Hamilton by Colt or Thompson's St Georges

[mark chalfant]

For anyone lucky enough to have played both, which one of
these Ontario courses do you prefer ?  If possible please
describe routing, terrain and other notable qualities. Thanks

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

I am a member of Hamilton and have a biias.
These are two of the best old style traditional golf courses in the world!
Hamilton is by HS Colt and has beautiful, rolling terrain with mature forest areas.
There are 27 holes at Hamilton, 18 by Colt and 9 by CE Robinson.
Colt routed the West and South nines across the valleys which makes for some interesting lies and uphill and downhill shots.
The Canadian Open was held there last September and the pros raved about the course.

St George in Toronto by S Thompson is on a similar property, but Stanley routed the course through the valleys rather than crossing them as Colt did at Hamilton.
Ian Andrew with Doug Carrick is carrying out a beautiful restoration of the course, bringing back some of old bunkers that  had been filled in, and adding some for the modern ball.

They are both must plays.

[ian]

I'm with Dick, play them both.

Hamilton should probably be in the world's 100 greatest, its that good. It suffers from not being in a major city, and more importantly, being in Canada.

St. Georges is a must if you want to learn about Thompson, the routing is especially clever as Dick mentioned above.

It is quite possible to play both in one day with planning, they are 60 minutes apart.

[Jeff_Mingay]

What Ian and Doug and superintendent John Gall have recently accomplished with the greens and bunkers at St. George's should serve as an example to all Canadian clubs with classic courses.

The bunker restoration is faithful to an invaluable set of historic photos of the course taken shortly after it opened in 1929. And Gall has done an excellent job of reclaiming lost putting surface area over the past few years, too.  

Other than a few really bad tee extensions (see the par 3 sixth in particular!), instigated by a membership obsessed with pushing the course over 7,000 total yards (?), recent work completed at St. George's has truly been restorative-based.

Dick: Hamilton should follow St. George's lead!

Colt's excellent routing, over one of the neatest pieces of ground for golf I've come across, is basically intact. But the look and position of bunkers have changed dramatically over the years, along with several greens. Right?

The club has Colt's original drawings on display in the clubhouse, and some very useful historic photos that show the original style of the bunkers (steep, grass-faced pits, typical of Colt's heathland work). On a few drawings, Colt actually wrote: "gouge sand pit from hillside" (or something to that effect). You can clearly see the remains of a number of original bunkers, now grassed over, throughout the course. Restoring them would be simple. And it would undoubtedly return an old-world look and feel at Hamilton.

Both Hamilton and Toronto originally exhibited a heathland look, unique to North American golf. Unfortunately, both courses have since been "cleaned up". They were a lot more authentic in the past.

Properly "restored", I think both St. George's and Hamilton could be world top-50.  

[Paul_Turner]

I need to see Hamilton and Toronto soon, to expand my Colt research; they were very important courses for him.  Toronto is pretty early in his resume.

Which greens, and to what degree, were changed at Hamilton.  Looked a cool course on TV.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Paul,

Yes, Hamilton is a very cool course. (So is Toronto.) I only think it could be so much better still!

Dick Kirkpatrick knowns more than I, but I'll take a stab in the dark at which greens have been modified. For the fun of it.

I believe three green was rebuilt by Tom McBroom, along with the seventh. The fourth was moved and redone after Colt's time. Nine has been changed (there are three little, shallow bunkers on the right side of the green that appear to be located where putting surface once was! They're very awkward, in my opinion. Definitely not Colt's work).

I also suspect there were some changes made to the fifteenth and sixteenth holes when Robinson added his nine hole course during the mid 1970s. Is this correct, Dick? Sixteen green apears to have been redone.

[mark chalfant]

Dick, Ian, and Jeff  thanks for your help.

Dick K: I appreciate your description of how Harry traversed  the valleys at Hamilton. What are some of your favorite holes at Hamilton ? Also your veiw of Ancaster's "most fun" putting surfaces

Ian, congratulations on the project you accomplished at St.  Georges.

Jeff, is Colt"s Toronto worth a look ?

[henrye]

Mark.  I have not played Hamilton, but I am told it is the better of the two.  I have played St. George's a couple of times and while I think it's a fine course, I never felt it was particularly special.  As for Toronto, it truly fells like you are playing the exact course that was laid out over one hundred years ago.  It is a traditional parkland layout, but has absolutely nothing in common with any modern layouts.  It feels like a piece of history preserved.

For me, the experience of playing St. George's will remind you of many parkland layouts.  While I will concede that the course itself is better than Toronto, the experience at Toronto will be far more unique (from a historical course perspective - if that makes sense).

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

In 1973, Hamilton (Ancaster) commissioned CE Robinson to add a new nine.
To accomplish this, and to the disdain of many members, the wonderful short nine was compromised.
The first hole of Robbies nine (East) cut across two of the short holes and then used the 15th green of the original course. (Now 7 South)
A new green was built for 15 (7 south) and new teeing grounds were constructed to retain the length of the original hole.
Most of Jeff's comments on the other changes are correct except that Tom Clark of Ault Clark is responsible for the present 3rd and 7th greens.
McBroom did rebuild 7 green before Clark was retained.
I would also like to see some of the original bunkering reinstated and some of the recently re-constructed bunkers made more penal with grass walls.
It is a dream of golf purists to take these courses back to heathland layouts, in my opinion it can never happen, in fact, Hamilton would be quite dangerous with the new distances the ball travels if the trees dividing some of the holes were removed.
Hamilton started planting trees (forests) shortly after it was constructed, and some say that Colt provided the plans for planting, placing trees in groups according to species, which is  quite obvious even to-day.
Some holes have been ruined by the planting of trees on the inside of the dog-leg (7 West for example) which had the green visible from the tee when Colt built it.


