[Mark Brown]

Tom Doak:

Have you ever played the Quarry Holes at Black Diamond. When it comes to stunning natural beauty (they moved very little dirt building these holes and only added bunkers and the course was built for $5 million) and shots that test your skill and mettle these holes are near the top. When you first step onto the 13th and 15th tees and you look down the hole it is stunning, and holes are layed naturally around and in the quarries. In addition, every shot you hit on these 5 holes is both exciting and fun -- and a thrill when you hit a really good one. Is there something wrong with this?

I agree that Amen Corner plus #10 are hard to beat. The ocean is beautiful at Pebble but without wind 7 is not great, the tee shot at 8 is awkward and 9 and 10 are very good holes but not great. The approach to 8 is definitely great.

I love the great classics but not all the classics are great. As traditionalists we appreciate them for what they are -- natural, well designed and fun to play. Once in awhile, however, we should be open-minded enough to judge modern courses without looking through the tinted glasses of the old classics.

Also, my post was supposed to include stretches of hole with both great design and beauty.

[Mark Brown]

Redanman

You are the type of traditionalist or purist who makes other golfers and architects dismiss our viewpoints because you can't be objective and you're mad at the modern world.

I have played two-thirds of the top 100 in the U.S. and world along with many others incl. the links of the British Isles and have played courses by all the architects you listed. So don't pump up your ego too much.

Also the Quarry holes have no homes and the rest of the course has wide corridors. Also it was built for $4 to $5 million. I imagine others won't praise this course or other modern courses, because they don't want to be scorned by all the "experts" in this group who are so high and mighty.

I respect Tom Doak but he's not the god of design, nor are you, nore am I. There have probably been places where Doak could have moved a little dirt to make a course better -- as long as it looks natural.

It's easy to copy holes built 80 years ago. How about some origninal design... and a name -- redanman

[A_Clay_Man]

Mark Brown- 5 million? That's very impressive. Did you know Don Maidlow (sp?) Also, Could you elaborate on this? ;

Black Diamond Ranch
A class action lawsuit has been filed against Black Diamond Ranch country club and golf courses on behalf of more than 500 club members. The suit claims that the plaintiffs were "deceived and tricked" by misleading advertising into believing that they were purchasing equity memberships which would eventually give them a stake in the club. The suit alleges that because of the way the memberships were structured, the company owns more equity memberships than there are lots available to sell.

Does this hole remind anybody of another TF hole?

[wsmorrison]

"3 RG+2

No need to go any further than here to expose your homerism, Wayne."

No need to go any further to expose your lack of understanding.  It is difficult for us to analyze two courses, one of which we've played hundreds of times and the other a mere fraction of that.  I just don't believe your posts demonstrate an ability to have a sophisticated discussion but rather a superficial one.  You are strongly opinionated and I do respect your passion.  Do you see a lot of courses?  Yes, of course.  Does this necessarily matter?  Of course not.

If you care to discuss the first 3 holes at Lehigh vs. the first 3 at Rolling Green, please do and I will gladly have a meaningful chat.  There are various levels of comparison to make, perhaps we need to address the merits from various perspectives.  Why don't you come to RGGC on tuesday, we'll have breakfast or lunch and discuss.  If your back is well we can play.  I may be a homer, but I am also right as you will see    

[Tom_Doak]

Mark,

I have indeed played Black Diamond Ranch, though only once.  In an earlier version of The Confidential Guide, I rated those five holes 7-8-8-7-5 on the Doak scale, which is no slouch; the only one of the five I really didn't like was the 17th, where it seemed too easy to get a rebound off the quarry wall abve the green.  They're a strong stretch of holes, as I said the first time.

However, I would rate the stretch of holes at Pebble Beach higher than that, and I hardly think I am alone there, "God of design" or not.

 

[TEPaul]

"Redanman
You are the type of traditionalist or purist who makes other golfers and architects dismiss our viewpoints because you can't be objective and you're mad at the modern world."

Mark Brown:

It's very rare on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com that practically everyone will agree with any statement but that one of yours above comes about as close as possible!!  

[Mark Brown]

Tom (you can be god if you want -- you paid your dues)

I'm with you on Pebble, and our thinking is very close on design. I just think there are some modern courses worth talking about, and I hope this group feels free to say something positive about them once in awhile.

My perspective is a little different because alot of my work is in golf course and community development. I see a lot of new courses. Just because alot of money is spent on a course doesn't automatically make it bad. Some of the sites Fazio gets have no natural attributes, and some of the big names demonstrate knowledge of strategic design, and some of them don't.

(Odd note: I've hit that wall left of 15 green about 5 times and I've never found the ball - go figure?)

Look forward to seeing you and your new designs in the coming year. It might be time for another book soon.
 

[Mark Brown]

Redanman,

I still love ya and hope we can play together sometime. I can get pretty critical myself. Titleist dropped some ads once at Links because of a commentary I wrote, and I got Bob Cupp pretty pissed off once.

I'm in Hilton Head - drop in. The oldest course is 35 years old now (Harbour Town) and is in much better shape than ever. And I know you would like Chechessee Creek (Crenshaw & Coore).

All the Best,
Mark

P.S. I love Redan holes too -- Raynor's Mountain Lake (Orlando) has a good one. Silva did a good restoration ther. Fun course.

[A_Clay_Man]

Mark- I suppose this explains alot.

http://www.markbrownandassociates.com/clients.html

Thanx!

[Mark Brown]

Adam,

I didn't know Don.
The lawsuit was filed by a relatively small group of renegade members. Actually, there are only 750 memberships (for 45 holes) and 795 homesites. I believe the dispute has to do with when they can sell their memberships at full price, but it's not a significant  matter to 95% of the members. Stan Olsen, the developer, is an honest man.

[A_Clay_Man]

Mark- I'd always heard that it was the most difficult tee time to get in Florida. And that was because of the number of members. 750, huh? Once again, I had heard there was closer to 1200. But my info is old. Thanx for the update.

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