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Paul Richards

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Re:Whistling Straits vs. Kingsbarn
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2004, 12:28:55 PM »
Tom mentions:

> in Wisconsin, it passes for a "links" because few people here really know what a links is.  It's a fine golf course for which I have a lot of respect, but it is not a links.


The Scots have a very precise definition of what a 'links' is.  And no matter how great a course Whistling Straits is (and it is a GREAT course), it does not fit the definition of a 'links.'
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Whistling Straits vs. Kingsbarn
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2004, 12:30:48 PM »
Good comments on WS

My thoughts:

Artificial – Many comments relate to the artificial look of the golf course.

The bunkers are too similar in style and size throughout the golf course to look natural, especially from the blimp.  They look much better at ground level, more varied in size and perspective.   They will only get better and more diverse over time.

The hard edges and related drainage (drainage basins in the approaches) are Pete’s influences from Raynor.  Definitely artificial, but it is Mr. Dye’s way of creating angles and shot values.  The hard edges are an importance part of his heritage on modern golf architecture.  This can be argued as juxtaposition or man’s impact (defining a game on the ground) on the land, etc.

Playability – This golf course responds to the new lengths of the golf ball by adding length.  A tournament mentality, it requires overall shot values, with long irons, by the best players in the world vs. “protecting par at the green” which is so appropriate for the majority of member golf courses built today.  It is also much more penal than your member golf course because of its tournament birthright. At the same time it is very playable by the member player from the correct set of tees.

Example: Justin Leonard hitting his right to left run-up 3 iron onto #15 green on Sunday.

The green approaches were soft in the beginning of the week and firmed up over the weekend.  I am sure the approaches will not be soft in the future.




Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Whistling Straits vs. Kingsbarn
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2004, 01:06:58 PM »
Lloyd,
I have played WS a number of times at different times of year and it is has never been soft. Therefore, the entrances into the green were completely in play.

Also, there caddies are a far sight better than Bandon's. They use a caddie program and most of them caddie at big southern clubs in the winter.

Tim,
I agree wholeheartly about the playability, I was surprised each round by people who could get around easily if steered in the proper direction. Again, the low sides of some holes and generally all the bunkering can be tough, but if you made the conservative play all day - the golfer would be fine.

What approach was taken towards bunker construction?

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Whistling Straits vs. Kingsbarn
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2004, 03:46:51 PM »
...yet when someone with a trained eye goes to Scotland to play it, it must be compared side-by-side with Muirfield and Dornoch and St. Andrews and it cannot pull off the illusion completely.  I think they did a great job of creating natural-looking contours, and yet there is something a bit American about the way those contours are used, particularly in the greens complexes.

I agree that the green contours at Kingsbarns do not necessarily replicate what you would find at the other courses mentioned above, but I must ask... is that necessarily a bad thing? Can't Kingsbarns have its own identity? Isn't it OK to offer a variation on a theme?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Whistling Straits vs. Kingsbarn
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2004, 10:16:51 PM »
I'm going to jump to the defense of Kingsbarns here -- largely cause I think one of the knocks on it that my good friend Ben points out is that the fields surrounding the course give away the artificiality of it.
Mark Parsinen, the man largely responsible for the creation of the course, points out that you'd never notice the fields off the tee, and if you're anywhere near the fairway, you won't see them then, either.
I played Kingsbarns the first time and completely missed the fields that are on the west side of the opening nine. Kyle Phillips and Parsinen did such a good job that a golfer's attention is never on the course's surroundings, unless it is the ocean. I think the grading and routing really keeps a golfer's focus on the hole and away from the surrounding area (except, perhaps, for the 12th, where you can see Crail in the distance.)
Sure, Kingsbarns doesn't look exactly like Crail, or St. Andrews, or Cruden Bay. But it is pretty damned close. Any knock against the course comes largely from critics who find some of its nuances (ie. -- the large greens) overdone. However, I wonder if this course was 90 years old, would we think of these facets in another way?
To me, Whistling Straits looks excellent, but quite obviously constructed. I don't think Kingsbarns does. That is not a knock on the quality of golf experience at either place.
My only criticism of Kingbarns is the routing makes it a long walk -- 4.5 hour rounds aren't uncommon, even if you're playing at a good clip. However, I don't recall Cruden Bay being a breeze to walk either.
As for the comment that people would simply return to St. Andrews over and over and pass on Kingsbarns.... well, then they really don't know what they are missing, now do they?

Robert
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Whistling Straits vs. Kingsbarn
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2004, 10:50:37 PM »
Robert:  DITTO
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Whistling Straits vs. Kingsbarn
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2004, 12:22:48 AM »
Eckstein -- No, I haven't played WS-- just saw it on TV. My point was more about Kingsbarns -- though I must admit that what I saw at the PGA still really made me want to see what Pete did firsthand.

R
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

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