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T_MacWood

Re:Alice Dye and restoration
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2004, 09:44:57 AM »
TE
I’ve met Paul Richards and spoken to a number of ‘restoration’ architects. I understand how difficult these projects can be and I have great respect for their efforts. However, an appreciation and respect for their fine efforts should not prevent us from looking at the subject with a critical eye.

Pat and I are on the same page. In the past I’ve been as strong an advocate for restoration as anyone, but now due to a number of reasons (some listed on previous posts) I’m rethinking that position. If you look at the conservation, preservation and restoration philosophies in related fields—architecture, monuments, landscape architecture, fine arts, etc—you will find the emphasis is upon conservation and preservation. Restoration is looked upon with skepticism, is heavily scrutinized and is only recommended under special circumstances.

There are times for restoration of golf courses, no doubt, (and there have been some excellent ones), and there are times for redesign, but in my view when dealing with an exceptional or historical work, restoration should be examine very closely….not unlike the other arts.

We have too many architects reshaping, rebuilding, moving, flattening, redesigning, reinterpreting in the name of restoration, I’m a big fan of knocking down trees and expanding where you mow….not so big a fan of conjectural restoration and modernization of important works.  

Maybe I am a purist, hopefully I’m not the only one (I know I’m not).  But I’d also like to think I’m a realist, I realize every situation is different. I don’t have a problem with Ohio State GC looking to create (can’t restore’em since they never existed) MacKenzie bunkers where there were none, it makes sense based upon the checkered architectural history of that course (the greens are another story and thankfully they’ll not be rebuilt). I don’t have a problem with Gulph Mills mixing and matching some restoration and some redesign….looking back at that course architectural history it makes sense. I don’t believe all Ross courses should approached as you would approach Pinehurst #2, Seminole or even Aronomink. (But IMO even his lesser courses are generally excellent, and should be preserved and protected whenever possible).

My point is maybe we can learn something from architectural preservation. What is wrong with a great golf course which ages gracefully? In the past, I’ve talked about restoring golf courses to their architectural high point….should we be digging up great old golf courses which have evolved beautifully (Cypress Point, Merion, Riviera, etc) in hopes of recapturing an architectural point in history? I’m not so sure.

TEPaul

Re:Alice Dye and restoration
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2004, 11:14:12 AM »
Tom MacWood:

That, to me, is a reasonable post on restoration and/or preservation.

I too believe there are a few courses in this world that've basically earned the respect and the right to be left alone to be preserved and to age gracefully from here on out. To me the most logical choice of those few courses are ones like NGLA or Myopia, CPC etc. The reason is there's no particular reason to change them at this point. The tours or no major tournaments are going to come to any of those where the need to change them exists.

I really don't have a problem with courses like these adding some tee length if they can do it completely non-invasively because I don't think that corrupts or disfigures golf holes--but again only if totally non-invasive. But those courses I'd certainly leave their other architectural features alone, and  most certainly their greens.

I don't like to see some of the others like Merion East or Riviera or even ANGC changed as they have been but it seems nearly impossible to stop the juggernaut of the tournament associations from transforming them in the name of scoring preservation.

Of course I'm an advocate for the B&I regulatory bodies to attempt to put the genie back in the bottle with any form of equipment and distance rollback.

Distance increase alone is the engine that drives almost all redesign projects. Courses do evolve in somewhat the same way over time and are in need of "captial maintenance" from time to time. Greens have almost always shrunk, bunkers can shrink or change shape, have the look of their surrrounds change dramatically, lose their drainage and effective sanding, trees grow and need to be reanalyzed from time to time etc.

The latter things I look at as a very reasonable form of restoration.

And lastly, I do believe in the idea of improving holes, no matter where or what they are to make them play as well as they can for all if it's clear over time that they aren't or never have played as well as they clearly can or could.

In my opinion, the second half "through the green" of NGLA's #9 is definitely one of those. How to improve that hole to me is total no-brainer, and there's zero doubt in my mind the result of it would be a resounding success. I feel the same way about PVGC's #7 but I have Crump's fairly documented thoughts on it to back me up!

But there're obviously a number of purists who say that should never happen and secondly who am I to suggest such a thing. I don't care if they don't ever do it but if they did I'm convinced it would be a resounding success and I'd challenge anyone who really do know those holes to say otherwise.

But of course a purist would say an opinion like that is sacrilege. I don't believe that!

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Alice Dye and restoration
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2004, 01:07:20 PM »
And lastly, I do believe in the idea of improving holes, no matter where or what they are to make them play as well as they can for all if it's clear over time that they aren't or never have played as well as they clearly can or could.

