"Tin Cup" Leonard?

[Buck Wolter]

Here's the link to the thread from last year's PGA -- seems somewhat prescient.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=5854

[George Pazin]

I'm always happy when I get to agree with Patrick. It's easy to second guess club selection afterward, but I tend to think Justin knows his game better than the rest of us.

Sometimes shots just don't come off as planned. Shivas' explanation sounds plausible, but I can't imagine Justin hasn't played enough golf elsewhere to know how changing conditions affect his length.

[A.G._Crockett]

I've read the Hogan story about omitting a club as well (9 iron, I think); of course I have no way of knowing the truth of it, but it has been widely reported about him.

Athletes in all sports, even the highest levels, make mental mistakes when under tremendous pressure.  Those mistakes may or may not be fatal, but they do happen.  Pitchers throw the wrong pitch, shooters take the wrong shot, backs hit the wrong hole.  It happens.  

In golf, players get rules wrong, add scorecards incorrectly, and so forth.  Why is it so impossible to believe that Leonard, IN THAT SITUATION, took too aggressive a line and hit too little club?  Or, perhaps he excessively factored in adrenaline, having blown a fairway wood all the way through a green and into a hazard just a few holes earlier.  I don't know.  I don't know if Leonard made a mistake, or just didn't execute, or if there was a gust of wind, or whatever.  Leonard might still hit the 5 iron if he had it to do over again.  But I DO know that the idea that mental mistakes don't happen at the highest level of sport is contrary to fact.

[George Pazin]

The Hogan story was recounted by Ben himself in an interview with GD. Lore has it that he omitted the 7 iron "because there are no 7 iron shots at Merion." He said he did drop the 7 for that tournament, but only because he wanted to include the 1 iron for driving purposes. He said that if he had any 7 iron shots, he would simply choke down on the 6. Seeing as how there are numerous stories of him hitting greens with every club in his bag, I guess it wouldn't be that much of an adjustment.

AG -

Maybe it's a matter of semantics. If he still would hit the 5 iron now, is it a mental mistake? A misjudgement? Maybe the mistake was physical, not mental. My only point is that he knows his game better than any of us, so I don't think it's quite as simple as "he should've hit the 4." I certainly don't think he hit the 5 for ego reasons, or sheer stubborness, as others have suggested. He thought it was the right club.

[Andy Hughes]

George (and Pat), I think you are in essence certainly correct.  But Pat said something--

If his ball hits two feet to the right, he's in perfect position.

--that makes me wonder: was he actually trying to be in 'perfect position', or just get something safely on the green and past the gunk?

[Patrick_Mucci]

AG Crockett,

How do you know that he didn't make the right decision, but mis-executed the shot, ala Norman ?

How do you know that the wind didn't increase in velocity as he struck his shot ?

He was there, and had played that hole 3-5 times earlier, and both he and his caddy knew how he was playing and striking the ball as he went through the decision making process with his caddy just prior to pulling the trigger.

What makes you think he made a bad decision, when both he and his caddy thought he made the prudent decision at that particular point in time ?

Did you also see what happened to Mickelson and DiMarco when they hit their balls a little left and long ?

Did VJ make a double bogie earlier in the round ?

Andy Hughes,

I don't know, because I didn't speak with him, but from a practical point of view, it seemed that a par would suffice to insure victory, and as such, I don't think the pin was the sole object of his shot.

George Pazin,

I don't buy the Hogan story, based on the allegation that there are no 7 iron shots at Merion.

I would buy the story that he felt that the addition of the 1-iron would improve his ability to navigate the golf course and that the 7-iron was the ideal club for him to eliminate in order to accomodate the addition of the 1-iron.

[A_Clay_Man]

Was the 18th green shaded? Could it have been softer than expected?

[Mike Hendren]

Bill McBride, et. al.,

Patrick, I assume I'm an al.

You ballbeaters are great monday morning quarterbacks.

I'm no ballbeater, if that means practicing.  I hope it doesn't mean something else, not that there's anything wrong with that.  Also, please note from the time of my post that I am a Monday AFTERNOON quarterback.

How about when Greg Norman came to the 72nd hole at the Masters and had to decide between a hard 5 or an easy 4 iron, he chose the 4 iron, layed off of it, hit it right and ended up losing the tournament.

Having played the 18th at WS, I'm guessing that if Leonard had ballooned a 4-iron like Norman's he would nonethless have had two putts for par.

Justin Leonard didn't arrive at the 72nd hole of the PGA with a one shot lead because he didn't go with his instincts, his playing feel during the course of the tournament.

No, he arrived there with a one-shot lead because of his failure to get up-and-down at 16.

So now all you second rate, second guessers are positive that if he hit the 4 iron he would have hit it with confidence, and perfectly.  YET, HE DIDN'T FEEL THAT WAY, AND HE'S A BETTER PLAYER THEN ANYONE ON THIS SITE, and the way he felt brought him to the 72nd hole with a one shot lead.

On my best day, I'm merely third rate.

If his ball hits two feet to the right, he's in perfect position.

And he probably would have defeated DiMarco in the playoff if the tour's caucasion rule was still in effect.

