whistling straits, pete dye, future majors at whistling straits

[peter_mcknight]

Well, I can't seem to figure out the course preparations for Whistling Straits for this past weekend's USPGA Championship.  It seemed quite weird to range from a standard PGA Tour Thursday set up to an average US Open type set up for Sunday's final round.  All of this for a major championship in four days.  I suppose the complete opposite could be said for this year's US Masters--started tough, then dramatically moderated for the final round.  In the final analysis, TEN holes played under par for the week!

There are still 2 holes on Whistling Straits I still don't understand--numbers 5 and 18.  If anyone knows anything about the site prior to Dye and Kohler commencing construction on the course, I would like to know about the existence of those 2 "ponds" that create the extreme look to the 5th hole.  I still can't believe that Justin Leonard hit a 353 yard drive on the 5th on Sunday.  I would think that, if a US Open were to be held there, that hole would have to be modified because the design is meant to be quite rough on the mid handicapper but much less so for the top touring professional (and thus loses some of its appeal).  I suppose much the same could be said for Jack Nicklaus courses as well.  If the top guys were hitting it that far (albeit somewhat downwind), why must it play as a par 5?  Why not move up the tees to somewhere between the 506 and 520 markers and call it a par 4?  I believe this is a most bizarre routing and design, one that doesn't fit into the rest of the course.

Hole 18 seems somewhat confused as well.  Should the green's size be at least 5 times the size of Pebble Beach's 18th?  Should a player be required to pitch over part of the green if he is on the green (wouldn't a putt with the green's contours be more difficult?  Yes, I like the boomerang green at Crystal Downs, for the record).  If downwind, it takes the driver out of the top player's hand--can't run it through the fairway.  I basically abhor abrupt fairways running out to some defined point, like a wash (Straits) or ESA (Spanish Bay) where it is at a point where one really can't hit a driver on such a long par 4.  How about eliminating the green on the extreme right and pushing the green complex to the left and back, thus losing about 1/3 or so of the green--would save on course maintenance costs and would make for a better hole.

Furthermore, what is with Pete Dye courses in general?  The following represents a general sampling of his courses that supports a contention that he builds courses with long front nines and shorter back nines--I believe this should be the other way around.

Course (yards front is longer than the back)
River 280
Oak Tree 200 (150 if 18 and 9 are flipped)
Straits original PGA set up 180
Crooked Stick 150
TPC 100 (typical Dye)
Golf Club 100
Honors 100
Meadows 100
Harbour Town 25
Des Moines 0
La Quinta Mountain 0
PGA West -25
Irish -100
Ocean -110
Kampen -160
Pete Dye -250 (real outlier in my analysis)

Why doesn't Pete design strong back nine courses like a Tilllinghast or Ross?  Why must Pete always place the short par 3 on the back, the short par 4 on the back, the shortest par 5 on the back (in general) and a right to left par 4 to close out the round?  I don't think it was any surprise that both DiMarco and Singh made it to the playoff considering they started on the 10th on Thursday--one of the reasons why I hate the 2-tee starting system.  Bethpage is another supporting point for that point of view--much easier to start on 1 Thursday rather than 10 Thursday--one's mind set will be far different on 1 on both Bethpage and Straits than if starting on 10 (Straits 10, one should lick one's chops; Bethpage 10, strap on the seat belt).  It would have made interesting television if they used the alternate back tee on hole 17 on Sunday--would have played 266!

Frankly, I see the USPGA quickly signing up Kohler for another USPGA, perhaps 2012 with a Ryder Cup in 2020.  They will go back to Valhalla by 2015.  If that happens it rules out a US Open until around 2017.  I can't even imagine how the USGA will set the Straits up for the seniors in 2007--could it play to the 7202 it did for the PGA CPC tournament at a par 72?  For the US Open, I'm sure 16 would play as a par 4--I still would like to see number 5 reconstructed to become a par 4.  Perhaps no. 5 is a lost hole from the original Hazeltine layout.

I say par for the week was 280.  What did the rest of you think of the scratchy nature of the rough lines, quality of the rough, etc.?

[Matt Kardash]

for more on the 5th hole...find WS in the list
http://golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/whistlingstraits.html

I still trully believe that people nitpick at Dye's work more than ANY other architect. With Dye's work people seem to only talk abot the stuff they don't like. Basically every thread on WS is mentioning what they don't like about it. From the sound of most people you'd swear it was a piece of shit course.

[Tim_Weiman]

Peter,

The fifth hole does seem out of character, but by all accounts Dye faced permitting restrictions that left him little choice.

As for #18, personally I don't mind the tee shot at all, either for professionals or mere mortals. For the pros, I get so bored watching them hit 300 plus yard drives followed by short irons, that WS's 18th is kind of refreshing: the second shot is played with enough club that the outcome seems less certain. The three shots hit in the playoff were well varied, not your typical, boring PGA tour stuff.

Then, too, talk of the fairway running out is a bit exaggerated, in my view. The man you can place the ball down the left is rewarded with a much shorter approach.

[Willie_Dow]

Not ever planning to play there, but wishing to be there - but what great bunkers !

The surrounds were so natural it looked like M--- had been in someone's mind !

Thanks for whom ever you are ?