Report from Shinnecock Hills

[ChipOat]

General comments that all knowlegeable GCA'ers who saw the recent U.S. Open might appreciate:

1) Despite the fuss over the greens on #'s 7 & 10, only the 1st green was (partially) lost.  It's coming back pretty well.

2) I was not successful hitting many (long and short) downhill putts hard enough - the greens certainly aren't slow but being above the hole was anything but scary.  According to a longtime member, the greens are being watered for everyday play "more than normal" due to ongoing concern about turf quality plus a certain reactive sensitivity to a perceived Mickey Mouse/mini-golf reputation from the tournament.  I saw no evidence of clown's noses, lopp-the-loops or windmills (except in the distance at National).

3) The caddy corps is adament that #7 green is challenging enough under everyday play conditions and the USGA completely missed the boat in assuming that the world's greatest players needed extra clhallenge.  "The hole is a par 4, anyway - why make it a par 6?".

4) If you didn't know that a "major" had been played there 7 weeks ago, you would never guess it from the condition of the grounds (except around parts of the perimeter).  The trampled down rough in the spectator areas does yield better lies than the rough just off the fairways so the playability of the course is marginally easier for the guy who hits it "long and wrong".  Otherwise, all evidence of the infrastructure and the people is gone.

5) I hit 8 iron into a couple of acknowledged "great" par 4's that I remember being pretty good 3-5 irons for me when I was 25 years younger.


With apologies to those who've not played the course:

1) Adding 60-85 yards on #'s 4, 9, 15 and 18 makes those holes LONG!!

2) The green on SH's Redan (#7 - Flynn left it from CBM's design) is about 1/2 the size of NGLA's Redan green and the topography of the hole doesn't lend itself to bouncing the ball on from the right quite as readily.  The green does feed sharply to the left and the Redan bunker is quite deep.

3) If #11 isn't the world's greatest short par 3, it's surely the best I've ever played BY FAR (I've not played Troon).  If you miss the green (straight) long going downwind, the little pitch back into the wind is actually do-able.  Under any conditions, missing left is guaranteed dead.

4) Because of the tree removal at National, you can see the top of the hill on the 3rd hole at NGLA from the 13th tee at Shinnecock.  The perimeter trees at National haven't been touched so the view isn't totally unobstructed, but it still looks pretty neat.

The floor is now open for questions.

[Gary_Nelson]

You say #7 green at SH is half the size of NGLA's Redan.  Which green (SH or NGLA) is closest in size to the original in N. Berwick?

[rgkeller]

Has the Super begin restoring the fairways to their normal width?

[TEPaul]

rgkeller:

The super has been saying all along they'll start mowing the fairways back out in the fall, not in the middle of the summer.

Chip:

Some very interesting information there---thanks. There's probably little question that the greens of Shinnecock were stressed out into and through the Open, but in my opinion, completely expected in every way under the monitoring of Michaud. In my opinion, that guy is one awesome super, probably the very best out there, all and all----I think he knew EXACTLY where every inch of that course was at all times. Sure, there's going to be some expected remediation time and some inconveniences coming out of something like a US Open but I don't think there was anything that happened going in or coming out that took him by surprise or that he felt he couldn't handle. I spent some time up there with him and a few others on the Friday after the Open final round and while I don't understand any of the details he apparently felt he shouldn't wait around to see if the greens would come out of the Open more on their own so he decided to treat them with a more comprehensive program of remediation.

In my opinion, that's the indication of a really great super. Most all golfers don't have the vaguest idea of all the potential disasters supers face (particularly coming out of something like an Open) so most golfers really never appreciate the timing and expertise of how supers avoid potential disasters! If it was up to a guy like Michaud he'd probably have preferred to just shut the course down for a little breather and some remediation time but of course no club really understands what he has to technically go through so they treat the course as if nothing much really happened and they want to hold the club championship the next weekend and a ton of outings or whatever immediately after that, always expecting the course to be normal.

Some of these supers are forced to have way too many balls in their air for the logical good of their course's agronomy but the fact that many of them handle it as well as they do is something that should be taken way more note of than ever really is!

[ChipOat]

Gary Nelson:

I don't know but there's got to be a bunch of guys here that do.

rgkeller:

See Tom Paul's response.  The fairways don't seem unfairly narrow now so I'm not sure what's really needed in that regard.

[LenBum]

"The floor is now open for questions."

Well, I don't have questions, just a few corrections.

"Despite the fuss over the greens on #'s 7 & 10, only the 1st green was (partially) lost.  It's coming back pretty well."

Sounds like you played there recently. This just confirms the great job Mark Michaud and his crew have done bringing the course back.
Many greens were left damaged. The worst being the 1st,7th 13th and 14th. The 2nd and 3rd were the best. But all had some degree of damage. My guess would be the 1st lost 40% of it's surface.

"I saw no evidence of clown's noses, lopp-the-loops or windmills (except in the distance at National)."


The USGA took them away immediatly after the Open........and blamed the grounds crew for them being there in the first place....


3) "The caddy corps is adament that #7 green is challenging enough under everyday play conditions and the USGA completely missed the boat in assuming that the world's greatest players needed extra clhallenge.  "The hole is a par 4, anyway - why make it a par 6?".


Maybe for you, not for me.



4) If you didn't know that a "major" had been played there 7 weeks ago, you would never guess it from the condition of the grounds (except around parts of the perimeter).  The trampled down rough in the spectator areas does yield better lies than the rough just off the fairways so the playability of the course is marginally easier for the guy who hits it "long and wrong".  Otherwise, all evidence of the infrastructure and the people is gone.


Absolutely Agree


5) I hit 8 iron into a couple of acknowledged "great" par 4's that I remember being pretty good 3-5 irons for me when I was 25 years younger.


And those holes would be.........................




With apologies to those who've not played the course:

1) Adding 60-85 yards on #'s 4, 9, 15 and 18 makes those holes LONG!!


3 holes were lengthened for the 2004 Open. 9, 15 and 18 weren't touched. 3,4 and 8 were lengthened less than 100 yards total.

2) The green on SH's Redan (#7 - Flynn left it from CBM's design) is about 1/2 the size of NGLA's Redan green and the topography of the hole doesn't lend itself to bouncing the ball on from the right quite as readily.  The green does feed sharply to the left and the Redan bunker is quite deep.


I don't know how much square footage the 4th at National has but I'd guess it isn't twice the size of the 7th at Shinnecock.




3) If #11 isn't the world's greatest short par 3, it's surely the best I've ever played BY FAR (I've not played Troon).  If you miss the green (straight) long going downwind, the little pitch back into the wind is actually do-able.  Under any conditions, missing left is guaranteed dead.


It is the world's greatest short par 3.........I'm a little impartial though

4) Because of the tree removal at National, you can see the top of the hill on the 3rd hole at NGLA from the 13th tee at Shinnecock.  The perimeter trees at National haven't been touched so the view isn't totally unobstructed, but it still looks pretty neat.

Never noticed the hill of National's 3rd but there are a number of area's now visible, Sebonack GC included.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thanks Len,

When Chip first posted this thread, I just knew that had to be somewhat of an over-exageration. Of course though, I'm the king of that, right Chip!  

If ever there was a perfect example of great looking and playing bunkers that can both intimidate and impress on a US Open course--its Shinnecock.

If anyone ever drives up in a construction truck that says Ronald McDonald & Son, please, oh please run them out on a rail out of town ASAP!