So, unless you've been there and played at the highest of competitive levels, don't try to tell a guy who's playing better then all of the BEST players in the world, what club to hit, and how and where to hit it.

I'll have you know I am a two-time club champion at Rolling Hills in Ripley, Tennessee.

How do you know that if he hit the 4 iron he wouldn't have pulled it, or pushed it into even more trouble ?

All I know is that he would not have been short.

Mike Hendren,

From 208 or 217 into the wind, Hogan would have had to have hit a very good three wood, when he was playing his best.

My point was that while today's players dial in the yardage, the players of Hogan's era could add/take off 5 yards by moving the ball.  But it's good to know that you clubbed Hogan.  Perhaps you can regale us with more stories.

And, I don't believe Hogan ever left any clubs out of his bag.
He wasn't that stupid or omniscient

That sure ain't a 7-iron he's posing in the famous photograph.

  .... but hopefully, you knew that.  

Cheers.

Mike

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bill, I am with you guys. I thought he under clubed serveral times including both times on 18. 17 in the playoff was 3 clubs short. There is a reaon he was not picked for the Ryder Cup for he is a good player. Tin cup may be it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm no ballbeater, if that means practicing.  I hope it doesn't mean something else, not that there's anything wrong with that.

It does mean something else, it means that your caliber of play is lacking, but, that's better than being called ball washer breath, which can also have several meanings[/color]  

Also, please note from the time of my post that I am a Monday AFTERNOON quarterback.

Another Johnny come lately[/color]

Having played the 18th at WS, I'm guessing that if Leonard had ballooned a 4-iron like Norman's he would nonethless have had two putts for par.

That's a bad guess.  Into the wind, if he balloons the 4 iron,
he doesn't come close to the green.  Norman, with little wind in his face didn't come close to the green, a ballooned, cut 4-iron into the wind at WS ends up in yenumsville, and perhaps he double bogies the hole.[/color]

No, he arrived there with a one-shot lead because of his failure to get up-and-down at 16.

That's not true or are you forgetting about his play on # 17 and all of the other previous holes that day ?[/color]

On my best day, I'm merely third rate.

Who am I to disagree ?[/color]

And he probably would have defeated DiMarco in the playoff if the tour's caucasion rule was still in effect.

An extreme exageration on your part[/color]

I'll have you know I am a two-time club champion at Rolling Hills in Ripley, Tennessee.

A, B or C flight ?[/color]

All I know is that he would not have been short.
How do you know that, he could have hit it heavy thinking he had too much club, or hit it three quarters thinking he had too much club, or, just put a bad swing on it, and/or just mis-hit the shot.[/color]


My point was that while today's players dial in the yardage, the players of Hogan's era could add/take off 5 yards by moving the ball.  But it's good to know that you clubbed Hogan.  Perhaps you can regale us with more stories.
I've actually seen Hogan play, have you ?
I've also seen today's players play, and these guys today can add/take off 5 yards as good if not better then any other generation of players, including Hogan.[/color]

That sure ain't a 7-iron he's posing in the famous photograph.

No, but, I'll bet that he had the full compliment of clubs in his bag, and I'll give you great odds on that one.[/color]

  .... but hopefully, you knew that.

I did[/color]

Cheers.

Mike

[A.G._Crockett]

"How do you know that he didn't make the right decision, but mis-executed the shot, ala Norman ?

How do you know that the wind didn't increase in velocity as he struck his shot ?

He was there, and had played that hole 3-5 times earlier, and both he and his caddy knew how he was playing and striking the ball as he went through the decision making process with his caddy just prior to pulling the trigger.

What makes you think he made a bad decision, when both he and his caddy thought he made the prudent decision at that particular point in time ?"

Patrick,
My point exactly, and thank you for making it so eloquently!  I don't know ANY of those things, in just exactly the same way that you don't know that it WASN'T a mental mistake, so we agree.

Right now, today, when Leonard thinks about that shot to 18 in regulation, he is either thinking "I wish I'd hit the 4 iron" or "The 5 was the right club and I'd hit it again."  Which would be more likely?  I don't know that either, but I have a guess!  Besides, if he did mishit the 5 slightly, or the wind did come up, and he didn't allow for those two possibilities in that situation, might that not be considered to be a miscalculation?

Besides, I never said that Leonard made a mistake.  I just agreed with a previous post that the shot that was most open to question was the first 5 iron.  The second one in the playoff was the only possible play.  Hell, I didn't accuse him of needing Levitra or something like that!  I like the guy and might well have picked him for the Ryder Cup if my name was Hal Sutton...

[Andy Hughes]

it seemed that a par would suffice to insure victory, and as such, I don't think the pin was the sole object of his shot.

and

If his ball hits two feet to the right, he's in perfect position.

Agreed, in his position the pin should not have been the objective.  A par was the goal, and therefore, when he came up short of the green he was not just two feet from his target, but theoretically much more than that.  

I don't know, because I didn't speak with him

Geez Pat, thought we could count on you, though you are the first one to use 'yenumsville' on this board that I have seen
 

[Tom Walsh]

"From 208 or 217 into the wind, Hogan would have had to have hit a very good three wood, when he was playing his best."

