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Matt_Ward

Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2008, 01:56:34 PM »
Andrew:

Bias does exist. If such bias is educated in terms of being able to discriminate between courses that's fine -- when it's done as a homer for a given area or for even a given architect (which happens way too often on GCA) then it's gone overboard, in my mind.

There are people who look at their own home state and simply conclude that all the good golf is simply within their area. For example, as much as the greater NYC metro area has some of the finest array of golf courses in the USA or even globally -- it would be remiss for any person (and there are some who don't see beyond the Hudson River as the famed "New Yorker" cartoon illustrated some time ago) to think that excellent golf cannot be created elsewhere.

Andrew, you might be surprised to know that quite a few people ro travel quite extensively. I can only speak to my own situation and until very recently it was not unheard of for me to play on average 40-50 new courses per year -- and that doesn't include a wide array of courses already opened that I wanted to either return to play or seek out for a first time visit. There are people who are even more intense than me and a good number of them do offer a good accounting of what made their visit special and for others to seek out. Keep in mind, that well traveled people are not necessarily panelists or people who post here.

There's no doubt that many people might only have one trip per lifetime to Australia or New Zealand, to mention to areas quite a distance from the States. I try to avail myself of local people who know such areas and try to incorporate an itinerary of courses that would best reflect the area in question. No doubt a one time visit is limited because unless you can stay for an extended period of time -- say at least 4-6 weeks -- it can be limited to only the top tier.

And that was one of my previous points -- when people do make visits they simply play the SAME cast of characters and this has a habit in keeping those sacred cows -- some are deserving and others aren't -- in being where they are located on any such ranking. Getting good info / contacts, even in the Internet age, is still a challenge because there are a number of worthy courses that get much little fanfare. I've made it a point on this thread to point out that serious depth of quality golf that's in the States and for any person who were to visit my "neck of the woods" and only play the likes of Shinnecock or Winged Foot or Plainfield -- would be missing out on a broader range of other courses that will never hosta major or draw such broader acclaim.

Andrew, there's little doubt that a current time frame needs to be incorporated into any assessment of courses. You have people who do rate a course from a visit that could be as long as 10 years ago. To give you a better idea -- I have played Sand Hills in Nebraska shortly after it opened -- I have not been back there since so my understanding of what the course is TODAY has to be kept with that in mind.

No doubt magazines should scale anyone's assessment of a course based on an appropriate time line. Ratings that are more than five (5) years old should be discarded for the obvious reasons that all things go evolve. You also have the real possibility that such course(s) have gone through either changes -- both good or bad -- and also course work such as renovation -- which needs to be accounted.

Last point -- you asked about how many people have played all of the world's top courses. I can't answer that directly -- but let me finish by saying this -- it's not just the total number of courses played but the kind of analysis that the respective rater brings to the table too. You need to combine the two aspects in order to get a real gleaning of what is happening.

No doubt the field work element is essential because without it you would have nothing more than people who are basing their accounts on third hand sources or from photos or other such things. A world ratings is difficult because of the size of the planet and for the other reasons I mentioned but it's possible you can get a good idea given the speed of real time information today. At the end of the day -- one has to remember it is subjective and in any consensus formula you will have issues that I, and others, have already discussed.

Sean Arble:

I agree with your "clubby" comment. No doubt once a course gets mentioned -- especially in a top 50 position -- it can be almost impossible for it to lose ground. Witness the inane design "improvements" made at ANGC yet the course is still seen by "experts" as a top 10 layout in the world.

However ...

When you say many American courses are "over-rated" -- you fail to comprehend -- likely because you have scratched the surface of a variety of courses here in the States -- that the sheer depth of layouts in America is often thought to be second tier stuff. Quite the contrary -- since the 1990's a number of superior courses have opened yet they are still trying to break through the glass ceiling that prevents them from being seen as truly great courses of the modern time frame.

So many of the hanger-on courses are nothing more than relics with plenty of dust on their bodies. They need to be pushed off while still being celebrated in a lesser light. Unfortunately, many raters are themselves clubby and have a tendency to play only the same type of courses and therefore only vote for what they have always perceived as the same usual suspects.

Let me address your last point -- yes, it would be great to see courses of less than 6,500 yards be considered. But, such consideration should not be seen as a throw-away consideration simply because they are shorter. Very, very few courses have the totality of the design to hold the attention of the top player when lesser lengths are involved. Those advocating their inclusion usually have a selfish motive because they themselves don't have the length to handle the courses with more length.

