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TEPaul

George:

Probably not. Situations like that need only pass two tests--eg did the act constitute:

a. Testing the condition of the hazard?
b. Improve the lie of the ball?

The rules of golf in situations like that are only designed to provide certain tests so each situation can be determined individually and uniquely to its particular circumstances. The rulesmakers have always done that on purpose figuring if they tried to do otherwise they could fill up a large library with decisions---something they never want to do.

I'm going to get you a great little book called "The Principles Behind the Rules of Golf" by Richard Tufts, published in 1960. It explains why the rules are the way they are and in some cases how they got the way they are. In a way that little book is still the USGA's little bible on rules theory and logic.

JohnV

George, as Tom said, as long as the player didn't test the condition or improve the lie of his ball there would be no penalty.  I once was standing in a bunker waiting to hit a shot while the slowest player in Oregon was hitting his and accidentally dropped my wedge in the sand.  The officials on site as well as others I've asked all felt that it was no penalty.

The rules allow you to place your clubs in the hazard as long as you don't test the condition so accidentally falling and dropping your club seems ok also.

TEPaul

George:

As you can see from the logic and procedure of rule 13-4 it certainly is possible that someone could be penalized for slipping and falling into a bunker. In that case he obviously wouldn't have passed the a and b test.

One of the oddest 13-4 violations I ever saw was with Hal Sutton who tried to hit a long shot from just behind a water hazard over the hazard to the green. His ball didn't quite make it and landed in the very far side of the hazard probably 230 yards away. Sutton had gotten a considerable amount of mud on this clubfacel and he stuck his clubface in the water to wash off the mud and was penalized.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
As we get closer to the toon-a-mint, more questions are being answered.  For instance, they are backing off the opening hole yardage, reducing from 492 to 408.  The narrowed areas have reportedly been widened slightly this week.  My concerns about crowds in the dunes and folks falling on steep embankments is being addressed and circulation of crowds is being planned in great detail.  With the huge amphitheater around the 9th and 18th, I wonder if that will become a huge negative, or create the biggest thrill ever... ;) ;D

By Rob Schultz
August 8, 2004

HAVEN -- Poor William Henry Harrison. He was elected President of the United States, but got sick during his inauguration, died a month later and was buried before he got a chance to prove himself.

Listen to enough critics of Whistling Straits and you'll start believing that the audacious links course on the shores of Lake Michigan is destined to become the William Henry Harrison of major golf championship sites.

The course isn't ill, but many of the golfers who've played it are already sick of it and its tight fairways, thick rough and rugged trap-and dune-filled landscape.

They've joined many other critics who have tried to bury the place even before it gets a chance to prove itself during the much-anticipated PGA Championship that begins there next week.

There certainly are lots of questions about Whistling Straits as it gets ready for its inaugural major championship.

The difficulty of the layout for the golfers remains the biggest one. But there are also questions about whether the course - and the country roads leading to the remote site - is spectator-worthy.

In fact, the answers to those questions are expected to help the United State Golf Association decide whether it will give the Straits the 2012 U.S. Open Championship.

Steve Friedlander, Whistling Straits' director of golf, is confident that the Straits will produce only positive answers and live on to produce more major events.

"We're going to make this one the best major that's ever been," he said boldly. "It'll be the best championship experience for our spectators, the best championship experience for the players...and the state of Wisconsin, and we'll go from there."

Much of the media's focus heading into the tournament has been on all the time that has been spent preparing the Straits for the golfers. Friedlander, a veteran director of close to a dozen professional golf events, said it might surprise some to learn that an equal amount of time has been spent preparing the course for spectators.

He expects it to be nothing short of spectacular for fans.

Friedlander said wide, flat walkways traverse both sides of the fairways on 10 holes - and on one side of the eight other holes, which are bordered by water on the opposite side.

So, despite the Straits' somewhat lumpy terrain in certain areas - tall sand dunes dot the course - Friedlander doesn't expect an abnormal number of ankle sprains or foot injuries.

Friedlander said the walkways are actually roads that were grassed in three years ago and look like part of the landscape. All of them are parallel to the fairways and aren't far from the ropes.

