3rd Best Golf State: Lets Vote!

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I must at least put Minnesota in the running:

Interlachen, Minikadha, Somerset, GoldenValley, Woodhill, White Bear lake, Northlands, Hazeltine and a number of new ones in the Minneapolis are and on the iron range

[johnk]

This always happens - people forget about
what I think is THE BEST STATE for golf: Victoria, of course!

RM, KH, Metro, The National, Victoria, Woodlands, Yarra Yarra, Peninsula, Portsea....

It makes me weep with joy just to think of them

now maybe CA or NY is better, but for the kind of courses
I like, I don't think so....  at worst, Victoria is 3rd...

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Doug,
Guilty, but unashamed  See you in Flynn country soon.
Best,
Wayne

Hey, after my day at RG, I am an unabashed Flynn fan as well--even if he may have been a Red Sox fan!

[wsmorrison]

Doug,
I'm not so sure Flynn would have converted from a Red Sox fan to a Phillies fan.  The Phils were sorry excuses for a baseball team for so many years....hmm not much has changed.  But maybe Flynn became an Athletics fan...they had some great teams while he lived in Philly.  I do know Flynn became a diehard Eagles fan; he was a part owner of the team along with Bert Bell who screwed him out of his shares.

[Craig Disher]

Shouldn't there be some weighting in this for the size of the state? If PA and NJ are fairly close in quality, shouldn't NJ get the nod? And, if we consider quality gcs per square mile, what about Washington DC? I know it's not a state but it's surrounded by states and has its own government, income tax, police, and license plates.

DC has 4 courses with great histories - Rock Creek (Flynn), East Potomac Park (36 holes from Robert White and possibly Walter Travis as well as one of the country's first miniature golf courses), Langston (Wm Gordon). And for those worrying about access - they are all public and inexpensive with no extra charges for non-residents. There is a fifth course at Ft. McNair - just across from East Potomac Park - but since its on a military reservation within DC, it doesn't count. I'm not sure about access either. If any of you would like to get on, send me an IM and I'll see what I can do.

[JSlonis]

NJ by a nose over PA.

I think there is a much better choice for very good public access courses in NJ compared to PA as well.  Over the last 10 years the quality of public golf courses in NJ has greatly improved.

[michael j fay]

If we are going to chew on most great courses per square mile look absolutely no further than Rhode Island. Wannamoisett, Newport, RICC, Misquamicut, and the list goes on. Both New Jersey and Pennsylvania could absorb Rhode Island with no appreciable bulge.

[Gerry B]

KFry: i was just trying to stir it up to make things interesting-i agree open courses do not necessarily make for a great state.

Example #1 -have not played Crystal Downs yet -I have heard that it may be the best in Michigan  

Example #2 Baltusrol has hosted 6 or 7 Opens and it definitely is not the best in nj -PV is #1 and there are others that I rate higher that have been listed already

Example 3  - great courses that have never hosted Opens for a variety of reasons - some of which are  or  not in the states that are being debated including - Crystal Downs / NGLA / San Francisco / Cypress / Spyglass  / Seminole / Fishers / Shoreacres / LACC / Salem / BCC  - Five Farms East / Friars Head / Maidstone / Quaker Ridge  / Spyglass / Pacific Dunes  to name a few .

If one wants to bring the state of Victoria in Australia into the mix you must include the province of Ontario -numerous courses  that would hold their own if they were south of the border for various reasons all within a 2-3 hour drive of Toronto:

The National
St Georges
Hamilton
Rocky Crest
Beacon Hall
Essex
Toronto Golf Club
Scarboro
Redtail
Bigwin
Deerhurst
Glen Abbey
Devils Pulpit
Devils Paintbrush

John Krystynak:

Re Victoria: you missed National Old and obviously Kingston Heath is highly rated even though I did not get it and you have to include The Capital club for "vibe factor"  -nothing like playing a good course when you are the only person on the course except your caddie and the maintenance staff.

