[TEPaul]

Ian:

I'd like to see the 14th at Scranton reworked back into the concept it once was. Obviously things would have to be reworked some because of the distances today, but all the room is there on that hole. The cart path would need to be moved from where it is now.

And alternate fairway hole I'd love to see restored is PVGC's #17 but to make the old right alternate fairway work well again it'd probably need to be extended maybe fifty or more yards past the present left fairway and a whole lot of trees need to come down on the right.

[johnk]

I think Mark Fine and Shivas have it right.   They rarely work.

Where are the alternate fairway holes on the classic courses?  Perhaps The Old Course, #2??  

Generally on modern courses, you see them with some kind of creek down the middle, or perhaps fit into a canyon with the unusable middle as the divide...

Why don't we often see the separating creek meander both horizontally and vertically across a single wider fairway?  Carnoustie #17 and #18.  Wente Vineyards has something like that.  I think that's more playable and variable due to wind.

[Tom_Doak]

Ian,

I am not generally a fan of the side-by-side fairway holes, because I believe the strategy is often backwards from what it should be ... the guy who can make a long carry gets the best of them, while the shorter hitters are stuck with a second shot which emphasizes their weaknesses.

I have designed a few, and I try to do it the other way around.  At the project we're currently building in Washington, we have a split-fairway hole, the par-5 15th.  It's 500 yards and downwind so it should be fairly simple to reach in two, but to do so we are making you carry a small creek about 230-240 yards on the direct line to the green, and the fairway in that zone is relatively narrow.  You can also play the hole longer out to the left, but I deliberately cut the fairway off at about 285 yards on this line [where the creek runs into a lake].  The short hitter plays it as a simple 3-shot hole with wide landing areas and a small carry over the creek for his second; the long hitter has to go for the difficult carry and flirt with the stream if he wants to be rewarded for his length.

Sorry I don't know how to provide a diagram here.

[Tom_Doak]

PS  Talking Stick has a couple of really good alternate fairway holes.

[TEPaul]

"I am not generally a fan of the side-by-side fairway holes, because I believe the strategy is often backwards from what it should be ... the guy who can make a long carry gets the best of them, while the shorter hitters are stuck with a second shot which emphasizes their weaknesses."

TomD:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying there. What is it that the shorter hitter is getting stuck with on the second shot that emphasizes his weaknesses?

[TEPaul]

redanman:

I was never a big fan of the 15th at Seminole but reflecting back over the years the reason why has occured to me only in the last 5-6 years. It all really had to do with that series of palm trees that lined the bunkering that separated the left and right fairways. I don't know if they're still there but they are something that never should've been on that hole---as they pretty much corrupted the play and strategy of anyone who took the long route around to the left. It forced those players to go way out to the left on their second shots making the third shot way too long and not very interesting. One could certainly try to hit it through that line of palms but what's the purpose of that and few tried?

But good players almost never played down the left--although almost all the short hitters and ladies did. The tee shot on that hole is into the prevailing wind and if it was strong even good players had to be careful not to go too far right on that right fairway (it does have a subtle diagonal that isn't very noticeable from the tee) or they'd be in the water.

In concept that alternate fairway to the left really isn't bad, but those palm trees just ruined it!

Another interesting facet of that hole is with today's technology if those palm trees were not there along that bunker line some good and really long players just might try to hit it over those separating bunker and out onto the left fairway left of the next pond.

Here's a little triva for you. They used to have a famous pro-am at Seminole that all the best in the world seemed to colme to. On #15 Snead drove the ball through the right fairway into the second pond and was forced to drop his ball where it FIRST crossed the first water hazard and NOT where it last crossed the second harzard (the second pond).

[Bill_McBride]

John K, unless you can blow the drive over the Principal's Nose, #16 on the Old Course also plays like a split fairway.  Jack Nicklaus says the play to the right of the PN, over toward the OB, is "strictly for amateurs."  The angle from the left brings the Wig bunker into play, but the tee shot left is a whole lot safer!

[MikeJones]

"I am not generally a fan of the side-by-side fairway holes, because I believe the strategy is often backwards from what it should be ... the guy who can make a long carry gets the best of them, while the shorter hitters are stuck with a second shot which emphasizes their weaknesses."