I have an open mind to such courses but it's more likely you will see overseas locations having such layouts because the American course development model doesn't seem to factor in such courses as a major selling point.

One last item on that point -- I have mentioned a number of such courses in my neck of the woods in metro NYC -- they are not to be included on a world top 100 but would be worth a play for anyone looking for more than just the championship level designs.

Jon W:

I say what I did for a clear reason -- I don't value or place in emphasis the LOCATION of the course itself. I simply analyze the COURSE and let it go at that. I am not a fool to believe that others do it in the reverse fashion.

Jon, the USA has the greatest number of courses of any nation in the world. You may not fathom that sheer depth of courses just in the greater NYC metro area alone -- candidly, the metro NYC area could hold its own against the likes of any top tier country -- and that includes the likes of Ireland and Scotland, to name two quick ones.

The USA also has an array of top tier layouts -- opened since 1990 -- that get little fanfare -- save for what you see here on GCA. I don't see the USA side of the equation as overrated -- however, I do see specific courses already listed from the USA as being overrated and could be replaced in a New York minute by others.  

  





Mark_F

Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2008, 03:00:40 PM »

Why does Australia have such a dearth of great golf courses? 

Rich,

Because the great ones close down before they arte actually open...

It's an interesting question.  The Mornington Peninsula south of Melbourne has such wonderful land for golf, yet of the 7 courses built there in the last 20 years, only two of them are notable in any way. Choice of designer clearly has something to do with the failure of the rest.

Buggerising around with a few of the others that might make the grade - Royal Adelaide, Commonwealth, Victoria - doesn't help much. 

Another part of the reason might be that Australians tend to think their homew grown product in many things is much better than it really is.  A local TV series here, Underbelly , recently swept the local film awards, and it's the biggest pile of crap made here in years, yet everyone has been slapping them selves on the back over it.

However, you could also ask why such a small and insignificant country as England has produced so many great rock n roll acts, and the USA has only produced one...

Tony Ristola

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Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2008, 03:06:18 PM »
Are USA golf courses overrated ?
Overweighted in Top 100 in the World lists?
Yes.

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2008, 04:19:40 PM »
This one always baffles me -- and I get it in Canada, where the Western Canadian courses, like a lot of Western Canadians (with their bank accounts loaded down with oil mony) say Ontario courses get some sort of benefit from being in Ontario.

That said, I've never heard someone play a great course and say, "My, that was great. Now if it had only been in [insert state or province name here.]" A great course is a great course -- and I have no idea why someone would rate a course more highly because of where it is located.


Jon W:

I say what I did for a clear reason -- I don't value or place in emphasis the LOCATION of the course itself. I simply analyze the COURSE and let it go at that. I am not a fool to believe that others do it in the reverse fashion.

Jon, the USA has the greatest number of courses of any nation in the world. You may not fathom that sheer depth of courses just in the greater NYC metro area alone -- candidly, the metro NYC area could hold its own against the likes of any top tier country -- and that includes the likes of Ireland and Scotland, to name two quick ones.

The USA also has an array of top tier layouts -- opened since 1990 -- that get little fanfare -- save for what you see here on GCA. I don't see the USA side of the equation as overrated -- however, I do see specific courses already listed from the USA as being overrated and could be replaced in a New York minute by others.  

  

Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Andrew Summerell

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Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2008, 07:03:26 PM »
Andrew, you might be surprised to know that quite a few people ro travel quite extensively. I can only speak to my own situation and until very recently it was not unheard of for me to play on average 40-50 new courses per year -- and that doesn't include a wide array of courses already opened that I wanted to either return to play or seek out for a first time visit. There are people who are even more intense than me and a good number of them do offer a good accounting of what made their visit special and for others to seek out. Keep in mind, that well traveled people are not necessarily panelists or people who post here.

There's no doubt that many people might only have one trip per lifetime to Australia or New Zealand, to mention to areas quite a distance from the States. I try to avail myself of local people who know such areas and try to incorporate an itinerary of courses that would best reflect the area in question. No doubt a one time visit is limited because unless you can stay for an extended period of time -- say at least 4-6 weeks -- it can be limited to only the top tier.