Craig:

If you are talking per square mile as criteria -Rhode Island would have to factor in as they have Newport and Wannamoisett among others, and then one must include my former residence  -Bermuda -20 square miles  and they have Mid Ocean, Port Royal , Tuckers Point  formerly known as Castle Harbour


 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Shouldn't there be some weighting in this for the size of the state? If PA and NJ are fairly close in quality, shouldn't NJ get the nod? And, if we consider quality gcs per square mile, what about Washington DC? I know it's not a state but it's surrounded by states and has its own government, income tax, police, and license plates.

DC has 4 courses with great histories - Rock Creek (Flynn), East Potomac Park (36 holes from Robert White and possibly Walter Travis as well as one of the country's first miniature golf courses), Langston (Wm Gordon). And for those worrying about access - they are all public and inexpensive with no extra charges for non-residents. There is a fifth course at Ft. McNair - just across from East Potomac Park - but since its on a military reservation within DC, it doesn't count. I'm not sure about access either. If any of you would like to get on, send me an IM and I'll see what I can do.

Craig-

  Hmm...I like your opinion, but you know as well as I do, DC's public golf courses do suffer from poor conditioning and obvious neglect.  
The private clubs are overall good, but nowhere near the strength of the areas up Interstate 95.  
Having said that, if several things were different, you would have several architects represented in a small area; think about this:  Travis (Columbia, EPP), Ross (Orig. Indian Spring, orig. WG&CC), Flynn (several redesigns, orig. Beaver Dam, Manor, orig. Woodmont, Friendship, and several others within a short distance), Emmet (Congressional), Colt/Alison (Burning Tree, Chevy Chase), and a great Tillinghast a short distance away in Baltimore CC.  
I know Prince George's was supposed to be great as well.  

The thing is, because of poor planning, management, ownership, etc, a lot of these courses are NLE    and others have been altered or are on the block as we speak (I can almost see the steam coming from Craig Disher's ears right now!), in comparison to other metropolitan areas in the East, such as the greater NY/NJ area, Phila, and Boston, to name several.  

From my understanding, in the immediate DC area, I would say only Columbia and Burning Tree are probably the closest to the original designs/original layouts, from what I know.  There undoubtedly have been some changes, but not to the marked effect other courses have experienced.  

[Gerry B]

And we all forgot the 50th state in the union- Hawaii - no top 10's but a lot of very good courses spread out among the various islands. It definitely wins best weather,setting and coffee hands down

[SPDB]

Gerry B. - A note on your use of Open courses, the Philly Cricket course used for the Open - the St. Martin's Course, has now been reduced to a nine holer. The Flourtown courses that the club features today have not been used for any major championships....yet.

[Gerry B]

SBDB -thanks for the info .

I did consider courses that are  either extinct or at different sites than those that hosted Opens in the early years.
I have played Phily Cricket and am aware of that fact  - was forced to play the 9 hole St Martin's by a member to say I had played another Open course - plus as the last open there was in 1910 -Tillinghast  had not designd Flourtown yet let alone his first course Shawnee on Delaware if I remember correctly.

Same goes for such courses as Country Club of Buffalo (1912 -now Grover Cleveland)and  Baltimore Country Club - 1898 -Roland Park) and The Chicago Golf Club - I am not sure if the current Wheaton site was ever used for the 3 Opens that were played there including the last one held in 1911 prior to the Raynor re-design in the 1920's.Maybe someone can answer that question.

Baltusrol's earliest Open  - 1904 was also not The Lower Course as we know it - ie pre Tillinghast.

And one can add Englewood to the list.

I was making the point of states that had hosted opens to give a different perspective to the discussion.

If the Open criteria is considered factoring in a course that has not changed its site over the years -Oakmont wins hands down and Pennsylvania should be declared the winner.

[Casey Wade]

I've got to go with Michigan on the sheer amount of golf courses.  And for every Crystal Downs there's a Crystal Mountain and Point O' Woods there's a Lake Michigan Hills.

I've played in many of the states mentioned and there are great golf courses in each one, but there's a hundred very nice tracks at reasonable rates.