In my opinion, the second half "through the green" of NGLA's #9 is definitely one of those. How to improve that hole to me is total no-brainer, and there's zero doubt in my mind the result of it would be a resounding success. I feel the same way about PVGC's #7 but I have Crump's fairly documented thoughts on it to back me up!

But there're obviously a number of purists who say that should never happen and secondly who am I to suggest such a thing. I don't care if they don't ever do it but if they did I'm convinced it would be a resounding success and I'd challenge anyone who really do know those holes to say otherwise.

But of course a purist would say an opinion like that is sacrilege. I don't believe that!

The dangerous thing about this is that it could set a precedent for future green committees that don't necessarily know as well as you what constitutes an improvement.

There are plenty of folks, both on here and in general, who do know how to "improve" a hole, but there are also probably a lot more whose "improvements" would in reality be destructive. These people are also likely just as convinced that their ideas are no brainer ways to improve a hole.

In fact, I don't think anyone in the past really set out to destroy or lessen golf courses, but it clearly has happened. Even folks who are thoughtful architects in their own right (the Fazios, RTJ, etc.) did things to golf courses that are almost universally now considered to have weakened the courses in question.

Overall, the most difficult issue in golf course architecture. IMO.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:Alice Dye and restoration
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2004, 04:06:12 PM »
George:

I'm sure you're right that doing something like improving the second half of NGLA's #9 or finishing off #7 at PVGC the way Crump intended to before he died suddenly might be construed as setting some sort of dangerous precedent but hopefully it could be done in such a way (the process that is) that it very well might set a precedent for how to do things right and not indiscriminately and wrong at the hands of a thoughtless green committee acting for some stupid personal reason. If either of those holes were improved that way it certainly wouldn't because I thought they should. They should simply be looked at very carefully to determine exactly why they may be better with an improvement. Get a collaboration of competent architects if necessary.

Have we really gotten to the point on here where we're too nervous to recommend something benefical because we think someone somewhere else might make mistakes on something else? I hope not!

TEPaul

Re:Alice Dye and restoration
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2004, 04:12:19 PM »
"Even folks who are thoughtful architects in their own right (the Fazios, RTJ, etc.) did things to golf courses that are almost universally now considered to have weakened the courses in question."

George:

Interestingly, I heard Tom Fazio stand up in front of about 200 people in a restoration forum in Philadelphia and admit at considerable length that he had done this on a number of golf courses. He even went into some detial about them. He also said he and his uncle had agree about 25 years ago they'd never again work on redesigning classic courses.

I think the fact that he said something like that is a start. If most of the people in the room hadn't been so surprised by the complete incongruity of what he was saying perhaps they might have asked him more about this. My recollection is no one did!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Alice Dye and restoration
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2004, 07:12:56 PM »
TEPaul,
Sure it is. That's critical alright but no matter how critical that is it's not as critical as what the membership and others thinks of what got done, no matter who it was who made the decisions.

What you're missing is: what does the club do if the membership is unhappy with the results ?
Do they leave the same group in charge and spend another 2 or 3 million the following year ?  You know, that clubs usually get bites at the apple once every 15 years or so, and once the work is done, there is no recourse, as you would suggest.
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At some point somebody's got to pull the trigger and common sense would seem to suggest the architect you hire is a pretty good candidate IF the club has bothered do their homework

That's a pretty big IF.
And, who's in charge of doing the club's homework ?
Your club was fortunate to have your services, but your services are the exception, not the rule.
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and to go out there and see what he's done and how the clubs he's worked with have gone about it!

That process won't provide you with all of the answers you seek, because you may never know the marching orders that the club gave the architect.

Just go back and reread the Merion thread and all the confusion with regard to whom directed whom to do what ?
It isn't as simple as you would indicate.  If it was, you'd never have disfigured golf courses in the first place.
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We did that with Gil. We checked out what he'd done with clubs that were somewhat like us. I know a lot of those people anyway who took their clubs through restorations with Gil (or others) before us so it sure wasn't hard talking to them about what their problems were and how they solved them. That way you learn how to not repeat the mistakes others made before you. I know a number of other architects too and a lot of people at the clubs they've done restorations on. The whole thing is a great learning process-- a real education. And it can be a whole lot different, in a number of ways than just sitting on Golfclubatlas and pontificating some unnrealistic ideal!

