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Brian Mariotti

Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« on: August 19, 2004, 04:33:24 PM »
This represents my first "new topic" post so please be gentle as my knowledge is adequate at best. With that said, I ask, is there such a thing as a great mountain course. I reside in the Pacific Northwest and have played many "mountain courses", all of which have many holes carved from the side of a mountain and have been dissapointed by all.

Some of the mountain courses I have played include:
Bear Mountain Golf (Victoria, B.C.) designed by Jack Nicklaus
Raven Golf Club at South Mountain (Phoenix) designed by D.Graham & G.Panks
Chateu Whistler (Vancouver B.C.) designed by Robert Trent Jones
Westwood Plateau(Vancouver B.C.) designed by Michael Hurdzan

These course all featured often unforgiving fairways(left is mountain, right is the side of a cliff due to the terracing), long par fours where driver was taken out of your hand due to short fairways ending in ravines, ridiculous elevation changes and so on.

Is it possible, due to the severity of designing a golf course on the side of a mountain, to truly build a great course? Has anyone played a great mountain course. I can tell you that all the above course were designed at great expense but fail to deliver a great golf experience in my opinion.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2004, 04:56:28 PM »
Brian- An excellent begining.

The elements that go into answering you are many, and as always, the potential default of, to each their own, is omnipresent.
One factor that the mountain type golf you decribe doesn't have, is walkability. Most would agree (and argue) that there are but a few of those unwalkable courses, that are great. Kapalua Plantation course being one of them. Rushing through life on an EZ-GO is only important if volume is your thing. Greatness should cause the appreciator to savor every step. Otherwise, intangible elements are substituted for the wow factors, and we have a whole new category of golf.

There are a few great "mountain" courses that don't have the severe elevation changes, within the course, but are inthe mountains. Jasper Park and Banff Springs are two greats that utilize the visual, in a less interactive format. ;)

Black Mesa is great compromise to this subject. Built on the dramatic sections of the site, it remains a walkable course with all the elements of mountainesqe golf and great use of the elevation changes.



peter_p

Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2004, 04:56:29 PM »
I haven't played one yet. Four candidates interviewed last month, in order of appreciation were  1. Stewart Creek
(Canmore AB) 2. Greywolf (Panorama BC) 3. Trickle Creek
(Kimberly BC) 5. Silvertip (Canmore AB). Stewart Creek and Silvertip are sorta across the valley from each other, thus on different terrains, but both hilly enough. Stewart Creek's architect was able to design horizontally, maybe because his
clubhouse area was at the base of the mountain and he didn't have home and condo sites interruptus. Silvertip is desiged more vertically or diagonally, because of clubhouse location
on a perched plateau and many homesites and condos.
 

Brian Mariotti

Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2004, 05:03:03 PM »
Thanks Adam for the kind words- I get kinda nervous posting with only a few pebbles of knowledge in my palm.

I have played a few very good courses in the mountains that did not have elevations changes. Big Sky Golf Club in Whistler B.C. has the mountains as a breath taking back drop, but has very little elevation change. I just wonder if it is possible to overcome such terrain obstacles and severe elevation chanes and actually built a great course.

Brian_Gracely

Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2004, 05:09:27 PM »
"Fail to deliver a great golf experience?"

Well, I guess that depends on what you expect out of your golf while in the mountains.  Obviously courses like Wade Hampton GC, Grandfather GC, etc. are considering to be great courses in the mountain.  

But I think you need to change your thinking somewhat when playing in the mountains.  You have to know that you're not going to play Merion or Medinah or some course that is like those greats.  Mountain golf is as much about being amongst nature and scenic views as it is about bunker placement and angles.  Is there anything more fun than being able to hit a 350yd drive on a long downhill hole in the mountains and watching it fly against the backdrop of fall follage or snow-capped mountains?  Or finally figuring out on the 15th hole that while the green appears to break left to right that the slope of the mountain is right to left and you have to play the mountain vs. the green?  


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2004, 05:10:35 PM »
My extremely limited experience says no, but you might want to read the profile on Lookout Mountain.