"You can either walk on these roads or you walk off the road and up on to a dune and you're overlooking a fairway 10 feet away from the ropes. Either way, you've got a perfect view," said Friedlander.

He added that none of the mounds on the course that are outside the ropes are off-limits to spectators. "If somebody wants to be a mountain goat, they can climb up there," he said.

Besides its terrain, the Straits' figure-8 layout also created a challenge to make it spectator-worthy because of the potential bottlenecks where several greens or tees meet.

But Friedlander believes any congestion problems have been eliminated, which will make the Straits unique among major golf venues.

"The problem occurs when people don't have options, where the only place people can go is from point A to point B," Friedlander said. "In our case, from point A to point B, you might be able to take route 1, 2 or 3. In other majors, you only have one route. We've been fortunate to have multiple options in many locations."

Multiple options were created by reconfiguring parts of holes in at least 10 different places on the course, according to Friedlander. For instance, many of the dunes alongside the fairways on the No. 2 and No. 6 were moved to create dual road systems.

"But it didn't affect the play on the course," Friedlander added.

Golf designer Pete Dye deserves most of the credit. "He's a great visionary," said Friedlander. "The beauty of Pete is that he'll say, 'OK, I know I want to see this bunker in the background, so if we're going to move it to accommodate spectators, do we move it forward and shrink it so it doesn't look different, or do we move it back and make it bigger so it looks the same?'

"That's the kind of thing Pete does," he added. "We'd build a walkway either in front of the bunker or behind it and it wouldn't change the look of the hole."

The Straits will have grandstands at sites throughout the course. The biggest concentration of seats - in the grandstands and on the grass areas next to them - will be located around the ninth and 18th greens to create an amphitheater unique to American golf courses.

Friedlander expects around 15,000 spectators to surround the ninth and 18th greens, which could make finishing both of those difficult holes even more daunting. There will be approximately 9,000 in the grandstands, which includes no reserved seats. All are first-come, first-served.

"That's humongous," Friedlander said of the Straits' 15,000-seat amphitheater. "The British Open golf courses sometimes have that many people on both sides of the 18th fairway, but a typical 18th-hole grandstand area might hold 4,000, 5,000 or 6,000 tops."

By comparison, the grandstands surrounding the 18th green at Brown Deer Golf Course in Milwaukee may hold 1,500 people. Friedlander said a better comparison might be Milwaukee's Bradley Center.

"It's going to be like being in a stadium. Basically you are in a stadium that is on a golf course. What does the Bradley Center hold? About 19,000? We'll have 15,000 people and the players will be down below. It will be outdoors but it will be loud," said Friedlander.

"As a player walking down that fairway or approaching that green, it's going to be awfully loud."

It's going to be thrilling for spectators making noise, too.

"The golf course was designed knowing we were going to attempt (to land) major championships," Friedlander said. "Obviously, this is the first one but we're fairly confident people are going to leave the place saying, 'This is the greatest day I've ever had watching golf.' "
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

How about that---Friedlander has gone to considerable lengths to explain how Whistling Straights is a highly multi-optional golf course (dare I say strategic golf course?) for SPECTATORS!! They don't just have to go from point A to point B---they actually have 1, 2 and even 3 OPTIONS of how to do that! I hope the spectators there next week can handle all that decision making! I wonder if the same multi-optional solutions exist on the course for those actually competing in the PGA Championship?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2004, 01:07:05 PM by TEPaul »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Well there you have it!  Tom Paul invents another golf course term.  Added to the 'mantenance meld" terminology is the notion of "strategic spectator" venue.  So it seems that Dye can call his design a " spectator multi-optional, strategic" design.  :( ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

RJ:

Just think about all this for a second! I knew Pete Dye was good but I guess I never never just how good. Pete might have a "jigsaw puzzles within a jigsaw puzzle" type mind.

We all know Pete was one of the first two think revolutionarily and altruistic thoughts about golf's spectators--his break-through spectator mounds and stadium courses, etc!!

Now, at Whistling Straits he's offering spectators all kinds of multi-options of how to get from point A to point B. Perhaps he's even designing courses where the players can have up to 3 distinct choices of how to get themselves and their balls from their point A to their point B too, and even incorporate that into the little spectator options of viewing them conveniently and individually as they proceed through those multiple choices and strategies.

