[Wayne_Freedman]

Yesterday, I played a golf hole that continues to baffle me and ruin rounds  (#14 at San Geronimo G.C. in Marin County). It's a blind, dogleg left, par four over a hill.

I've hit very good drives that ran out of fairway on the other side and rolled into a hazard. I've hit other very good drives that  stuck a steep sidehill lie. Once in a while, the Golf God is kind to me, and my tee shot finishes in a decent place.

Aside from an aiming stick, the hole gives no indication of how to play it.

Is this fair?

What, in your opinions, distinguishes a good blind hole from a bad one?

Thanks.

[ed_getka]

Wayne,
   That is definitely a bad one. A hole that doglegs almost 90 left, and the slope is running away from you. The only good blind hole I have seen is #17 at Yale (if memory serves ). Blind drive up and over a saddle. Second shot semi-blind depending on where your drive ends up, which gives you something to think about off the tee once you have played it before. Approach is into a double plateau green. Great hole!

[Paul_Turner]

The finest blind drive I know is the 9th at Royal County Down (a Harry Colt hole).

But the courses with quirkiest and most interesting blind holes are, in my affection, Painswick and Perranporth.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=13285;start=msg226400#msg226400

[Gerry B]

Fisher's Island par 4 - 4th hole (alps / punchbowl) is the benchmark for a great blind hole . It is all world in terms of design, shot value and setting.

The tee shot on #13 at Shoreacres is also great as is the 4th at Merion East.

[TEPaul]

It's historically interesting that blindness in golf and architecture, in Britain anyway, was once thought of as a prized offering, but today it's generally condemned as a bad thing in architecture. The philosophy of blindness in golf and architecture once was that it made the golfer trust his plan and his swing without the aid of his vision.

Paul:

RCD felt to me like the mother of all blind golf courses. However, I thought holes such as #2 and #11 were more interesting generally than #9, as dramatic as that one is. #9 is a bit like Merion's #18 in that there's just too great a distance to carry to the fairway to be considered an ideal hole. The same is not so true on #2 and #11 although one may have to work on execution to get the ball up high enough and fast enough on the latter two.

[TEPaul]

Max Behr's article on Blindness in golf says a lot;

Blindness is certainly a subject we can go blind arguing about. There would seem to be no justification for it. And yet I would like to make an observation which may possibly explain the pleasure it excites with some. It is certainly true that as players of games we endeavor to prolong the time we must show our hand. We try to blind our opponent to our intent. This imposes upon him the task of anticipating our hidden purpose. Thus there is occasioned a sparring of wits aside from the mere skill required to play games. Blindness, therefore, makes a call upon intelligence. It comes down to whether the character of the deception is legitimate. The pitcher in baseball cannot make a fake pass to throw a player out at first base. That is not playing ball. Therefore, if blindness be such that we are continually decieved, it is only natural that we should object to it. But if the deception is such that we can with intelligence overcome it, then it must certainly be accounted an asset.

Blindness is the one type of hazard in golf which contains the element of mystery. If we were not all so concerned with our scores, and, instead played golf for the pleasure in playing the strokes, blindness would not be so abhorrent to us as it is today. At St. Andrews it is perhaps the peculiar blending of blindness with visibility that has intrigued one great golf after another to pronounce it THE great course. Mere skill in stroking the ball is not sufficient to solve its problems. One can play upon it year after year and never wholly fathom its secrets."

"Blindness"
Max Behr, 1926

[Alfie]

Historically, the blind shot / hole was regarded as a "test of manhood" ! Early layouts were only deemed worthy if they had at least a couple of blind shots / holes to overcome.
You also to have to bear in mind that Matchplay was foremost in the early days and I had an excellent example at Arbory's 8th hole (186 yards) which could be reached from the tee or played safe ? The "blind" factor made it a fascinating hole....for match players ! Although it played it's part in strokeplay Too !

As TEP says, blindness tends to be frowned upon in modern golf course archtecture. Whether the hole Wayne refers to is fair or not is debatable. But regarding the blind factor in general, I would say that if life was fair - then I would deem the blind shot / hole unfair ?

Alfie

[TEPaul]

Just consider how unfortunate it would be--and how weakened these courses would be without;

NGLA's #1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 16, 17.