P.S. Don't ever feel too intimidated to post - I knew nothing when I started 5 years ago, and still know little compared to many on this site. But everyone has always made me feel welcome, even when they disagreed with my opinion.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2004, 05:20:36 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael Dugger

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Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2004, 05:11:35 PM »
It certainly seems that someone ought to mention Banff and Jasper Park.

I'd venture to say they are the premier mountain courses.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Brian_Gracely

Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2004, 05:12:49 PM »
Just a few I've played that are very good and quite enjoyable:

Water's Edge at Smith Mountain Lake
Springdale in Asheville, NC
Holes 19-27 at Governor's Club in Chapel Hill, NC

peter_p

Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2004, 05:28:48 PM »
Banff Springs and Jasper Park are very good courses set in the mountains, but I don't think they fit into this category. With the exception of one hole and one tee shot, Banff is flat. Jasper Park is hilly, not mountainous.
In keeping with Adam's thoughts on Kapalua Plantation, which I though of as fitting the critereon but haven't played, add the late Castle Harbor in Bermuda.

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2004, 06:10:13 PM »
Brian,
I would disagree with Peter and say that Banff and Jasper are Mountain golf, they just did not choose to build on the sides of the mountain - a la Silvertip...

However, if the flat land deters, Cascades plays over some mountanious land and makes great use of the elevation. It is routinely called the best mountain course in the world - mainly by Americans who haven't been to Banff and Jasper... :)

P.S. I would say that is an excellent first post.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2004, 06:10:59 PM by Ben_Dewar »

Daryn_Soldan

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Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2004, 06:22:53 PM »
The Broadmoor comes to mind when you talk quality golf in the mountains.  While the East and West courses have their share of apparently flattish holes, there really are no shots (full swings or putts) that are not influenced by the slope of the mountains.  Often times, it is only when a person looks at the Broadmoor from downtown Colorado Springs that they realize that whole complex literally sits on the side of the mountain.

The Mountain Course (South) is definitely mountain golf, but I am not sure it meets the quality standard.  It is currently closed for an overhaul by Nicklaus Design and judging by the look of things earlier this summer, there is a significant amount of work taking place.


Mark Brown

Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2004, 06:23:43 PM »
I think Cascades at The Homestead is one of the best and Castle Pines, site of The International looks interesting and beautiful, but I haven't played it. I haven't played Forest Highlands in AZ by Weiskopf & Morrish, but all I hear are great things. I believe it has 6 par-threes, so creativity with the use of the site may be the key -- thinking outside the box is usually a good start to do anything great.

Mike_Golden

Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2004, 06:54:36 PM »
In my experience the only mountain course I can remember that was really enjoyable was the Asheville Country Club, a Ross design.  Of course, there are many courses with enormous elevation changes (like Olympic Lake or Pasatiempo) that are thoroughly enjoyable but probably don't really qualify in this category.

Smokey_Pot_Bunker

Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2004, 09:06:16 PM »
Forest Highlands the Valley course is an amazing course with holes 4,6,8,10,12 and 14 being the par 3's Weiskopf and Moorish used the site to near perfection and the tee shot from number 9 is on of the best I've ever seen.

I'd Also throw in Desert Highlands, The Raven In Tucson.

I gotta believe that Apache Stronghold would qualify as well.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2004, 09:48:28 PM »
I would add The Summit in Vail and Black Rock in Coeur d Alene, Idaho to your list.

I will be playing thru out Colorado and New Mexico for the balance of the month, so email me in Sept and I'll tell you what others are in that class.

I agree with you on Bear Mountain, but I liked Chateau Whistler, but not Nicklasu North or Big Sky.

The Rim is also an excellent mountain/desert course.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2004, 02:11:51 AM »
Mountain courses are a very good place to learn to play the game. I grew up playing Stackstown GC, Padraig Harrington's home course.

Because of the slope, it dries out very quickly and you have links like conditions. You have to learn how to hit the ball from all types of lies - sidehill, uphill, downhill... Yo also have to learn how to land the ball in one place in order to end up somewhere else.

Killer on the legs, though.

John Marr(inan)

ForkaB

Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2004, 04:10:05 AM »
I'm astounded that nobody has mentioned Painswick yet! :o

Of course, it does help to have a Bronze Age fortress at the top of the mountain within which to route some of your most interesting holes...........

