Bayside & Wild Horse

[Matt_Ward]

I just played Bayside today in Nebraska and have to ask those who have said on GCA that Wild Horse would be their choice to play eight times out of ten when stacked up against Bayside.

Frankly, I don't see the spread between the courses that far apart -- although Wild Horse does merit the edge IMHO.

I also was bewildered by the people who make issue of the back nine at Bayside. Can someone specifically tell me what is soooooooooo wrong with any number of the holes on that side? I don't doubt it's a tough walk but what is missing from a strategic aspect?

My only issue with Bayside is the maintenance. The course is way toooooooooooooooo lush on the tees and fairways. The element of firm and fast has been reduced on a good number of the holes and even some of the folks I encountered there were upset that a general softness makes the course play far different than it should play.

The putting surface at both Bayside and Wild Horse are each quite special and I believe that if Bayside ever had the wherewithal to add about 300 more yards it could be a good match for its big name brother in Gothenburg.

I enjoyed all the par-3's at Bayside although I think the 2nd is a tad overrated. The short par-4's are quite good -- the uphill 16th is quite tenacious even though it plays just over 300 yards.

I have read the comments of a few dissenters on Bayside that the land there is quite inferior. I don't see it that way. I don't doubt the course is short -- just under 6,600 yards -- but the elements of quality design is there for people who know how to golf their ball and understand as Clint Eastwood has said -- "a man's got to know his limitations."

P.S. I was told that another course is being scoped out in the Dunes housing section just down the road from Bayside and rumor has it that possibly Davis Love III will design the course. Given the sheer spectacular nature of the land in the area I just wonder why other architects are not being considered.

[Jason Hines]

Hi Matt,

Good to see you finally made it.  I am surprised the conditions were soft?  I am one of the 8-2 in favor of WH, the course flows better and I like the property better at WH as well.  Remember though from my previous posts, I am very happy that Bayside is there and I would play it tomorrow if I could.  

What did you give it on the Doak Scale?

Jason

[ed_getka]

Matt,
  Glad to hear you made it over to Bayside. I think the back nine has a few good features, but isn't nearly as good as the front nine. I prefer the front nine of Bayside over either nine at Wild Horse.
   Bayside back nine. #10 forced carry drive, 90degree dogleg right, not bad. #11 long narrow par 5, basically threading a needle all the way down to the green. Another forced carry off the tee. #12 decent par 4. I particularly like the swale/bunker area that protects the left front of the green.
#13 par 3 tough hole that can only be played aerially, with an awkwardly sited green. #14 another forced carry par 4 off the tee. I really like the punchbowl green with the shelf back left.
#15 a TERRIBLE par 5 that doesn't work on ANY level. Can't possibly hold the green in two, and the layup is blind if playing the hole in 3 shots. #16 is a fun short par 4, although the only option for me was to go left to open up the length of the green for a pitch approach. The green isn't driveable so there isn't the lure to get you to try. #17 solid par 3 with a WILD green, made even wilder by the bunker in the middle a la Riviera. #18 decent finisher par 4.
   Are there any redeeming qualities to #15?
  The par 3's on the back are better than the front nine in my book, or at least more interesting.

[Matt_Ward]

Time is short for me to answer more fully -- my only reservation with Bayside are the following ...

1). The turf conditions were tooooooooo green on the tees and fairways. The course should play as fast as Wild Horse.

2). There are too many short par-3's that are rather similar in shot value demands. I liked the 17th and 5th holes -- but I just didn't think the 2nd was near as good as the others.

3). The overall length is on the shortish side and having one more length par-4 -- the 9th might be extended would add for a bit more flavor.

Overall, Wild Horse rates the edge but I don't see the range being thaaaaaaaaaaaat great to merit a 8-2 favoring for WH.

Jason:

On the Doak scale I would give Bayside no less than five (5). It could have been higher minus the items I mentioned above. The greensites throughout the course are well done and I just love the juxtaposition of the bunkering on a number of the holes. I mean how cool is the green at the short par-4 8th! Or the par-3 17th!

I would only add one more item -- there should be an extension of the bunker that hugs the right side of the par-5 15th hole. I reached the green with a drive and 9-iron (wind helping) and it allows too much grip and rip for the long hitter now.

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, Matt, Matt; there you have it.  You see most of us mortals would be happy to hit the 9 iron into 15 as well; but it is on our third shot!  That green might be OK if you can hit a lofted club in there to hold it.  But, it needs more room and some sort of recovery from the back of the green.  (perhaps they have tweaked the rear of 15 since I was last there?)