Shinnecock's #10

PVGC's #2, #4, #8

CPC's #8

Maidstone's #1, #8!!, #9

TOC, RCD, Portrush, the list is endless!

[Alfie]

Wayne asked ; "What, in your opinions, distinguishes a good blind hole from a bad one?"

........

A good blind hole is there - a bad one isn't !

Alfie

[TEPaul]

A bad blind hole is one Palmer and Co built in the Pittsburgh area. It's a par 5 and the second shot is completely blind over an enormous hill to what turns out to be a narrow and diagonal fairway (from the second shot approach). Nothing all that wrong with that except on the near side of the fairway Palmer placed the cart path and on the far side of the diagonal fairway a water hazard. Now that combination is just plain dumb!!

[A_Clay_Man]

The aspect that sounds horrendous, is the hazard that Wayne mentions. As I read it, the cant of the fairway throws the ball towards this hazard.
Is that correct, Wayne?

LAguna Nigel's Monarch beach has such a hole, if I recall?

What i find odd about those who don't enjoy blindness, is that while a person is in the act of striking the ball, they aren't focused-in on what's ahead.

I loved the subtle way Ross used the old lake's edge, to create a blindness, on one of the backnine holes at Beverly.

#6 at Pebble really shines with at least a cloud to aim.

#8 at CPC isn't just blind, it is also confusing.

Trust, seems like a key variable and may be why a majority of modern golfers detest the test..

[Wayne_Freedman]

Adam,

Yes, the slope throws the ball down toward the hazard, in front of which (I neglected to mention), is cement cart path. In the past, the supt has:

a.) Grown long rough as a means to stop balls (which you can no longer find)

b.) Installed a truly ugly, orange, perforated plastic fence.

Worth noting:

 Yesterday I played another blind hole, the 7th at Adobe Creek (done by Kyle Phillips). But, it wasn't blind originally. I'll spare the details, except to say that the hole had an exquisite strategic design, made more exciting by how a golfer could stand on the tee, see the landing area, and visualize the shot. Now, however, a mountain of shrubbery from an environmental area rises directly in front of the tee box, obiliterating the golfer's view. I don't think this was intentional, and find it really disconcerting.

So now, in addition to hitting a difficult tee shot (a  cut, with ob left and a barranca to the right), you can't even visualize it.

My buddy, John Sheehan, thinks this makes the 7th a better hole.
I'm not so sure.

[David_Tepper]

Wayne-

I live in SF and know both of these blind tee shots.

The tee shot at San Geronimo #14 is perplexing for sure, one that I have never  solved. Theoretically, I think the correct play is hitting a high draw off the tee with a 3-wood, but theory and practice are far apart in my game.  On the other hand, the green site on #14 is just spectacular, far and away the best visual on a course that has plenty for the eye to see.

You are also right about #7 at Adobe. The vegatation from the creek bed on the right is so fully grown, the tee shot there is almost blind like the Road Hole at St. Andrews! In moments of despair, I think the best way for me to play the hole is 5-iron, wedge, wedge and hope to one putt.

DT    

[Wayne_Freedman]

David,

For such a problematic hole, I would agree  that 14 green at San Geronimo is extremely  attractive, and this on a course with some beautiful views. It makes an ultra-satisfying par.

I used to be a member there...have hit 1 irons, drivers, 3-woods,
almost everything but a putter, with no consistent payoff.
It seems to me that they forced the hole into the course.
I've wondered if it might be just as interesting as a short par 4, with the tee box placed on the other side of the hill. Or, if  the 14th might have merit as a par 3, with golfers hitting  tee shots from the top of the hill, although that would make it a very demanding hole.

Unfortunately, either case would require a long walk from the 13th green. Worse, as a par 3, it would give S.G. three par 3's in a row, and, of course, we couldn't have that. Another example of convention usurping the landscape.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

There's some fairway before the blind summit at RCD's 9th.  You can lay up.

[Tommy Williamsen]

There is something nice about seeing a drive land.  At the same time there is something exciting and anticipatory about walking over a rise and seeing where the ball is.  A couple times a round it is fun.  Anymore and it is overdone, with the exception of old links courses where I fully expect blind shots.

