for the area although I don't know how it could ever work out economically. I spoke with Lorne Rubenstein, the golf writer, on the subject at the time and he offered that if I had any influence at all, I should get the developers to speak with Donald Steel, who designed Redtail in the Toronto area. He was very high on Steel and the design although I have subsequently heard some people have a different view of it. Nevertheless, that did not happen and right now I don't know if the project is even proceeding. If not it's unfortunate, if for no other reason than to get some design diversity in the area.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike Y:

Certainly budgets are a factor, but I don't know if the big names "demand" a certain maintenance budget and a certain marketing budget; they just attract the type of clients who are likely to spend $$ on those things.

That is one of the supreme ironies of our business ... that after hiring a big-name designer, developers spend big bucks on promoting them, too.  If you took the same money and promoted a lesser-known designer's course, it might succeed just as well.

However, I don't agree that the budget is 95% of the success ratio.  If it is, then I must've done pretty well on the other five per cent.

[A_Clay_Man]

None of the Chicago contingent must've read this thread.

Did Killian and Nugent ever venture far from Chicago?

[Cliff Hamm]

I do wish the 'big names' would be willing to do more a mix of courses - private, up scale and affordable public.  I don't want to call this pro bono as one deserves to get paid for their work, but once you are in the rarified air of Nicklaus, Jones, Fazio, etc. wouldn't it be nice to give back to the general golfing public and work for a reduced fee for affordable public golf?  This would serve to allow the general golfing public to get away from playing similar architectural designs over and over again in their area.  When Pete Dye did Wintobury Hills in Connecticuit for $1 my respect for him increased astronomically.  In New England we are fortunate that Donald Ross designed at least some courses that are affordable munis and a pleasure to play. I just wish more 'big names' would be willing to get away from the prestige of high end courses and give back a bit.  Money is not everything and the challenge of working on a much more limited budget would also showcase the truely most talented.

Cliff

[Bob Longmire]

John Bredemus was an important person in the early days of
Texas golf.  Most notable courses - Colonial and Memorial Park.  Not the most noted architect but he designed many courses across the state and Harvey Penick (I believe) identified him as playing an important role in bringing Golf to Texas.  

Another regional architect was Tom Bendelow.

[Tom_Doak]

Cliff:

There is so much wrong with your last post I hardly know where to start.

First off, I don't think any of the regional architects we've talked about would be too happy if Nicklaus and Fazio started taking their jobs away, too.  Of course they could afford to ... just like big companies in any business could drive out the smaller ones if they wanted to.  Let's hope they don't.

Second, I would venture to say that there are some [SOME, not all] big-name architects who have forgotten how to build a golf course on a reasonable budget, not to mention a couple who never knew how in the first place.

The economics of the business do tend to stratify golf course architects into certain niches.  Just as the regional architects complain about not getting enough respect and being held back, the big names sometimes complain about not getting the best sites.  The reason for this is that a big part of their fee is justified by the value of their "name" to convince golfers they will turn an average piece of ground into something special ... but when a developer has a great piece of ground which will make an excellent course, he doesn't need to pay a premium for a name.

The problem with lowering one's fee is that it's hard to justify to all the rest of your clients.  Also, in the end, architects don't control the economics of the situation ... before Wintonbury Hills, Pete Dye did another of those $1 courses, which the developer then sold [wih Pete's name] for a tidy profit.

I will consider projects paying less than our normal fee, if I can justify that they are more convenient for us to work on, or if the developer will offer us some sort of royalty compensation in case they wind up being very profitable.  Unfortunately, there are regional architects here who are doing those jobs instead!

[Cliff Hamm]

Tom

Your first two points are valid although I do think your beginning words are a tad much.  My intention is certainly not to harm the regional architects but that  is certainly not why the big names avoid smaller projects. Indeed it is unfortunate if architects can't build on a reasonable budget and that was my point about true talent being able to design with lesser means....

 I do vehemntly disagree though with your comment  "The problem with lowering one's fee is that it's hard to justify to all the rest of your clients."   You may disagree but I hardly think you need to justify your fee to a high end developer if you lower your fees for a muni.  Again, I will make the legal analogy for better or worse that if a top name attorney lowers his fee for a cause he believes in his talents will still be retained by those who trust his abilities.  You are correct that if your name is taken advantage of to make an excessive profit you deserve to share in it.  But could you not negotiate a restriction on green fees, keep it to munis and not developers, etc?  I do not accept that there is so much wrong with my post.  I do believe that we all have an obligation to give back and high end architects could begin by making top public access golf more affordable for the masses but the vast majority choose not to.

Cliff

[Mike_Young]

Tom,
I do think it is common for several of the larger names to let the developer know he will need a specific minimum budget if they are to be involved.  I have seen that first hand.
As you state, all areas increase when a big name is involved.  They usually specify two or three contractors that a developer has to use which inflates the cost, and they load it up with consultants.  And then comes marketing, maintenance.  Some even wish to hire the supt.  All of this is good if you can get it.  But it can be done for much less as you know.
When I say budget is 95%, I may be exaggerating slightly but much of the junk land that is built on today could not be used if it wasn't for big name budgets.  AND I know what you mean about the other 5%.

[Tom_Doak]

Cliff:

The other objection I had to your post is your unspoken assumption that we would have better municipal courses if Nicklaus, Jones and Fazio designed them, instead of the architects who are building them now.  Are you sure about that?  If it was your tax dollars at work, would you put your money on those guys?

Municipal projects are hard to generalize ... some of them nowadays seem to go not to the regional architects, but big-name architects with big-dollar goals behind them.  [See the recent posts on the City of LaQuinta's project for one example.]  In fact, it is hard to find a municipality willing to take a chance on a little-known architect who might save them a few hundred thousand dollars ... most go through an RFP process and then choose someone with a "proven track record," even if the record is one of mediocrity.

I don't disagree with your assessment that there are a lot of banal public golf courses in America, but that is more the fault of the second paragraph above, than the lack of big-name designs.

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff:

The other objection I had to your post is your unspoken assumption that we would have better municipal courses if Nicklaus, Jones and Fazio designed them, instead of the architects who are building them now.  Are you sure about that?  If it was your tax dollars at work, would you put your money on those guys?

Not necesarily but I would on Tom Doak

[RJ_Daley]

Art Johnson, about 25-30 courses and remodels in southern Wisconsin.  Art is very independent, and not much for the tartan blazer set.  His work is quite "municipal" but functional.  He knows his stuff technically from a construction engineering side, and he knows GCA historically and design principles wise, then usually seems to choose to forgoe much of the design-historical stylizing, and go with something geared to the daily fee or municipal market, and oriented to mid to high handicapper players.  

Homer Fieldhouse has also been a Wisconsin regional designer, who never quite did anything to attract much notice...