[Craig Disher]

Gerry,
Bermuda certainly cleans the table on quality courses per square mile. Don't forget Riddel's Bay and Belmont - two examples of what can be done on very tiny pieces of land. That's 5 18-hole courses, two of which are of extremely high quality, on a very small island.

Doug,
My comment on DC was a wave at humor. However, I do have some warm feelings for Rock Creek - with a little effort, it could be an urban gem. Sadly, it seems to be used only as only test farm for  developing hardy strains of crabgrass.

Montgomery County also had another Ross design, Bannockburn CC, which was located near McArthur Blvd and Wilson Lane. The course was sold for housing in the 40s but the clubhouse still stands. I've been in it and it's quite impressive.

[Tom_Doak]

3.  NJ
4.  PA
5.  MA
6.  MI
7.  OH
8.  SC
9.  MN
10. IL

I'm away from home so I did not/could not add up my Confidential Guide ratings for the various states.  If I had, I think it would come out pretty close to the above.  Illinois fans are likely to be most distressed by my vote, but there just isn't the variety there; actually there is much more variety of courses today in Florida or Georgia.

[Mike_Trenham]

In terms of balance classic/modern private/public, CA far exceeds NY it is not even close.  

PA is a clearly 3rd place fininsher maybe a 2nd place tie with CA for classic/private courses, but is in the bottom or 3rd quartile for modern/private, modern/public, classic/public.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Doug,
My comment on DC was a wave at humor. However, I do have some warm feelings for Rock Creek - with a little effort, it could be an urban gem. Sadly, it seems to be used only as only test farm for  developing hardy strains of crabgrass.

Montgomery County also had another Ross design, Bannockburn CC, which was located near McArthur Blvd and Wilson Lane. The course was sold for housing in the 40s but the clubhouse still stands. I've been in it and it's quite impressive.

Craig-

  I hear you.  You are correct, though.  Maybe we could try to get over to RCP before I pack up and head back up north.  

Do they have a range?  That's where I hit it best, you know...

[Mike Nuzzo]

Lets not forget New Mexico ... 3 courses listed in Golf Mags top 100 you can play.  
One more than NY and NJ combined.
And to think they were all designed by the same firm?

[Evan_Green]

Tom-

I seem to remember from your book you saying that you thought that CA probably had the best quality courses of any state. Do you think with the addition of Friar's Head and a few others that NY has surpassed CA for #1?

Evan

[Mark Brown]

Pennsylvania (hidden gem Kahkwa Club, Erie. PA -- hosting Women's Amateur this week -- a Donald Ross beauty - great terrain and green sites.

2nd - Ohio - just go to Columbus

[Craig Disher]

Doug,
You want a range? Man, the whole course might as well be a range. You'll feel right at home.

Give me a call or an IM when you have some free time. I'll bring an old aerial of Flynn's design and we can do some archaeology. There is at least one abandoned greensite that I'd like to identify.

By this time of year the course will be as hard as granite. If you have an old piece of carpet, bring it.

[Dave_Miller]

Good points/opinions all, esp Gerry that Massachusetts also deserves a look for 3rd best golf state in US. Undoubtedly some top notch courses there.

OK heres are points standings so far:

New Jersey 4.5
Pennsylvania 2.5
Ohio - 2
Michigan - 2

Keep the votes coming!

Evan:
As the saying goes:
"Pound for pound, inch for inch"
Don't forget little 'ol Rhode Island.  Unbelievable number of great golf courses in a very tiny area.  just a few:
Wannamoissett, Newport, Warwick, Wanamatonomy, Newprt national, Point Judith, Agwam Hunt, etc. etc.
Unbelievable for such a small state.
Best
Dave

[Paul_Turner]

Actually, the "51st State" is easily #1.

[Matt_Ward]

FOHGEDABOUDIT ... It's Tony Soprano land ... no contest!

[David Wigler]

Pennsylvania then Michigan.  Pennsylvania might be number 2 overall if it could claim that suburban Philly course that happens to fall into New Jersey.