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Hillsideb52

Architects:William and David Gordon
« on: June 12, 2003, 05:30:44 AM »
I played a design by these architects last Friday in Philadelphia.  Sunnybrook Golf Club.  I was not familiar with them as architects until I played the course and read that they designed White Manor CC (at it's present site and until the re-do).

What are some of their other works and in what level of regard are they held?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChasLawler

Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2003, 06:25:46 AM »
The little I know about them is that William Gordon worked under Toomey and Flynn for a little while, and that William and his son David designed Willow Oaks CC in Richmond, VA - a pleasant course with a couple of holes along the James River, but nothing spectacular.

Below is a brief biography of the two from the Willow Oaks website.

"(William) Gordon was an outstanding athlete in his youth and served as athletic instructor with the U.S. Navy during World War I. Upon discharge he took a job as salesman with the Peterson Seed Company and in 1920 joined the Carter's Tested Seed Company as superintendent of its golf course construction division. In this capacity he constructed courses for such well-known golf architects as Willie Park, Jr., Leonard Macomber, Donald Ross and Devereux Emmet.
     In 1923 Gordon joined the firm of Toomey and Flynn, where he remained until 1941. During the Depression, he was also part owner and manager of Marble Hall GC in Philadelphia. Gordon founded the Pennsylvania Public Golfers association and served as its first president from 1936 until 1940 and was also a member and president of the Philadelphia Public Golfers Association.
     In 1941 Gordon formed his own corporation, which was involved until 1945 in the seeding of military installations. For the next five years the firm constructed golf courses for Donald Ross and J. B. McGovern. From 1950 to 1973 Gordon designed and built courses on his own under the incorporated name of William F. Gordon Co. Most of his courses planned after 1953 were done in collaboration with his son David. He died in 1974 at his home in Abington, Pennsylvania.
     (David) Gordon became a partner in the Gordon firm in 1952 and was involved in all aspects of the business. He continued to maintain the practice after his father's death in 1974, retiring from active work in the mid 1980's.
     In partnership with his father and on his own, he designed hundreds of courses throughout the United States, primarily on the East Coast. In addition to Willow Oaks Country Club, which he designed with his father, he also designed the following Virginia courses: Ethelwood CC (Richmond, 1957); Warwick CC; and Williamsburg CC (1960). He was also responsible for a 1963 remodeling of Hermitage Country Club in Richmond, Virginia"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2003, 07:14:43 AM »
Perhaps their most famous design is the Grace course at Saucon Valley, of which several here have said is not deserving of past Top 100 status.  Also did the Weyhill course there.

They also did the Stanwich Club in CT, home of last year's Mid-Am (though more seemed to like Round Hill, co-host of the qualifying rounds)

David was partners with Alfred Tull when they did the Dupont course at Dupont CC, home of last week's McDonald's LPGA Championship.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2003, 07:43:40 AM »
You can't walk around the Philadelphia region without tripping over one of their courses.  They also did a ton of redesign work during their careers.

Off the top of my head, probably my favorite of their courses is hidden gem Medford Village CC in New Jersey, originally known as Sunny Jim CC.  It was designed to rival Pine Valley for challenge, and although it's been toned down over the years, provides a lot of interesting holes and exciting golf.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

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Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2003, 09:57:10 AM »
I had heard that they did Locust Valley,a fun public course in the Quakertown area--interesting green contours.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2003, 10:12:08 AM »
I played Locust Valley about 10 years ago.  Remember a few holes and that it wasn't a bad course.  Had a RTJ-type par 3 near road bisecting course, with 75% of green fronted by water.  I'd bet the farm that Cirba has played it, being up the road from his old house and being the Johnny Appleseed of Eastern PA golf.

After LV, I played the, uh, 'quirky' Center Valley Club, then showered in the Saucon Valley locker room, uninvited and unaccompanied.  Just act like you're supposed to be there.   8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2003, 10:18:16 AM »
If you want to play two "sleeper" William Gordon designs I recommend the following:

Buena Vista (near Atlantic City in Buena, NJ) right off Rte 40. This public course is quite good as many holes weave in and out of the pines. The par-5 10th is a wonderful risk'n reward type hole. Originally Buena Vista was private but has been public for quite some time and I can say with a bit of certainty that at the minimum it's among the top 25 public courses in the Garden State. Since the course is not immediately near the ocean it often gets overlooked.