My experiences are in the real world, not theory.
What worked for your club may be unique to your club.
This is not a cookie cutter process, and you just don't see that.  Just look at all the clubs that have disfigured their golf course and ask yourself, where did the club go wrong ?
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God knows why so many clubs seemed to think they can't collaborate with others that've done similar projects before them. They can---my experience is those clubs are more than willing to help and collaborate with others. God knows why so many clubs assume their projects must be the first of their kind and they have to feel their way along in a vacuum on their own! It's probably because so many people think they know everything anyway. The greatest adage to me in golf course architecture is to always know what you don't know!! If you can understand and accept that educating yourself through others who've done these things before you isn't that hard!

The answer is simple, it's a matter of egos run amuck, and pride of authorship.  Clubs rarely collaborate with other clubs.
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And Gil didn't have any problem discussing with us what went on at other clubs if he felt it could help us understand the process.

Lastly, one of the primary reasons we hired Gil is he did his own shaping and he's from here. And he had both Rodney Hine and Jim Wagner either of which could act as the daily project manager. I know both those guys---I've seen them work before. I know what they do and can do. In our case we got Rodney in the first phase and Jim in the second and they were on site almost every day. This to me was key!
You were lucky, the architect you selected lives and works a few minutes from your club, but how many clubs have that luxury, that convenience.  Very few.  So you can't take the unique circumstances that applied to your club and universally assign them to every club.  It doesn't work that way.

Wasn't Ken Dye from Texas, the architect selected to do the work at Westchester ?  Do you equate the availabilty of those two architects, the one on your project to the one on Westchester's project ?
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You can throw a lot of negatives in front of the things I'm saying Pat, but if it worked out well for us, you tell me why it shouldn't work out well for other clubs?

For a variety of reasons.
Each club is unique, with a unique dynamic, and you can't equate your project with any other project.
How many courses have a Tom Paul who voluntarily researches and writes a book on the architectural history of their golf course ?   Few, if any.
Your club was just plain lucky to have your services.

By the way, for a wealthy club they certainly screwed up the golf course when they reconfigured the golf course to accomodate a practice range that they relocated, due to stupidity, smack dab in the middle of a wonderful golf course, didn't they ?

Each club and each project is different and you can't make the foolish assumptions that you've made.
You can't imbue a club with wisdom, nor does it transfer or travel well.

Your club's success was largely due to your diligence, your unselfish endeavor which consumed your time and effort, in what is typically an unrewarded and unappreciated task.

What members of other clubs are going to devote their resources and make the same sacrifices that you made for the benefit of the club, few, if any.
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TEPaul

Re:Alice Dye and restoration
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2004, 07:22:59 AM »
Pat:

Once again, it's probably better on here to try to concentrate on some positives for doing the right thing in golf architecture, including restorations, rather than to constantly point out the negatives of every single thing that's mentioned.

You said above;

"Just go back and reread the Merion thread and all the confusion with regard to whom directed whom to do what ?
It isn't as simple as you would indicate.  If it was, you'd never have disfigured golf courses in the first place."

That remark is very indicative of the discussion modus operandi on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com! Rereading the Merion threads on this website shows one thing--eg what some on this site, such as yourself, think was all the confusion at Merion about who directed whom to do what. The only confusion regarding Merion is people like you have no idea who at Merion directed whom. But the same is not necessarily true at Merion. You wanted to see their mission statement and they certainly are not going to show that to you or anyone else on this site. The fact that you don't know what their mission statement was or even if they had one does not indicate they didn't have one! Because there may have been confusion or differences of opinion on this discussion group as to what Merion was doing is no reason for you to assume there was confusion within Merion!

The planning for and carrying out of a good restoration may not be that simple but I see no reason for you to continuously try to make it even more complicate than it is. I'm looking for perscriptions and general processes for clubs to follow to effect good restorations and there's nothing at all wrong with that.

Perhaps your experiences with clubs and restorations have been riddled with ego, arguments and dissension. Have you ever stopped to think part of that may be that you argue too much?   ;)

T_MacWood

Re:Alice Dye and restoration
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2004, 09:28:23 AM »
"In my opinion, the second half "through the green" of NGLA's #9 is definitely one of those. How to improve that hole to me is total no-brainer, and there's zero doubt in my mind the result of it would be a resounding success. I feel the same way about PVGC's #7 but I have Crump's fairly documented thoughts on it to back me up! ....I don't care if they don't ever do it but if they did I'm convinced it would be a resounding success and I'd challenge anyone who really do know those holes to say otherwise."

