[mark chalfant]

   I would appreciate feedback on  Bayside regarding


fun to play

strategy

memorable  holes  

 green complexes..........nice  contours   ?


      Thanks


ps  if  given  10  rounds  between  Baydside and  Wild Horse

how many at each.

[Tom_Doak]

Severe.  Extremely severe.  I love both those guys, but I'm not a big fan of Bayside.

Dan told me they asked him to do a course that was completely different than Wild Horse, and they tried.  There are some fun shots to try and pull off, but for me there were way too many of them.

[ed_getka]

Mark,
   As I have noted elsewhere, Bayside front nine is the best of the lot IMHO. I would play 8 full WH, to 2 full Bayside rounds. The Bayside back nine is routed over more difficult terrain. Too many forced carries, and undistinguished holes, with a few exceptions. The surrounds, particularly left front of #12 is pretty cool. #12 is a dogleg left par 4. #14 has a cool punchbowl green with a shelf up on the back left, otherwise not much of a hole. #15 is a par 5 that I would be interested in hearing what you thought of. #16 is a decent short par 4, except they forgot to put in the options. #17 is a par 3 with a bunker in the middle of the green, and has some cool internal contouring. If I were you I would play the front nine twice and then drive a cart out to look at the described features.
    WH is a must see for reasonable priced public access golf just for the bunkering alone, but I don't think as highly of it as some on this site. I like the conditioning (F&F), but the greens are average and too many holes are non-descript, such that I have trouble remembering much of the course. It is an excellent warm up course for SH. Come to think of it, maybe thats why I don't rate it so highly, it pales in comparison to the genius of SH.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mark and Tom,

I hesitated to respond to this thread. Tom beat me to it, and I agree with him.

Dave's a good friend of mine, and Dan's a great guy. But Bayside is nothing like Wild Horse.

I believe Bayside was a low budget project, and as a result, Dave was there minimally.

The front nine is decent because the inherent topography was more suited naturally for golf. The back nine though, is laid over very extreme topography that needed to be massaged more than it was. There are some very severe holes out there as a result.

10 rounds between Bayside and Wild Horse? 9 at Wild Horse, 1 at Bayside. Wild Horse is that good.

[ed_getka]

Bayside #1 par 5, with decisions to be made on each shot, ending in a wonderfully contoured green. #2 is a decent par 3. #3 is a par 4 with one of the most natural greensites I have ever seen. #4 is a decent par 4, but has to be played once to understand the line. #5 is a decent skyline par 3. #6 is a strong par 4. The green orientation and surrounds aren't quite right on #6, but I wasn't sure what I would do to change it. #7 is a decent short par 4 with a central fairway bunker that gives you something to think about. #8 is a good par 3 over lots of bunkering. #9 is a nice par 4 to a plateau green that I haven't played well enough to know if it works or not.
   I could not recount the first nine holes of WH if my life depended on it. Hope this helps.

[Cory]

Wild Horse 8 Bayside 2
I would say that Wild Horse is one of the most enjoyable golf courses I have ever played.  I would agree with those that say Baysides front nine is better than its back.  The back 9 is the toughest set of 9 holes I have ever played.  Granted, I have not played a ton of golf courses, however, the back 9 at Bayside forces you to hit perfect shots in a couple of instances.  If you don't put the ball in certain spots on a green or if you are short here or there, you can be in real trouble.  I think that 3 holes are real bears on the back nine.   The par 5 # 11 is a hole that narrows the closer that you get to the green and the fairway also drops off the closer you get to the green. There is no place to miss left or right.  The par 3 # 13 is a hole that has an elevated tee shot to an elevated green with a small canyon/gulley cutting through the middle.  If you are short, you can be 30 feet below the green having to hit straight up to a green that is as hard as a rock.  (At least it was when I played there)  Finally, the par 5 # 15 has a generously wide fairway.  When you hit your approach into the green, you either hit the green or you are in trouble either by your ball running of a side of the hill, that the green is built on, or your ball is in some grass.  The back 9 at Bayside is very difficult, in my opinion.  It is eye candy though.  It has some holes that are awesome looking and very radical.  Two different nines at Bayside.  Definitely worth playing.  

[Norbert P]

 Bayside has some wonderful moments and is worth the trek to get there.  One of my favorite scenes is the approach to #1 green -  like Dorothy stepping into Oz.  
   As Ed said, the front nine is fantastic and fun but the back nine has many forced carries and do-or-die shots.  But there is some heroic golf to be had; e.g., tee shot on 11 diagonally to the top of a ridge crenellated with ominous bunkers.  17 is fun...  how often do you get a bunker in the middle of a green?  There are terrific bunkers to take pictures as well but their upkeep was lacking. I hope that's changed.
   I cannot bring myself to say anything bad about Bayside but can say that there is a definite swing of balance from Charm to Challenge between the nines.  Also, the back nine is a challenge to walk with some healthy but scenic hikes.
   After my round,  I did ask the feller in the very bitchin' log clubhouse which nine most people like and he said the back.  I told him I thought otherwise and he looked dumbfounded.  Much the same look he gave me when I told him I wanted to walk.
   If you're going to Wildhorse, Bayside should not be missed.

  Ten rounds? I'd play 26 WH to 12 Bayside.

[RJ_Daley]

I'd say if you can play 10 rounds in a couple of days, play them all.