Matt,

Thanks for your response. I am not surprised to know that quite a few people travel extensively. It’s what I do & I assume I’m not Robinson Crusoe. I have also met, from my own experience as a panellist, a lot that don’t travel yet still believe they have a right to rank courses they haven’t seen for a decade, which is one of the reasons I stopped being a panellist. My point was, should those who don’t make the effort be included in these panels?

As I said in my first post, I believe the percentage of American courses in the Top 100 is about right & I agree that the American courses that may be removed could easily be replaced with other American courses.

These lists are (should be) basically just for fun & to sell a few magazines, but too many clubs, resorts, courses & people take them too seriously. That has always been a concern of mine. I have played a majority of the World Top 100 & there aren’t many courses on the list that I believe shouldn’t be there, but it’s a subjective matter & even following the criterion two people would come up with two different lists.

I think we have similar ideals, Matt; we are just expressing them differently.

Andrew Summerell

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Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2008, 07:10:12 PM »
That said, I've never heard someone play a great course and say, "My, that was great. Now if it had only been in [insert state or province name here.]" A great course is a great course -- and I have no idea why someone would rate a course more highly because of where it is located.

Robert,

I don’t believe people rate/rank courses based on locale, but they do see/play courses based on locale, so many ‘out of the way’ courses are often not seen.

James Bennett

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Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2008, 09:17:17 PM »

Another question:

Why does Australia have such a dearth of great golf courses?  Based on discussions here I doubt if their top 5 could compete with the top 5 in Ireland (a country 1/50th the size and with 1/5 of the population).

Just wondering....

rfg

Questions, questions.

Critical issues here are the amount of land with climate (temperate with adaquete year-round rainfall), soil and coastline conducive to golf.  Victoria, Tasmania, the SW tip of WA and a thin strip of SA have some of these, although the summer droughts in SA and WA affect the golf courses..

Then you need the local communities and population to support a golf club - that eliminates a lot of the coastal strip.

Ireland has the climate for golfing turf and the coastlines.  One day, I will get to visit.  One day.

Then there is the possability that you are just being argumentative.  That would be a bit Rich though, wouldn't it!

Oh, and most of Australia's Irish heritage today resides in New South Wales - their ancestors received 'free' passage over 200 years ago.  Unfortunately, few of them had played golf in Ireland, judging by the courses in NSW.

James B (not to be mistaken for a dead sheep, and not of Irish convict heritage either)
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Matt_Ward

Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2008, 10:16:24 PM »
Andrew:

People can't be serious if they believe in their mind that they rate a course that they haven't seen / played in a decade. Things do evolve - if people wish to push a rating for such a course they should then list when was the last time they played it so that their rating number is accurately reflected because no course stays exactly the same over a longer period of time.

You should only be able to rate what you have played. I am not one of those who see walking a layout as being the same as playing one. However, I do thing people should be able to provide a rating from just walking it but that such a number should be scaled accordingly. Golf courses feature holes which require specific shots to be played -- it is not an exericse of theory but actual practice and the best way to understand that is through the playing of the game itself.

If someone has played a course from say five or more years ago -- such a rating should either be discarded or scaled down when compared to others who have been there most recently -- say within the last three years.

Andrew, you need to realize this -- it would be extremely difficult to have a "real time" analysis of all the key courses in the world because you would need highly skilled and clearly available people to chart all this stuff so regularly. Frankly, I think it's silly that ratings happen every two years because of the issues I've raised. The better situation would be for ratings every four years -- specifically if you were doing one for the entire planet.

Unfortunately, magazines see rating stories as an annual event because of the fanfare they create for themselves. A number of the magazines really are simply interested in publishing just ANY LIST in order to create overall interest in their pub.

Andrew, don't put the onus on the facilities for taking ratings too seriously. They are only doing what they believe is necessary for self promotion and ratings do provide such things for places like CCFAD courses and those that are resort oriented. Magazines could better reflect what is happening in assessing the layouts but that requires an acknowledgement that certain elements now being used are not working so well.



Kevin Pallier

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Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2008, 07:53:15 AM »
Matt (Ed / Others ?)

What about a course like TPC Sawgrass ? does it really befit it's status of a Top30 course in the USA ? (and Top50 or so in the World ?)

Rich Goodale

Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2008, 08:51:47 AM »

James B (not to be mistaken for a dead sheep, and not of Irish convict heritage either)

So of which convict heritage to you belong?