Let's say Tiger and Davis Love are playing together. I like them both immensely and let's say Davis decided on that strategy way over there to the left of the hole and Tiger way over to the right of the hole. Now I have up to 3 different ways of getting to either one to view them up close or from high on a mound or whatever! This is all incredible stuff.

Let's say redanman is with me. We all know he can't stand either Love or Woods so Pete probably designed up to 3 ways for redanman to get from point A (wherever we are at the time) to any of the multiple exits (Points F-Z) and off the course!

Dye is a damn genius! He even designed these "waste areas" where us spectators can go and where the pros might hit their balls too. This means I may actually be able to touch Tiger or Davis after they hit one of their recovery shots and unless redanman has already left the course he can even make really big footprints in any of those waste areas hoping Tiger or Davis may hit their ball into one of them!

The fact that spectators may have loads of stuff to think about and decide on and even at the end of the day to say to themselves "I really thought my way around that Whistling Straits well" is almost too much to bear it's all so cool!

Pete Dye is some kind of genius, I'll tell you, there's almost nothing he hasn't thought of!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2004, 01:41:50 PM by TEPaul »

A_Clay_Man



Keeping this going, It might effect my picks?

How and when will all the plans become finalized, or get implemented?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0


Did I ever tell you guys about the time Pete explained the whole deal to me while we were standing around on the 17th tee at the Straits? ;) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

No, but do tell. :-*

The only personal thing I know about him, is that he likes Matlock. So maybe there is something to that solving of the enigma within a conundrum, perspective?

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
From the PGA website:

"There are over 1,000 bunkers on the golf course.

All areas of the course that were designed and built as sand bunkers will be played as bunkers (hazards) whether or not they have been raked. This will mean that many bunkers that are positioned outside of the ropes as well as some areas of bunkers inside the ropes, close to the rope line, will likely include numerous footprints, heelprints and tire tracks during play of the Championship. Such irregularities of surface are a part of the game and no free relief will be available from these conditions.

All bunkers inside the ropes will be raked each morning prior to play as normal. The local rule allowing players to move stones in bunkers will be in effect. A player in doubt about whether or not his ball lies in or touches a bunker should consult a PGA of America Rules Official on the hole."

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
"This will mean that many bunkers that are positioned outside of the ropes as well as some areas of bunkers inside the ropes, close to the rope line, will likely include numerous footprints, heelprints and tire tracks during play of the Championship."

Wow, that is pretty vague.  Are the same bunkers going to be raked each day?  As long as the PGA is consistent is the main thing.  The players should know what bunkers on the course are being raked and which are not.  Non-maintained bunkers would obviously be avoided like the plague by the players.  

Can you imagine the post-round comments from guys who have to hit from footprints or tire tracks?  It could get interesting.  

Bunkers as hazards, wow, imagine the thought....

THuckaby2

er uh, shivas:  I believe the R&A allows allow the removal of stones from bunkers under their version of the rules.  It's normal over there, because they have a lot of stones in bunkers and it helps prevent club ruining.  Doesn't seem to me odd at all the PGA would allow that local rule at Whistling Straits, nor should it cause any undue delay. I'm betting the grounds crew has removed as many stones as possible from bunkers anywhere near the line of play.  

So yes, these rounds ought to take 6 hours plus, but it won't be because of this rule, methinks...

THuckaby2

I kinda dig the Schmidty Rules.   ;)

But my point is that this is a normal golf rule, no big deal at all, played all over the world, nothing to get up in arms about.  It certainly has caused no harm at THE OPEN, so there's little reason for me to believe it will at our little provincial professional championship.

TH

THuckaby2

Guess what, Tom.  The R & A does NOT allow stones to be picked from bunkers.  There is a permissible local rool, but it's not in the rools per se.

Heresy, I say!

Whoops.  OK, in the words of the great Emily Littela,

Never mind.

 :-[

TH

ps - I dig the spelling of "rool".  It ought to be used always for time like this when rules are improperly used.

THuckaby2

shivas, I get a kick out of you on a roll.  I'm sure Tom Paul is appalled at the spelling of that word, though.   ;)

But keep up the fight.