The 13th doesn't work too well either since it forces an aerial shot just perfectly placed on the high left side to hold, from my limitted experience there.

There is no doubt it is a fun course to play.  The front is very good, with plenty of exciting shots, angles and wild greens.  But, the routing, the consistent theme and flow of the holes, and the maintenance just isn't in Wild Horses league.  Yet, there are holes (rating them short or long par 4s or 3s) comparatively at Bayside that I'd say are better than Wild Horses.

I think you are speaking of a course that will be built very close to Bayside on Lake MacConeghey that Rick Phelps is going to design.  Once again, plenty of competition popping up in that region...

[Matt_Ward]

RJ:

My point was a simple one -- when people make the claim that in ten rounds Wild Horse is ahead of Bayside by a 8-2 margin I'm baffled by that!

Bayside needs to play much faster in terms of turf conditions -- although the greens were fine when I was there. Yes, there is a shortage of length as I previously mentioned and frankly, I think the short par-3 aspect is a bit overplayed there with one too many.

On the flip side the demand on the back nine is beyond that for any of the nines at Wild Horse. You need to play a greater range of shots with positioning being an optimum concern. Think how demanding the short uphill par-4 16th is at Bayside. I took driver and finished in the front bunker on the fly but the ball wedged too close to the front face of the bunker and I needed play out sideways! Ditto the qualities of the par-3 17th and the closing hole is quite good too.

Bayside has its down moments but the gap with Wild Horse isn't that as wide as many are wont to say here IMHO.

[A_Clay_Man]

I'm baffled by that!

Matt- Since I can't talk about Bayside, other than from yours and others descriptions. What's so baffling? It sounds as though the backnine is pretty dictatorial, versus the openness and multi-shot options afforded in Gothenburg. Or am I missing something?

Or, Are you admiting, or precluding, an acceptance of others opinions?

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, I certainly wouldn't set my feet in cement declaring an 8 to 2 play ratio of WH over Bayside.  That would be a matter of taste and type of game one plays and enjoys.  Personally, if I lived in North Platte, I'd go east to Gothenburg about that ratio of 8 times to Ogallala's 2.  But, there is no way I'd skip regular rounds at Bayside if I had it near enough to enjoy regularly.  I would probably walk Bayside as often as I could as well, and I wouldn't want to walk it much more than 2 times to every 8 I'd walk WH.  But, I do get a big kick out of a few holes at Bayside even more so than WH.  3-4-5-6 and 16-17-18 are great stretches of hole, IMHO.  And, for 19th hole, Bayside has one heck of a clubhouse and setting, at least to my liking.

Off hand, I'm going to guess that to keep Bayside to the same maintenance standard as WH, it would be damn near 40% more cost.  That may not mean much to us who want to rate the courses straight up, but it translates to a facility that in that market can't be as consistent in course conditioning, meaning how many times you return to play.  

[Matt_Ward]

RJ:

You and I are in complete agreement -- the 19th hole at Bayside offers a real enjoyable experience after a round there!

Adam:

I never have a problem listening to someone's opinions but I would trust they are informed ones.

Adam -- you need to play Bayside in order to fully comprehend why I'm baffled. I read Ron Whitten's review about Bayside prior to playing there and he was more upset with the walk on the back nine than on carefully explaining (as he generally does) the shortcomings of a course. Seems Ron's pull cart fell apart in walking down and through the canyons.

The folks who said Wild Horse rates eight rounds for every two at Bayside have also failed to articulate clear and convincing reasons why Bayside is thaaaaaaat less in terms of quality. The same people designed the courses in question. I pointed out several aspects that Bayside could deal with -- the slowness of the turf and the repetitive nature of the short par-3's, to name just two. Wild Horse also has a few shortcomings as well -- some of the short par-4's you play there are filler holes and lacking in real detail or strategic virtue (the 15th being a glorious exception though!!!).

Adam -- the back nine at Bayside is not dictatorial -- it just doesn't suffer fools who think that any shot that is played needs to be treated with respect. You have plenty of room to play shots though. If you play to the proper side of the hole and execute correctly the back nine at Bayside is more than willing and able to reward the player. You need to play it in order to better understand my position -- one last thing -- I listen to others opinions -- but I, just like they do, reserve the right to disagree provided some sort of rationale is offered.

Hope this helps clear things up for you.

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, I have to play the homer and ask which holes you remember at WH that might be called "filler" holes, possibly lacking real playing options or challenge VS occupying space?    I would characterise 13 and the space from the second shot at 15 and 10 as a manner of filler holes or bridges to cross ravines that were problematic on the routing at Bayside.