Yannick Pilon

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Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2008, 12:18:02 PM »
My answer: Yes.

All of them? No.

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Matt_Ward

Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2008, 10:40:33 AM »
Kevin P:

In regards to the question you asked -- I do think TPC / Sawgrass deserves a high placement. Is it top 30 in the USA. I see that as being a bit high but not to the point where I'd fiercely say it doesn't.

Remember what Pete Dye did with that site and how the course has evolved -- quite nicely I might add -- from those early days. The stadium concept that Dye, along with the insistence of then Commissioner Deane Beaman played a major role in shaping how venues of that type would be added to the mix in the competitive arena.

You also have that maddening -- no doubt controversial to some -- with the final trio of holes. The 16th is a fine risk/reward type hole and the 17th has been discussed many times over. Such a short hole put renewed emphasis on the fact that quality holes need not be excessively long to get one's attention and cause a legitimate shiver when playing them in the hear of battle. You also have a superb closer with the 18th -- calls for a gutsy tee shot and should you opt for shorter and safer play off the tee -- the longer approach shot is quite unnerving.

So, in sun, yes -- I'd say the course certainly belongs among the elite company. For me, it's a top 50 in the USA -- and likely I'd have somewhere a bit higher among my choices when other courses from around the globe are added to the mix.

Quick question to you -- do you see it as being a worthy member on both lists ?

Andrew Summerell

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Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2008, 06:52:27 PM »
Remember what Pete Dye did with that site and how the course has evolved -- quite nicely I might add -- from those early days. The stadium concept that Dye, along with the insistence of then Commissioner Deane Beaman played a major role in shaping how venues of that type would be added to the mix in the competitive arena.
Matt,

Do you believe these things are important when ranking/rating a course or should it be how the course is right now?

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2008, 09:46:49 PM »
Matt W

Appreciate your response - the reason why I asked about it specifically is becuase it is one of the few courses that I have seen in the USA.

I cant comment about it's US standing (as you well know) but will do so in the frame of the "World" sense.

Sawgrass's holes of 16-18 holes did get me interested from their design perspective but other than say 11 there wasn't much there for me to say it deserves a spot around the Top50 ahead of courses like:
- Royal Melbourne (East) = who's six holes in the composite routing + it's P3 16th offer more holes of an overall quality in it's 18 than Sawgrass for starters
- Cruden Bay =  it's figure eight routing is subtle but  fantastic - and there are some superb holes eg: 4/5/6 etc
- North Berwick + Swinley Forest = both are classics for architecural study particularly their angles and shorter holes -> "blueprints"

In reference to your question - Sawgrass should certainly be considered within Top100 discussions - others may be able to allude me to things I am missing specifically with regard to it's merits though ?

Mark_F

Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2008, 06:31:08 AM »
.
- Royal Melbourne (East) = who's six holes in the composite routing + it's P3 16th offer more holes of an overall quality in it's 18 than Sawgrass for starters

Kevin,

Why exactly do you think RM East is worthy of a spot in the world top 100?

Sean Walsh

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Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2008, 06:39:21 AM »
Matt Ward,

If only reply 17 had been your post on this thread, might have saved a little angst from what is evolving into a nice discussion.

Rihc,

Re the quality of our course as James points out it is mostly geological and environmental.  i.e The coasts have in general not had rough enough conditions to create links conditions and once you get 50-100km off the coast population is sparse and pre 1950 the desire for golf even more so. 

In short our chance for great courses lies on our coastline (not inland) but for all but small portions these coastlines aren't the golfing heaven of significant parts of the british isles.

Rich Goodale

Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2008, 07:02:17 AM »
Naes

I can't believe that all 10,000 plus miles of your coastline is such crap.  If Ireland had so much coastline she'd have built 50 top-30 courses by now rather than 5.  California or Long Island do not have any proper linksland, but they have each managed to build some decent non-links coastal courses (e.g. Pebble Beach, Cypress Point, NGLA, Shinnecock, etc.).  There must be a far more fundamental flaw in the GCA genome of you Aussies.  You can obviously play the game OK.  What's the problem? ;)

Jean-Paul

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2008, 09:29:30 AM »
.
- Royal Melbourne (East) = who's six holes in the composite routing + it's P3 16th offer more holes of an overall quality in it's 18 than Sawgrass for starters

Kevin,

Why exactly do you think RM East is worthy of a spot in the world top 100?