During the Open last year, the men's membership was hoping that the PGA would allow the pin (cup) loacations to be used that we use for CC's and inter-clubs, but I guess we did'nt want to see the pros 3 and 4 put.
Some greens where this is possible and are some of my favourites are West 5,7 and 9. Also South 10, 11, 12, 13, 17 and 18.

[Danno]

I like St Georges... I like the hills and valleys.. in some ways it reminds me of the holes that have severe hills at Interlachen in Mn ( in my mind) .. . I think McBroom is a member there as well. Carrick and McBroom happen to be one of a handful that I would have build me a course in the States. I love their work! If in Canada try to play some of their courses if you have time.  St Georges wins the clubhouse award... I have a photo of the 18th green/clubhouse, with me standing in the photo blocking the view.. if someone can tell me how to post it shows the bunkering and clubhouse.  ( I also found some photos of a colt-alison design, 1924,  Davenport CC in Iowa, can send those to have posted as well ).

[ian]

Paul,

Two really great Colt's and a very intact Alison. They have all said they will host you, get in the car man, what's keeping you!

Jeff,

There is 9 Colt greens remaining with only 8 in play on the "origional" 18. Origionals (I think) are 5,6,8,9,10,14,1 east(old 15), 16,17. Dick please correct any error.

13 is one of my all time favourite holes, but it was not an origional. William Diddle did many of the early rebuilds, of which the club has full records.

Dick you are a lucky man, although for all the courses you built, you deserve it.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

That's right, I do recall hearing that Bill Diddle did some work at Hamilton.

As for original Colt greens, sixteen doesn't "seem to be" original to me. It borders Robinson's first, which leads me to believe there could have been some change to sixteen when the new nine was added. Dick?

And nine green is messed up. Again, it seems to me the area where those little "pot" bunkers on the right are was originally putting surface.

There are indeed a number os WORLD-CLASS holes at Hamilton, including 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 17, and 18! That's not bad, eh! Eleven of eighteen holes = world-class!

Last, I don't think you need to cut down any "protective" trees in order to restore a heathland sensibility at Hamilton, Dick. Sunningdale, for example, is quite heavily treed these days and still possesses a rugged, natural, heathland look. Simply restoring the bunkers at Hamilton to their original style and locations would go along way to achieve that goal.  

The bunker inside the turn at number one, for example. The bunkers in the hillside, short off the second tee. The short bunker off the tee at the fifth. And so on...

[Bruce_Dixon]

Dick;

I'm curious to know what you mean by 'purists (wanting) to take these courses back to heathland layouts' and what would be involving in doing so?  Jeff seems to imply that it involves changing the 'look' of the course.

Bruce Dixon

[Jeff_Mingay]

Sorry to butt in here, Bruce. But, that's exaxctly what I'm implying. It's about changing the look of the golf course, to once again reflect Colt's typical aesthetic.  

From what I've gathered, Colt preferred a rugged, natural looking golf course. Hamilton is too clean these days. Particularly the bunkers, which are amoeba-shaped, edged, relatively shallow, and filled with imported white sand.

I don't think many trees have to come down at Hamilton to restore a heathland look. The course could stand to lose a few, here and there, but generally, Hamilton is pretty wide open still. Comparatively anyway.

Restoring the look of the bunkers (simple shapes, rugged, deep, grass-faced) though, and reinstalling those originals (short off the tee for example) that have been grassed over since Colt's time would provide that heathland sensibility. And also converting peripheral rough areas to native grasses to cultivate that "heathland texture".

Imagine!  

[Jeff_Mingay]

Like so many great old courses, Hamilton has simply become more generic over the years. It's lost a lot of its authenticity.

Should future work at such courses aim to make them more the same, or more unique? That's the question.

[Robert Thompson]

I know what Jeff is saying about the bunkers, but I don't really think they detract too much at Hamilton. The course is so spectacular that I don't see why it isn't in the top 100 in the world. It is certainly better than some I've played that are on the list. I'd take a round at Hamilton over a round at Oakland Hills any day of the week. Hamilton is likely the best course in Canada -- it has the interesting land of Highlands Links, but the conditioning of a Toronto private track. Its got elevation,a  short par four, beastly 9th and 18th holes and some tremendous par threes.

That said, St. George's is excellent as well. Ian's bunker work there is top grade -- something that will get recognized over time. St. George's still has a couple of weaknesses -- the crazy third green, the short par five fourth -- but largely has to be considered one of Thompson's gems. Probably under-recognized because it is in Canada and not New York state.

Robert

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Jeff:
The 16th green at Hamilton was always the sixteenth, but before the east nine was built, the golfers played to the present east one green (original 15) and then walked left to go to the 16th tee (which is still visible) just to the left of the east no. nine tee.
In other words, the green (hole) played from approximately a 90 degree different direction. We changed the front bunkering and slightly smoothed up the approach to accomodate the new direction.
The first tee (West) was located exactly where the pro shop is to-day. Imagine the sight line down the fairway to the green, which fortifies the case for re-instating the short bunkers.
You are correct regarding nine west green, I have made overtures regarding expanding the putting surface back to the original to no avail. Imagine the shot value to a pin located on the right side of the original green with the rather steep slope away from the pin if you left it right. This would put the short greenside bunker back in play, as at present it is almost redundant.
As a matter of interest, the records of the club show that Stanley Thompson was asked to give his opinion on how to improve the golf course. When we rebuilt the bunkers, there was considerable evidence of Stanley style noses and capes.
The short bunker that is grassed over on the 18th hole is a perfect example of a Thompson bunker. There are several others.
In the treees between 14 and 17 (original) are several very good grassed in examples of HS Colt bunkers. The problem is they have trees growing in them!