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2004, 08:47:06 AM »
Redanman,

   Maroon Creek is hardly a mountain course. It is a hilly one for at least 11 holes, but rarely (other than two of the par 3's) moves in any mountainous ways. In fact, most of the hols have less elevation than places like Bel-Air or The Bridge.
Nearby, the golf club at Breckenridge has similar terrain and while it oftens lacks good conditioning, is a better and more original layout.

   I would submit that a place like Mennagio e Cadenabbia, outside Lake Como in Italy is a considerable, and big fun, mountain course. It's certainly not great, but it is fun and very good.
   Some examples, previously not mentioned here, of near great or at least very solid "mountain area" courses include:

  Blackrock
  The new Snowmass Club    
  The Sanctuary                       (all strong Engh designs)

   Ekwanok
   
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2004, 09:15:10 AM »
Sugarloaf in Maine is one of the best (and most difficult) courses in New England. It's at #66 in the top 100 you can play and is a true mountain course. Very rugged terrain with great views and a few huge elevation changes.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2004, 09:33:15 AM »
What is a mountain course?

I can think of relatively flat courses that happen to be built on mountains. Wade Hampton, Highlands CC (Ross), Lookout Mountain, Roaring Gap, Linville, come to mind. Other than beautiful montains that surround these courses, there's nothing "montainous" about any holes on them.

And then there are "mountainous" courses, the kind that have frequent, severe elevation changes. You can find these in mountain locations, of course. But you also find them on the Piedmont and on coastal plains.

Maybe the better question is are there any "great" courses with lots of severe/mountain-like elevation changes? Without regard as to where they happen to be located.

I don't think there are any great courses with lots of severe/montain-like elevation changes.

Bob

Scott_Park

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2004, 09:46:54 AM »
Golf in the mountains can be as much fun as golf anywhere.  Having said that, the terrain and altitude are two problems that are difficult to overcome.

Ideally, a mountain course would be on relatively flat land (< 200 ft of elevation change on site) and surrounded by spectacular mountains.  There is not a lot of this type of land that could accommodate a golf course; additionally, a course needs to compete with other land uses.

Extreme land can lend itself to some incredibly fun shots, but usually the overall qulaity of the course suffers.

The altitude question is one that I think gets frequently talked about, but unless someone has a lot of experience golfing at altitude (> 6000 ft), it is hard to fully appreciate.

Disclaimer- although I live in NC, I grew up out west and wouldn't really call the Apps mountians.  Nevertheless, Wade Hampton and the Homestead are wonderful courses, but being only at three to four thousand feet, the effects of altitude are not that great.

Obviously the ball goes farther, but that also depends on the trajectory of the shot.  A high ball flight will benefit more from thinner than lower ball flight, even if those shots travel the same distance at sea level.

Furthermore, as Bill points out, the ball does not curve as much, which by itself detracts from the game.

In some ways, golf at altitude suffers from the same negative effects that technology has placed on the modern game.  Twenty years ago, it was more of a finesse game where one had to control trajectory and shape.  Today, it is blast it high and the ball goes straight- very similar to the nature of the game in the mountains.

SP


CHC1948

Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2004, 10:31:55 AM »
Grandfather is a valley course surrounded by mountains....Linville Ridge (across the street) is a mountain course.  Grandfather does offer some beautiful views, however, it is one of the better courses I've ever played, the shot value and overall design is nothing short of excellent.  At least Mr. Roberts believed that when he joined...

CHC

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2004, 10:35:05 AM »
Bill,

    I don't know what the heck makes a "mountain course" but I do hear that Morgan Hill is a wonderful hike.

For Bily Goat Golf, I strongly recommend Bridgehampton's Bridge Club. It is as fine a manicured Goat track as they come. Rees should be proud of his well "milked" layout. :o
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2004, 12:18:33 PM »
the Plantation at Kapalua is the best mountain course I've played.

Andy Hodson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does a great "mountain" course actually exist??
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2004, 01:42:43 PM »
John Conley

Agree with you. The Plantation course is truly an awesome course, in spite of and because of,  it is on the side of a mountain.

Grandfather is a great course in the mountains, and CHC is correct...it is a valley course. Also, correct is that Linville Ridge (literally across the street) is a true mountain course, and suffers in comparison with Grandfather for exactly that reason.