Oak Hill (located just off I-78 as you head to Pennsy from NJ) This private club is seldom mentioned because of its remote location. Gordon designed a very nice layout but the strength of the course is the undulatiing putting surfaces. Certainly worth a look if you can get on.

Last item -- I cannot believe that the Grace Course at Saucon gets all the ink that it does. The land is flat as a pancake and defies it's location in the Lehigh Valley area. How the Grace continues to maintain top 100 status by the different magazines astounds me given the quality of courses nearby (Lehigh to name just one) that get far little attention.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

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Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2003, 10:25:35 AM »
Matt
 I have played Buena and enjoyed #10.How about the Mafia houses on the fringe of the course?I swear i saw Paulie.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

Matt_Ward

Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2003, 10:28:18 AM »
mayday:

If the woods could talk at Buena you could fill an entire season of episodes for The Sopranos!

If you've been to the course lately I have heard reports that conditioning has been spotty the last couple of seasons.

P.S. Mike Cirba hit the nail big time on the former Sunny Jim's now Medford Village. The course is quite demanding and very good for what it accomplished but it too flies below the radar screen for many players.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

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Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2003, 10:36:39 AM »
I used to play Medford Village in a company outing each year:always found it demanding but fair.


Matt
  I only played Buena once.Interestingly,a friend of mine who likes to find moderately priced public courses that are better than average brought me to both Buena and L V.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

wsmorrison

Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2003, 10:37:16 AM »
William and David Gordon designed Old York Road CC in Springhouse, PA  in 1963.  Pretty good design with greens that have considerable internal contours.  Putted off the 1st green in a GAP match this year with the pin in the very front and my ball I thought safely in the middle of the green.  I never did get a feel for the right side to approach the greens; they seemed difficult from any angle of attack.  Very few greens where you could play run-up shots, typical of Gordons.

The Gordons also redesigned the current 18th hole (formerly the 15th) at Philly Country when the clubhouse moved from Lafayette Road to Spring Mill Road.  This resulted in a shorter hole that is rather anti-climactic after current 15,16, and 17.  The former 15th was a heck of a long and difficult par4 with the finish at the present putting green.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

mike_malone

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Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2003, 10:54:34 AM »
Scott
   Based on some of these courses mentioned---LV,Buena,and Old York Road---each that seem to have undulating greens,do you think the Gordons may have been involved in the Nemours course given its contours?
 When i played there in the 60's there was a wonderful par five along rte.141 that had neat internal contouring.You could stand on the green and look into the hospital grounds.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2003, 11:08:21 AM »
Boy, I could stay on this topic all day.  Unfortunately, I'm somewhat beleaguered at work and only have a moment right now.  

I've gone through my database of courses played and realize that I've played 30 of their original designs and 14 courses where they made revisions of some sort.  

I would concur with Mayday (your friend has GOOD taste!), Matt, and Scott about Locust Valley (a big favorite of redanman, as well) and Buena Vista being among their tops.

They also have a very unique style of bunkering their greens, where many are higher at the side edges than the middle, in sort of a saddle approach.  You don't want to be short-siding yourself on most of their courses because of it.

They also have many par-fives that are double doglegs, including the aforementioned 10th at Buena Vista.  

They didn't design anything greater than a Doak Scale 7 that i'm familiar with, but quite a few in that 5-6 range of good, if non-groundbreaking quality.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2003, 11:12:27 AM »
mayday;

One other thought.  Was the DuPont Nemours course renamed Deerfield CC?

If so, it was designed by the Gordons in 1955.  Really a fun course, and I know Scott has it listed among his "hidden gems".  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

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Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2003, 11:17:15 AM »
Mike C
 Nemours is what my dad called the "sporty" course  across the street from the Dupont course;you are thinking of the Louviers course near Newark(that is new ark:not newerk)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2003, 11:28:05 AM »
Mayday has it.  Louviers=Deerfield (sold to MBNA in 1994, less than a year after I left).