I'm sure you are convinced. There have a number of men, like you, all with good intentions, who were convinced they could improve (through redesign) established courses like Riviera, Bel Air, Ojai Valley, GCGC, Banff Springs, Cape Breton, St. Georges, Engineers,  Pepper Pike,  Lancaster, Sea Island, Inverness, Aronomink, East Lake, Ponte Vedra, Bethpage, Quaker Ridge, Old Town, Dornick Hills, Columbia, Equinox, Mt.Bruno, CC of Detrioit, Australian, Victoria and host of others. The evidence remains for anyone to see.

We might be wise to heed the comments of A.N. Didron (1839) when considering our most precious works--like Pine Valley and NGLA:

"It is better to preserve than to repair, better to repair than to restore, better to restore than to reconstruct....in no case must anything be added."

TEPaul

Re:Alice Dye and restoration
« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2004, 01:21:02 PM »
Tom:

It seems to me what you are, or are swiftly becoming is a major golf architecture "bowdlerizer" (if you don't know what that is--it is in the dictionary). I admit, you may only be that in the singular area of what you consider to be really classic golf architecture and courses, but nevertheless.....

That attitude fits in very nicely on this website with some of the purist and preservationist sensibilities of many of Golfclubatlas's contributors. I more than support those sensibilities, as I'm sure you must be aware.

However, I'd never want to take it as far as you seem to be doing or wish to do. And that's why I see you as a serious classic golf architecture bowdlerizer.

And what I mean by that is your attitude seems to be that since some, or perhaps even so many cannot be trusted to do the right thing with some classic golf architecture that something should be done to prevent ANYONE from ever trying! To me that denys and restricts one of the most interesting aspects of all golf architecture---eg free and imaginative thought to look at it, play it and continue to make it as good as it can be!

Some of the things you and others say and imply on here seem somewhat akin to me to what happened in Salem Mass during their notorious "witch hunts". I'm tiring of endlessly hearing on here that almost everyone in these clubs are large out of control egos with personal agendas who must be stopped at all costs. Some on here have even accused some of those responsible at some classic courses as being something like the "Devil", or some other truly evil person!  ;)

While that certainly happens, wouldn't it be better, more prudent and more benefical in the long run to identify those who aren't that way, who don't do that and how and why the processes they use can make golf courses, and even classic golf courses and their architecture and maintenance and management practices even better while at the same time preserving them to look and be played as they were originally intended to be at their best? That doubtless takes a good deal of competent research, thought and execution with the goal in mind to preserve much of what an original architect may have been trying to ultimately accomplish. Many of us on here seem to know what that was on many classic courses with many of their original architects, although, again, it's safe to assume not all those, or even the majority of those who control clubs understand those things.

That's precisely what collaboration, education and advice and advocacy can accomplish!

Furthermore, on the subject of something like the second half of NGLA's 9th hole "through the green", it really does disturb me sometimes (as it does Pat Mucci sometimes) when you gratuitously say these things and promote this kind of "bowderizing" attitude about the particulars of certain holes on certain courses when you've never even been to these courses much less played those holes the numerous times it takes to begin to understand some of the things I'm talking about here.

(I really doubt that Pat Mucci, who does know NGLA would disagree with the fact that the second shot on NGLA's #9 is pretty mundane and something as simple as a narrow diagonal bunker scheme could make it so much more interesting. It appears to me from some original drawings I saw recently in Southampton that Macdonald may have been planning something like that on that portion of that hole. If he had would you still say this should never be considered?)

If you're so interesting in classic architecture, are you aware of the architectural process and principle of how historic structures can be altered or improved? That involves making whatever changes are made in such a way that if it's necessary or prudent to undo those changes the chances be made in such a way as to be able to UNDO them with ease and return them to what they were before! The reason I mention this process or prinicple is if the 9th hole was improved by such a bunker scheme and it turned out not to be an improvement putting that area of that hole back to the fairway it now is would be a snap! The improvement therefore fits in well with the accepted method of altering a classic building, for instance!

Your architectural sensibilities of preservation for certain architecture and courses are good--I support them. I just don't support the way you appear to be suggesting it should be gone about (your extreme approach to preservation)!

You seem to be forgetting that any golf course is a playing field to interact with a game now and in the future. In this way all golf architecture differs from some ulta historic building either on the outside or inside or some work of art such as the present preservation context of something like the Mona Lisa.

This would seem to be a major distinction between some of the analogies both generally and specifically you come up with. I don’t think, no matter how famous and respected some of this classic architecture becomes that any prudent mind would consider it could not be improved in various sensitive and sensible ways (if it's fairly clear it may not be functioning particularly effectively as is) and still keep it’s historic and classic value. Not unless you’re also proposing that some of these courses be shut down to play and the challenges, interest and enjoyments thereof--so they can henceforth just be viewed like some other un-interactive works of art. That’s where you’re going if you take this preservationist idea of yours to too much of an extreme, which seems to be near where you already are.