Not with the modern ball--Probably would cut a 7 metal and then 3 jacked in the shadows. Imagine Hogan having to explain to Peter Kostis about his putting woes.

"the putter let you down again huh Mr Hogan?"

Hogan- "Do you have Stan Utley's email address?"

Tom

[A.G._Crockett]

This is from a post-round interview. For the rest, go to
http://sports.yahoo.golfserv.com/gdc/news/article.asp?id=25787


Q. You mentioned it was a 5-iron on 18. Can you just take us through your thought process, where you were aiming on that shot, and again on the approach on 18 when you saw where Vijay put his shot in the playoff on 18?

JUSTIN LEONARD: In regulation, I think I had about 204. Good line, and I just felt like it was a really good 5-iron, I could go ahead and hit it. I think I had 97 or 98 to carry everything.

Really, I was trying to hit it at the hole. If I try and play safe, hit it over to the right, I have a really hard 2-putt. It was a good club. I felt like I was swinging the club very nicely, and, you know, when I hit the shot, I thought I just ended this golf tournament. I was a little surprised and unfortunate this came up just a couple feet short. I didn't have a terrible lie, but not a good one, either, and left my chip short. I wasn't able to make the putt.

Regulation, I knew Vijay was in the center of the green. I tried to go at the hole again, and I didn't hit it quite as well. Caught it a little thin and it ended up a little right of where I wanted to."

I assume in the last paragraph, he is actually referring to the playoff.  In any event, it is clear that he was going at the pin from the beginning, and it sounds as if he hit the shot very, very well.  As to whether or not that was a great decision at the time, under those circumstances, is at least interesting to talk about.

[TEPaul]

Hey Pat, what's happened to you? Have you turned into some kind of politically correct, "nice guy" whimp? Why don't you tell Bill McBride et al what you really think of them?

[Bill_McBride]

Still smarting from that "ballbeaters" shot, but I'm considering the source!  

[TEPaul]

"Still smarting from that "ballbeaters" shot, but I'm considering the source!"

Bill:

You've got that right. Don't you worry yourself about a remark like that. You don't know Pat like I know Pat! You've got to understand Pat's from North Jersey and practically his next door neighbor is Tony Soprano for God's Sake! How would you like to go down to the end of your driveway every morning to pick up the newspaper and have to wave HI to guys like Pauly Walnuts and that psychopath Christopher?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The funny thing is, if Justin pures a 4 iron and knocks it over or left of the green these same guys would be saying,
"he should have hit the 5-iron".

With respect to the neighbors you mention, they're all nice guys in a social setting.  As adversaries, I'd avoid them, or just say "yes", or "thank you".

How are your neighbors on the main line, or in farm country ?
Are there any with vowels at the end of their names ?  

AG Crockett,

If you're familiar with the 12th at ANGC you can understand how foolish it sounds to state that golfers should be able to anticipate sudden gusts or swirls of wind.  That's impossible, and a devilish element that affects the game.

[Brian_Gracely]

He hits 5 or he hits 4.....doesn't matter.  DO NOT aim at the pin and that little landing area when the middle of the green (middle of that HUGE cross-shaped green) would let you be LONG or SHORT or RIGHT if it's hit on that line.  

I guess all those missed putts earlier in the day had drained his confidence in his putter.  I would have bet alot of cash he could have two putted from the middle of the green.....more times than getting up & down from off the green.

[Bill_McBride]

Jezzus Shivas and Brian, don't second guess, whatever you do.  Although Monday morning quarterbacking is a time honored American tradition, you might be criticized in some quarters as a "ballbeater."   Whatever that is!  

[Brian_Gracely]

Vijay Singh is a "ballbeater".  The term he was looking for is ballbuster or browbeater.  

[Andy Hughes]

I guess all those missed putts earlier in the day had drained his confidence in his putter.  I would have bet alot of cash he could have two putted from the middle of the green.....more times than getting up & down from off the green.

And the irony is, he has an article in the current Golf or Golf Digest about 'How to Make the Clutch Putt'!  Haven't read it yet...

[A.G._Crockett]

The funny thing is, if Justin pures a 4 iron and knocks it over or left of the green these same guys would be saying,
"he should have hit the 5-iron".

Would not either!

"If you're familiar with the 12th at ANGC you can understand how foolish it sounds to state that golfers should be able to anticipate sudden gusts or swirls of wind.  That's impossible, and a devilish element that affects the game."

I have heard of that green!  Damn that wind!

[Frank_Stanger]

Didn't Leonard have a strangely similar experience at Carnoustie in '99?  

Am I correct in remembering that he hit his approach on 18 short in the burn, not once, but twice - in the final round and in the playoff?

And, if I remember correctly, it caused him to say, "I feel like I lost the British Open twice in one day."

It's interesting.  Leonard could plausibly have won three or four majors but for a few bad swings... (Or good swings with bad results....  Or just rotten luck...  But certainly not because of any bad decisions  )

[Danno]

Could it be that when the people in the stands were doing the "wave" the wind currents could have been changed in some manner?

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