I'll be watching this week to see how this plays out, though.  Methinks the title of a Shakespeare play will end up coming to mind, and it's not A Midsummer Night's Dream.

 ;)

THuckaby2

I understand the spelling intent.  I just honestly do dig "rools."  Now "appauled," well...  ;)

I find that to be a cool typo.  Come on man, as one of my life idols, remember how much benefit of the doubt I give you.

As for your lament, oh yes that could happen.  But I'm banking on the Shakespeare play winning out.  Lots of not so likely to happen IFs are involved in your scenario.  Just as likely is idiot pro takes his drop and it ends up plugged, such that he was better off not dropping at all.  Drops in bunkers are not something to be cherished, me also thinks.

 ;)




Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Doug_Feeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
The European Tour plays stones in bunkers as moveable obstructions in all their events.  It is on their "hard card" of local rules that are used at each event.

Looking at the Champions Tour card from 2003 I see that they also play that way (or at least did in 2003).
« Last Edit: August 09, 2004, 07:26:25 PM by Doug_Feeney »

Dennis_Harwood

It's normal over there, because they have a lot of stones in bunkers and it helps prevent club ruining.  


Tom--since we are being picky-- The reason for adoption of the local Rule has nothing to do with damaging clubs (we don't grant relief because a tree trunk can be hard on clubs, do we?).

The Appendix proceeding the Rule explains why the Committee may chose to adopt it -- "..stones in bunkers may represent a danger to players (a player could be injuried by a stone struck by the player's club).."  

There were incidents in some European areas of small rocks and pebbles in bunkeres shattering when struck and causing damage to player's eyes--although the rule does not specify a "size" of stone, generally those of the size of a small marble or larger are those that create a safety risk--

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Being the wild man that I am, when I played the course I visited a number of those "out of the way" waste-bunker areas.  From what I observed, they are sort of hardpan clayey sand and I didn't see any memorable stones per se.  Just some clay-sand balls that have agregated to lumps.  I really don't know why they don't just say, through the green and ground the club as waste area everywhere, or no where.  

I'm going to go there tomorrow and scope the joint out and maybe get a few pics during the practice rounds (which is allowed) ;)   I always laugh at the odd looks I get from people when I'm laying in some contorted position trying to get a picture of some archi feature no where near the star players actually playing.  People can't fathom taking pictures of turbo boast LZs and bunker lips :P ;D

If I see ol Pete around, I'll pass along our collective GCA love... ::)

PS: Dan, unless they have remodelled the club house since last time I was there, it ain't all that...  Nice fancy shower fixtures though, no PV pie plates however....
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

THuckaby2

Thanks, Doug and thanks, Dennis.  I knew I had read somewhere that some organization over there used this rule for its events... I thought it was R&A, but for purpose of my little discussion with my pal shivas, I'll take Euro Tour.  In any case, in situations where there are a lot of stones in bunkers, it does just make sense to me to allow them to be moved.  I faced this a few times when playing over there and let's just say rule or not, the rock was gonna get moved.  Interesting I thought of risk to club before risk to life and limb, but the latter sure does make much more sense!

TH

Gary_Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
I saw this Associated Press report today on GolfWeb:

BUNKERS: There are some 1,400 bunkers at Whistling Straits, a number that is hard to verify because some of the traps are no bigger than a coffin.

In fact, there is so much sand that the gallery is forced to walk through some bunkers. If players hit into footprints, they probably deserve the lie they get because the shot will have been well off line.

The PGA of America said all bunkers will be played as hazards, meaning players will not be allowed to ground their clubs or remove loose impediments.

And if a ball winds up in a fan's footprint?

"Such irregularities of surface are a part of the game and no free relief will be available from these conditions," the PGA said.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Today, there are rakes at all the bunkers I saw that are "inside the ropes".  I have no idea what they will do at toon-a-mint time.  

It occurs to me that those thousands of irrelavant to play bunkers amongst such dramatically sharp sloped dunes, most of which have drain caps, are as much to help regulate, retain, channel or manage water events so that the interdunal areas don't become quagmires, and pour surface water runoff down onto playing areas.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

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