[Wayne_Freedman]

True about the anticipation.
But a bummer when you don't find
your ball and must estimate a drop or,
worse, return to the teebox and hit
again, much to the consternation of
'that group' playing behind.

The 7th at Adobe is already
a slow hole, and mandates
play from a drop area.

To me, that takes the fun out of it.


 

[A_Clay_Man]

Wayne- I'd be cautious claming all blindness as bad. (not that you have) It's a slippery slope, and before you know it, you (average Joe) could consider all blindness as bad, and that is just not the case.

 David Tepper has the right attitude in thinking that he has yet to figure the correct play of the hole.

But I will always agree, that the cart path and water hazard long, on the Geronimo hole, sounds horrible.

[Wayne_Freedman]

Adam,

No, this was about identifyng good/bad characteristics
of blind holes.
I don't think all blind shots are bad.
There are plenty of fun ones. In the right time and
place, they can give a player a helluva advantage.  
Speaking personally, I can appreciate blind shots, even
if I'm not a  big fan of them.
The ones I dislike the most are uphill shots
into blind, severely sloped greens.

But that's another topic, entirely.
And this post appears to have
spawned other discussions related
to blindness, so that's all good.

[Doug Siebert]

Wayne,

Like they say, a hole is only blind once.  It sounds like the hole in question would still be a bad hole even if you had full visibility.  You are laying blame for its problems on its blindness, but that is just because a bad hole is made more frustrating when you don't know the result of your shot until you arrive, or possibly lose a ball because you aren't sure exactly where to look for it.

[TEPaul]

"Tom
There's some fairway before the blind summit at RCD's 9th.  You can lay up."

Paul:

Is there really? I didn't notice that at all and I walked right over the hill a couple of times. That is a truly magnificent golf hole but I view it the same way I view the 18th at Merion East---the tee shot is just a super high demand situation with no option to hitting the ball a pretty significant distance if one starts to factor in some serious wind in one's face as of course one must in certain conditions.

I look at that as a bit of a desing glitich on both holes but I wouldn't suggest that anything be done to either hole except ask that the club really stay on top of the weather conditions with the tee markers they use.

The potential for stroke play disaster on both holes even in quality tournaments is very high.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

If you have that 500 Greatest Holes in the World book, it has a pic showing that fairway.

[THuckaby2]

Interesting... I just played the hole in question a few weeks ago.  And Wayne and David are right - there really is no "good" way to play this hole.  But I concur with Doug Siebert - the problem isn't that the shot is blind, the problem is that it cants so severely away and toward the hazard that one never has any idea how one's shot ended up, and given the odd cant one typically has a good general idea where to look for it, but there are also some weird humps on the side of the hill that can kick the ball the other way, so you are NEVER really sure!  It's also a problematic hole to play by the rules.  If you lose a ball, the assumption is it went into the hazard, but you never are really sure... As opposed to #9 at RCD, where the area over the hill is flat... and you are able to track the line... so if you're ball is headed wayward, you know for sure to play a provisional...

And David and Wayne are right also - the green on #14 at San Geronimo is lovely.

So what we have here is a strange golf hole, very troublesome, but that would be made fun and doable simply with the presence of a forecaddie.  Of course they won't provide such for everyday play, but I'd assume if I played a tournament there, such would be present.  In normal everyday play, well... either send someone up ahead to watch, or just leave it to the golf gods and if the ball doesn't show up, assume it went in the hazard.

I like the hole.

But I LOVE others at this golf course... #11 is fantastic... 12 is pretty darn great... 8 and 9 are very cool... 18 is weird and quirky but very fun... my problem is when I play that course, I find myself screaming a certain Native American name before every shot... others do as well... it's darn hard to concentrate.

 

[Gary_Nelson]

#8 at Pebble Beach is a good blind tee shot.  The landing area is generous to the left side.  The ocean is in in play on the right side if you hit too long.   Hit it just long enough and just right enough and your approach shot is much easier/shorter.

There is an aiming point (a chimney on a house) so even the first time player has a target.  All this adds up to a good blind hole for me.

[michael j fay]

I counted 19 blind shots at Tobacco Road. Not a horrible course excepting that the blind tee shot on 16 could kill someone in the group ahead.

I think Tommy Armour said that a hole is only blind once.
Note: Tommy Armour was blind in one eye when he won the US Open and the Open Championship.

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