TomD:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying there. What is it that the shorter hitter is getting stuck with on the second shot that emphasizes his weaknesses?

TomP, I'm not 100% sure this is what TomD meant but my take on it is this.

In this example, The long hitter (red) aims down the left to the alternate fairway and if successful leaves a straight in shot to the green with a short iron.

The shorter hitter (white) with no alternative but to hit down the right fairway is left with a very difficult long shot over the edge of the bunkers if he is to make the green in two. His lack of power and length make hitting the green in two all but impossible from this angle, thereby emphasising his weakness. His smart play might be to lay up short left (blue) and hope for an up and down.

[Paul_Turner]

How about the 8th at Brancaster?  Not a split fairway for the drive, but the second shot can be, for the short hitter or with a strong head wind.  Best hole in England.

[ian]

Paul,

Please post a photo or describe what makes this hole so good.

Ian

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Lynn, I liked 15 at Riveria as well. It looked like the right side was the better path but I only played one round.

[Doug Siebert]

I tend to go along with Don Mahaffey....what's wrong with having two alternate strategies that are made as equal as possible?  If the green complex is tricky enough, just pin position (if known/visible from the tee) might make you want to change sides.  If not, wind or the pattern of shots you happened to be hitting on a given day might make the difference.

I think it'd have to be frustrating to be a short hitter playing courses with all these dual fairway options that aren't options for you.  Vary it up a bit if you want unequal options.  Maybe one fairway is 40 yards wide with little trouble but won't offer you a flat lie or gives you a semi blind approach, while the other side is only 25 yards wide with a couple nasty deep fairway bunkers but its dead flat and gives you a downhill shot into the green so everything's in front of you for the approach.


MikeJones,

I'm not sure what the reason is for the longer hitter to go over the bunkers in your example.  Yes, it offers a better angle of approach but you have to carry the fairway bunkers so a mishit will screw you, and hitting the wrong line and hitting it "too good" will put you through the fairway.  If you hit as far as that red line I think its a better play to go down the right side anyway and just play over or fade around those greenside bunkers.  Of course the way I hit some days I might just aim at the furthest bunker down the centerline and hope I don't hit it straight

[paul cowley]

....i think the most balanced examples occur when the better player is not rewarded with a easier second shot , but one possessing a different shot value that  further challenges his skill level .......while the less skilled player has an easier [but generally longer ] route tee to green .
....the best strategic holes are ones don't that rely on penalty stroke hazards.[well ,maybe OB  ]

[Mike Benham]

I tend to go along with Don Mahaffey....what's wrong with having two alternate strategies that are made as equal as possible?  If the green complex is tricky enough, just pin position (if known/visible from the tee) might make you want to change sides.  If not, wind or the pattern of shots you happened to be hitting on a given day might make the difference.

I know that that #3 at Rustic Canyon is not by definition a split fairway but it does provide for alternate fairways to approach the green.

David M. suggests that there are hole locations when playing from the left fairway are advantageous.  Throw in the opportunity to drive the green and you have many options, risk and reward.

Mike

[TEPaul]

In theory anyway, the 12th hole of Rustic Canyon was supposed to be one where a smart golfer played down one or the other side of an enormous wide open fairway. It certainly isn't a split or side by side fairway that has any penalty for any golfer on the tee shot but the green itself, depending on the particular pin position, was supposed to cast all the strategy back to the golfer on the tee. I never knew whether the idea was supposed to be that the golfer on the wrong side may struggle to make par somehow (as is true of some fairway positions on Riviera's #10) or basically just give up his best angle to make birdie or perhaps a little of both. All I said to Geoff is the green really does have to cast strategic meaaning all the way back to the tee shot somehow because the fairway sure doesn't and that was supposed to be the wrinkle or the sophistication of the hole! The whole idea was to make golfers think more in a "whole hole" strategic context by removing any immediate risk/reward on the tee shot alone! I guess this was supposed to be the ultimate in an "indirect tax" hole. There was even talk that the fairway was so big and wide and open and the hole so short that it might almost make the golfer "smell a rat"!