It's possible Gordons (or just David, perhaps) had a hand in Nemours, since Tull is listed as sole architect and was co-archie on DuPont.  But then again, why would his name be on one and not the other?  Tull had a hand in a few fun greens.  Look at #10 (especially), #5, and #13 on the Dupont course, but I don't remember too many other tough greens at Dupont, though.

Of the 4, I'd take Louviers any day, though 36 in one day on Louviers would be a feat.  I don't remember it, but I believe a pond on #10 at Louviers has been added at inside dogleg at bottom of hill.  Nothing like making an already tough (but fun!) tee shot tougher.  That course always needed a chainsaw though, especially on holes 1,5,9, 10, and 14.

Nemours was always called the sporty one, but Louviers was the E ticket.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2003, 11:30:29 AM »
mayday;

Louviers, Nemours...who the hell named them??  They sound like the animated inanimate characters in Disney's
Beauty and the Beast"!

I know the Gordon's worked on all of the courses at Dupont though, mostly in the mid 50s.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

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Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2003, 11:44:38 AM »
I believe the original Mr. Dupont was" de Nemours".Louviers was the name of the engineering building next to the golf course.There was a nine hole course called Black Gates near the tennis courts,which was turned into an eighteen hole course par low 60's --no par 5's---renamed Montchanin--there i go again --more French.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

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Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2003, 12:02:44 PM »
Scott
 I certainly always thought that you just aim for the middle of the Dupont greens and you are ten feet from the hole.I would say #3 was ok.It had a little hill at the  front of  the green with  an uphill approach;#6 downhill approach with  a slope front to middle;#8 long iron to severe left to right slope;#11 #17 have slopes off bunkers that create putting problems;#18 another uphill with slight front to middle slope..I noticed the women having trouble with five footers on this green last weekend.(i know they are lousy putters)
   As for #10 Louviers(i refuse to recognize the 5 million dollar  sale of a building and a golf course)they removed some trees on the left for the drainage pond.The pond is only accessible by either your hook or Cirba's(i forget which of you had a more serious ailment)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2003, 12:12:35 PM »
I always wondered about the correct pronunciation of Louviers, which everyone called "Loo-VEERZ", instead of the seemingly correct French pronunciation, as in Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy = "Boo-vee-AY"

Mayday,

As for the par 5 along route 141, the short 7th fits the bill.  Tee box near road at corner of property hitting at 30 degree angle away, uphill, then doglegs right about 30 degrees.  About 485 yards.  I won what was I believe my first ever Long Drive on that hole during a tournament.  Have won maybe 5 total (competition isn't always stiff.... ::) )  Usually do a "Most Muscular" pose when accepting prize....always gets laughs due to my ironically spindly body.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2003, 12:19:23 PM »
I don't remember any hooks when I played with your at RG.  All pushes/blocks that day.  A Cirba hook goes away from that pond, being the mollydooker he is (I do remember a few hooks out of him  ;D).  

Funny, since a bad hook has been my main malady off the tee ever since.

I watched the women putt on 18 at Dupont and the green looked to be more severe than I remember.  Don't know if Lester George's work has started there or not, which could be attributable to that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2003, 12:43:36 PM »
Scott;

Me hook??  

I prefer to think of it as my low, hard draw.  ;)  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2003, 12:49:56 PM »
I am looking forward to some changes at Uncle Duppie.I understand the plans call for #15 green being moved to the other side of the creek by #16 tee. #16 tee moved into trees to straighten that early dogleg.
  I also remember talk of taking #1 #2 on Nemours and making them driving range and converting existing range to two holes.
   I do not think anything has been done to #18 green



 Try to beat the storms!!!See you later
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2003, 01:30:30 PM »
To get back to Hillside's original topic, I have a question for him.

How did you like Sunnybrook?  I know GeoffreyC played there last year and liked it quite a bit.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: Architects:William and David Gordon
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2003, 08:57:18 AM »
They did all 36 at Elm Ridge in Montreal. The two courses are really good with the north being my favourite. Golf courses are good routings, solid strategies and wonderful plateau greens with great contouring. Highly recommend the course if in the city, only difficulty is that it is "the" Jewish club in the city.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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