Mark

Why shouldn't it ?

Matt_Ward

Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2008, 02:42:56 PM »
Andrew:

I merely added those elements to provide the broadest context of what TPC / Sawgrass has achieved over the length of its existence to date. Of course, the current version of the course is what ultimately needs to be assessed - otherwise -- courses would simply live in the past and show any real time elements of note.

TPC / Sawgrass still holds up exceptionally well. Yes, it is an annual venue for the world's top players but credit to Dye and to the folks running the show there to have made needed revisions to the place. There is playability now that didn't exist when it first opened.

The classic line Nicklaus said when the course first opened, "I'm not really good at landing five irons on top of the hoods of a car" was quite apt then -- it's not that way now.

Think of it this way of all the courses Dye has done one can make a very good case that TPC / Sawgrass is his best work because of the revisions that were done. No doubt you would get a strong argument in favor of The Ocean Course or The Golf Club or even Teeth of the Dog. However, TPC / Sawrgrass will thrive from the annual TV attention it gets and the nature of what that final trio of holes does to anyone who plays there.


Kevin P:

Read your post -- a few responses.

People who include these same basic "type" of course within their overall top 50 / top 100 discussions needs to ask themselves this -- do they really have an elastic mind for different types of courses or do they simply keep picking the same type of design that feature elements that are roughly on par with one another?

For example, some people are enamored with the classic design period (1920-1930) and as a result stack nearly all of their favorites as being the best of the best. I salute that era too but I don't see the time period as the be-all / end-all for course contributions made since then.

Kevin, Pete Dye needs to be recognized for his efforts in course architecture. I can make a very good case that his name resides at the top of the design pyramid for the latter half of the 20th century. His work tranformed the industry in so many ways. If you don't recognize TPC/Sawgrass then tell me which one of his designs are that much better? Keep in mind, I do enjoy his other superlative contributions such as The Ocean Course, The Golf Club and Teeth of the Dog, to name a quick three. And, it's likely all three would be added to my all-world top 100 listing.

However, you have forgotten other quality holes at TPC / Sawgras such as the improved first hole. The dangerous short par-4 4th, the demands of the long par-3 8th and the demanding three-shot 9th hole, to name just a few. On the back side you have few apparent weaknesses -- the 10th is as fine opener for the inner half. The 11th you mentioned -- but you forgot to add the qualities of the 14th and 15th -- two of the best par-4's you can play in all of Florida and they swing both ways.

TPC / Sawgrass has had the benefit of PGA Tour involvement from the get-go. It has made needed tweaks over time to accentuate playability even though its course rating / slope from the tips comes out to 76 in change with 155 thrown in to boot.

Those who play the appropriate tees can have the same general feeling of what the world's best face but clearly anyone who attemptes to bite off too much when playing there will be hammered.

Kevin, final item for you to ponder ... plenty of course are often cited because they are unique for a certain level of player. Many of the courses often chosen for such elite listings really could not test the elite player on an everyday basis -- frankly, I see such courses as being essential because they encapsulate the broadest range of concerns. No doubt some will wonder why is such a linkage needed. I refer you to what Tom Doak said about Shinnecock in CG. The last sentence he said about the famed LI layout is where my thought process is on such a subject.

Mark_F

Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2008, 06:13:28 AM »
Why shouldn't it ?

The 1st and 17th aren't that good - you've already done the diagonal bunkers/second shot decision on the 10th, and the 17th green is rather benign.

7,8,14 and 15 aren't that flash either.

1,5 and 15 seem to play rather similarly.

The terrain of the middle and outer paddocks is much less interesting.

All of the left-to-right bending holes - 7 excluded - use treelines or rough as driving hazards, which gets a little mundane, especially on the other paddocks.

I've only seen it a few times - I thought it was better last week than I had remembered from earlier in the year, but I still don't see it being that good.

Sean Walsh

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Re: Are USA golf courses overrated ?
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2008, 05:21:43 PM »
Rihc,

How many of those great Irish courses are on the Southern coast of the island?  That would be zero.  Purely because that end doesn't face the Atlantic or Irish seas, therefore few dunal systems therefore little good golfing ground. 

Hard to make good golf courses on rock (on our coast) or Hard Clay subject to reasonably frequent drought (away from coast).

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