Me, WH-8 BS-2

Ed, I wonder if the same sort of phenomenon is in play at WH as we have identified about RC.  First time players say the tee balls to the ultra wide fairways aren't too worrisome and they say the greens save the course from being a knock-over.  Then, the more you play it, the more you discover and are forced to re-evaluate.

Everyone is right about the very different 9 and I really like the comment that the first 9 is a charm and the second a challenge.  The forced carries are deceiving.  While they look like they are a mile to carry, they are no more than the carries at SH, I kid you not!  However, holes 13 par 3 and 15 par 5 are klinkers, IMO.  The greens are not able to hold the approaches properly, and the bound off to the rear of both is into un-recoverable or nearly so terrain.  Of course they might have rectified some of that since I was last there 2 years ago.  But 16 short par 4, 17 bunker in the middle of green ala Riviera 6, and 18 big drive and then forced carry second across ravine to great green and fabulous clubhouse backdrop is an excellent finish, I think.  

They got cute but paid homage to the small crew that constructed the course by naming holes.  Drella's Dread was dozer operator Jack Drella's nemisis to shape up.  O'Neil's Risk and Hope is the (near) drivable 16th and I proudly have a picture of Mike O building one of the bunkers there.  Rattlesnake is where they say Jack Drella jumped off the track of his dozer onto a rattler, was bit, got back up on the tractor and finished work, while the rattlesnake withered up and died  

They should have BS's club house at Rustic, cause it is the bomb.

[Tom Ferrell]

I'd have to echo the thoughts of others.  Wild Horse 8/Bayside 2.  Again, corroborating the testimony already given, the front nine of Bayside is a good and solid test of golf.  The seventh hole, a long par-4 that has a cape-style tee shot over an arroyo, is a particularly excellent hole.  The par-3 13th got my attention as well - a 200-yard version of the Postage Stamp at Troon, which I had played just three weeks earlier.

I would actually enjoy Bayside much, much more if I could play it with friends in match-play situations.  The severity of the back nine makes it a very difficult course on which to get a medal-play rhythm established.  But there's some dramatic scenery for sure.  Also, the range there has an arroyo running through it.  I'd hate to be responsible for picking that mother.

After the rough-and-tumble Bayside experience, Wild Horse is like walking into a dream world.  The terrain is much softer and more sublime.  The hazards not near as dramatic but far more (IMO) strategic.  Wild Horse has a true links feel.  There's plenty of room and rarely are you confronted with anything resembling a heroic shot.

Upon finishing Bayside, there are plenty of shots you'd like to go back and hit.  Upon finishing Wild Horse, there are plenty of strategies you'd like to go back and try.

TOM  

[ed_getka]

Dick,
  Good call on #13 and #15 greens at Bayside. They are not set up properly to accept good shots.

I think the real difference between WH and RC is the green contouring. WH doesn't challenge the short game as much as RC. WH is a bit more demanding off the tee than RC.

[RJ_Daley]

I don't know about that Ed...  I hope I don't sound like a homer, but I probably am.  I would dare say the slowest I ever played WH in 4 years is about what we had at RC.  The greens are definitely smaller at WH than RC.  But the contour to speed ratio is higher at WH, IMO.  The wide greens surrounds of short cut fescue rather than bent (what RC wishes they could have, but can't probably due to climate) is still the factor that adds dimensions to both golf courses at the short game end.  WH having fescue allows one to see the outline of the actual putting surface from out in the FW.  But, the neat thing about RC is that the bent cut short and extended way out from the putting surface edges leaves one with that vague idea only and ties right into the excellent contour schemes of the actuall putting surfaces.  Vagueness in seeing the exact definintion of the putting surface is really a cool feature.  The green that I felt most confounded by in that regard is definitely 10.  But, leave your short game and putting game home at WH, and you might as well not even take your clubs...

[ed_getka]

Dick,
  You are a total homer. However, since you have a great course to call home I agree with what you say to some extent. The speed/contour ratio is tougher at RC. You are absolutely right that you cannot show up at WH without a short game, but I would rather show up at WH without a short game than to show up at Barona Creek or Rustic. I think the short game requirements are pretty straightforward at WH. I think Barona probably requires the most diverse short game requirements.
   WH is one of the top modern courses in my book and when you throw in the value aspect it becomes top 5.

[rjsimper]

FWIW, I  know nothing about Bayside, but re: WH vs RC, I actually think that, with a few exceptions, the contour/speed ratio was higher at WH.  Now, it might have something to do with the fact that I played WH in June, while my experience at RC is limited to Feb/March, but I found both to be equally demanding on my short game.

[Jason Hines]

Hi Mark,

Without repeating what has already been said, 8-2 WH.  I do enjoy playing Bayside but the course does not flow and I find the uniqueness of the Bayside on the back because the front plays like a short, crammed WH.  Memorable holes at BS, 8 of course. Memorable holes at WH, 15 one of the best short par fours and bunkered greens around, is there a perfect drive for that hole?  9, par three with several bunkers on the left that never come into play because most people get scared and lose their t ball in the swale on the right.  And # 6, no bunkers and all hell into a prevailing wind.

Jason Hines

[mark chalfant]

  Hey guys,


Tom, Ed, Jeff, Cory   et al


Thanks for all your help   on Bayside  !!    I like Dan  &  Daves

work and it sounds like I  need to play  this  unique  place.

[Norbert P]

 Bringing this up for Matt.

  Bayside really does have some great, dramatic and memorable stuff that I wouldn't miss if I ever make it out that way again.

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