[Tom_Doak]

Mike Jones,

Thanks for trying to illustrate what I was talking about.  You're pretty close, except that on most of these holes, the long hitter who can make the carry gets the straighter route home, while the short hitter has to go out and make it a longer hole, with his second shot over bunkers to a green on an unfavorable angle.

I did a diagram of one of these in The Anatomy of a Golf Course ... the 13th at Desert Highlands.

What I want to know is, if these holes are so invaluable, why don't all the great old courses have them?  I know there are occasional examples, but nothing near as frequent as architects build today.

[texsport]

Ian,

I am not generally a fan of the side-by-side fairway holes, because I believe the strategy is often backwards from what it should be ... the guy who can make a long carry gets the best of them, while the shorter hitters are stuck with a second shot which emphasizes their weaknesses.

I have designed a few, and I try to do it the other way around.  At the project we're currently building in Washington, we have a split-fairway hole, the par-5 15th.  It's 500 yards and downwind so it should be fairly simple to reach in two, but to do so we are making you carry a small creek about 230-240 yards on the direct line to the green, and the fairway in that zone is relatively narrow.  You can also play the hole longer out to the left, but I deliberately cut the fairway off at about 285 yards on this line [where the creek runs into a lake].  The short hitter plays it as a simple 3-shot hole with wide landing areas and a small carry over the creek for his second; the long hitter has to go for the difficult carry and flirt with the stream if he wants to be rewarded for his length.

Sorry I don't know how to provide a diagram here.

The Quarry@Giants Ridge #13 uniquely rewards a shorter, more accurate layup. The end of the higher, left fairway is no more than 220 yds from the back tees and plays much shorter than that with a tail wind as the tee is extremely elevated.

The left layup must be accurate both directionally and for distance to be rewarded with the position A for the 2nd shot.
The left fairway is classic target golf with rough left, right and long with a fairway bunker that extracts at least one shot if you hit it or it's surrounding rough.

The long hitters get the best of it on this hole only if they can drive the green. From the back, elevated tees, it's 323 yds., which is equivalent to a flat land carry of 270 yards+. The penalty for failing in an attempt to drive the green is an unplayable lie, and/or, lost ball.

I think this hole is one of the most cleverly devised short par 4's and split fairway holes around.

[johnk]

You know, I just thought of a split fairway hole that I like because it challenges you on the tee everytime, and you can decide to go one way or another based on how you are swinging.  It's on a golden-age era course...

Stanford #12, with 2 trees as the divider.  ~445 yds, downhill tee shot. If you haven't seen it in awhile, there is one giant oak about 300yds out, and a smaller
oak about 260.

Tee choices are:

- Go fairly well left.  Leaves very long shot thru narrow lane to green that's bending left.  Lots of room, but not the A position.

- Aim at trees with slight cut.  Right side slopes away to lateral hazard.  Effective good landing area is on right side about 20yds wide.  Best angle in, but hard to get far enough, easy to slide into rough or worse.

- Get stuck behind trees and have to manufacture something.

So it is a side-by-side alt fairway situation that works great IMHO.  Of course when my dad saw it he exclaimed: "What the
hell are they doing with those trees there!?"

[Mark_Guiniven]

[ian]

Mark,

Thanks for that illustrated post. That is a very facinating version of the split fairway that I am interested in exploring further.

I'll be honest, I had, and still have, no desire to design a hole with a side by side split fairway unless it "so obvious even I get it "

I have always been interested in alternate routes and the angled versions of these holes. After a recent discussion about the side by side fairways, I was very curious if a second example as clever as Riviera, could be found. The jury is still out.

Ian

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:

I haven't played the tenth hole at Apache that many times, so I can't really answer how well it has worked.  [Now that both fairways have good grass in them, it will help.]

We originally designed the hole as a dogleg left across the wash, but we added the left-hand fairway because we thought the short hitter would not be able to make the initial carry to the right-hand fairway.  The left-hand route is shorter, but pretty narrow with desert and the wash to the sides, so not many people try it.

From the back tee, the angle isn't the greatest to the left-hand fairway either; you have to hit a good draw to play far enough to get to the green.

[Paul_Turner]

Ian, I think there's a drawing of Brancaster's 8th in Anatomy of a Golf Course...it will be called Royal North Devon.

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