Just because some idiots somewhere else ruin architecture does not mean everyone will , and how to prevent that with the thought to everlasting improvement are the processes we’d be better served discussing on here!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2004, 01:49:08 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Alice Dye and restoration
« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2004, 09:44:35 PM »

The only confusion regarding Merion is people like you have no idea who at Merion directed whom. But the same is not necessarily true at Merion. You wanted to see their mission statement and they certainly are not going to show that to you or anyone else on this site. The fact that you don't know what their mission statement was or even if they had one does not indicate they didn't have one! Because there may have been confusion or differences of opinion on this discussion group as to what Merion was doing is no reason for you to assume there was confusion within Merion!

I was unaware that you sat in on every committtee meeting and every Board meeting at Merion regarding their golf course.

If you didn't, then you wouldn't know what happened either.

If Merion was so well prepared, so organized and so crystal clear on their mission, why did they hire, then fire Gil Hanse ?
That act doesn't seem to support your theory on their awareness of purpose, clarity of purpose and competence, does it ?
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The planning for and carrying out of a good restoration may not be that simple but I see no reason for you to continuously try to make it even more complicate than it is. I'm looking for perscriptions and general processes for clubs to follow to effect good restorations and there's nothing at all wrong with that.

I never said that there was anything wrong with that.

But, if you look back in time, the track records of clubs with respect to preserving and protecting the design integrity of their golf courses isn't so good.

Their track records would indicate that they were misguided or incompetent, or both.

I applaud restoration work, and you know that.  But, all too often, modernizations that depart from the design integrity of the golf course are forced upon a classic golf course under the guise of restoration, and that's my concern.  It is happening to a golf course that I'm familiar with, as we speak.

When you say "restoration" one cannot assume that just because a club has chosen to label their project as a "restoration', that it is a restoration, and that's the danger that Tom MacWood and I are trying to point out to you.

For every Oakmont and NGLA there are a dozen lessor known courses that get disfigured in the name of "restoration".
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Perhaps your experiences with clubs and restorations have been riddled with ego, arguments and dissension. Have you ever stopped to think part of that may be that you argue too much?   ;)

Not when I'm an outsider, disinterested party or casual observer.  But, when I'm involved, I'm not going to abandon my beliefs for the sake of political correctness, convenience or unwarranted compromise.  You either believe in certain principals, or like others you can easily abandon them when the heat or level of scrutiny gets turned up.

I prefer to stand solidly behind my beliefs, while you may prefer to float with the currents or tides.
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« Last Edit: July 25, 2004, 09:47:18 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

TEPaul

Re:Alice Dye and restoration
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2004, 01:38:40 PM »
“I was unaware that you sat in on every committee meeting and every Board meeting at Merion regarding their golf course.”

I certainly didn’t and neither did you, and that’s why I wonder why you said;

“Just go back and reread the Merion thread and all the confusion with regard to whom directed whom to do what?”

The confusion regarding whom directed whom to do what, as you said, was confusion on Golfclubatlas.com amongst people like you, not necessarily at Merion. The reasons the restoration work of Hanse/Kittleman ended at Merion had to do with 2-3 things that had very little if anything to do with Merion’s long term restoration project. I know what those 2-3 things are and you never will!   ;)



TEPaul

Re:Alice Dye and restoration
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2004, 01:45:34 PM »
"But, when I'm involved, I'm not going to abandon my beliefs for the sake of political correctness, convenience or unwarranted compromise.  You either believe in certain principals, or like others you can easily abandon them when the heat or level of scrutiny gets turned up.

I like that Pat! That's one of the finest and most elaborate euphemisms I've ever seen for the simple fact that you argue too much!    ;)

TEPaul

Re:Alice Dye and restoration
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2004, 01:54:05 PM »
I don't abandon my beliefs at all and I virtually never argue in those endless committee meetings to do with my course's architecture. All I do is come dressed in a nice suit---I listen very quietly to what everyone has to say, then I very slowly unbutton my jacket, take out my .45 and lay it very calmly on the table and say in a very low and measured voice;

"EVERYTHING I've just heard is total crap, and now I'm going to tell you EXACTLY the way it's going to be!"

My success rate is just about in line with that old joke of the guy in the bar who turns to the beautiful girl next to him he's never seen before and asks her if she'd like to get laid!
« Last Edit: July 26, 2004, 01:54:55 PM by TEPaul »

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