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Patrick_Mucci

Few modern courses introduce substantive and/or repetitive gather bunkering.

Why is it that this unique feature is mostly void in modern American golf course architecture ?

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2004, 12:33:35 PM »
The obvious answer is drainage. It seems most modern bunkers are built to repel surface water which of course repels balls. With proper subsurface drainage just about any type of bunker could be built on any site, but it would be a maint. issue as bunker drains do fail over time. My guess is on sites like Sand Hills and Pac Dunes there are bunkers that gather shots as the sandy soil will drain well. I've never been to either course so like I said I'm guessing. Building gathering bunkers on heavy soils would add quite a bit to construction and maint. costs, IMO

Bob_Huntley

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2004, 12:41:20 PM »
Pat,

Rees Jones used them on the Dunes.

Bob

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2004, 12:52:27 PM »
I don't really know why.  There are other classic design
features that are not widely used today, as you have well
noted in the past.

In modern designs, I tend to see fall-offs on green sides
either go back into the fairway (false front) or into chipping
areas next to the green.

#8 at Chechessee Creek has a gathering bunker at front left:



My tee shot landed 12-15 feet onto the green, and slowly
rolled back off the green into the fairway, then took a sharp
left into the bunker (and is wasn't backspin that got it going).

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2004, 01:26:46 PM »
TEPaul,

Please have someone read my posts for you.

I specifically referenced "MODERN" golf courses, not classic golf courses. ;D

Andy Hughes

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2004, 01:31:15 PM »
Pat, I wonder how much of that is the general lack of very firm conditions on modern Amercian courses? I recall the Road Hole bunker gathering balls when I was there, but the ground was hard.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

BCrosby

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2004, 01:47:42 PM »
To echo Don Mahaffey, gather bunkers in the clay soils in the SE are very difficult to maintain. Water doesn't percolate. It runs horizontally into the bunkers. I have heard that some of the bunkers at Cuscowilla are having that problem.

I've wondered if the same problem wasn't one of the reasons so many revisions were made to ANGC over the years. It was the only course MacK designed in clay, I think.  

Bob  
« Last Edit: July 15, 2004, 03:49:55 PM by BCrosby »

SPDB

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2004, 01:56:42 PM »
Pat -

Although he is not well represented in modern American golf architecture, Donald Steel builds many gathering bunkers on his courses. Typically he builds them greensides, with gentle shaved slopes that funnel a poorly struck approach into the bunkers. They are on display at Carnegie Abbey and The Vineyard Club.

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2004, 02:41:54 PM »
Sean's mention of The Vineyard Club made me realize how
little I know about the club and that I never recall any
mention of the course on here.

A few pics of the course show some of these fairway
collection bunkers, with part or all of them "shaven" so balls
will roll into them:

#3:


#7:


#12:



Greenside (I think) collection bunkers at #13:


http://www.vineyardgolf.com/default.aspx

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2004, 03:41:25 PM »
Scott, I posted on the Vineyard Club last June after going there. Thanks for the pictures.

John_Cullum

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2004, 04:03:41 PM »
Isn't the gathering bunker somewhat incompatible with the hairy bunker that is the current rage? The hair keeps the ball from funnelling off into the sand. I do like the look of the hairy bunker but I believe a gathering bunker is much more strategic and architecturally interesting.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2004, 07:53:53 PM »
SPDB,

Do you think Steele's use of these features is due to his roots, his acquired frame of reference and his lack of substantive exposure to American golf ?

The pictures seem to depict nice gathering bunkers which are rarely seen on new courses.

Does anyone know if Pete Dye's early designs included these features ?

Don Mahaffey,

I thought about drainage, but, if a bunker drains well, in and of itself, perhaps it can continue to drain well despite additional surface run-off created by the configuration of the surrounding terrain.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2004, 08:54:00 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2004, 10:42:23 PM »
Patrick,
If special attention is given to bunker drainage, I too think you can drain some surface water into a bunker without causing a problem. I haven't seen it tried much in heavy soils and I believe if most courses just used more short grass around their bunkers they would "gather" more balls. Although the pictures here look nice, and I hate to be accused of making a judgement based on photos, they don't strike me as gathering bunkers like you find on the true links courses in the UK. The bunkers on the links courses play much larger then the actual size of the hazard itself. Because so many of them set so far below fwy grade they gather balls from a large area. It's not just that the courses play so fast, although that helps, it's just that everything slopes into the bunker starting quite far from the bunker itself. Modern architects cleverly use little swales and bumps to deflect water but give the look of links bunkers. But, just as water is propeled away, so are some balls, where in the UK it seems everythink kicks toward the bunker. While it's true some greenside bunkers will gather shots from the greens surface, it's usually just a small part of the greens drainage that will flow into the bunker, but you do get the effect of a gathering bunker.

Doug Siebert

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2004, 12:53:15 AM »
Granted drainage is a problem in much of the US, but aren't there ways around it.  Would not gathering bunkers work for a greensite set on a hilltop, especially if there was a handy creek or pond nearby to direct the drainage towards underneath.

Honestly though I don't know why drainage can be called a problem at all.  Yeah, if you have a gathering area for a bunker water will go there too.  Well guess what, water is going to drain into the bunker anyway, so this way there's more water.  Fine, you live with it after it rains, that's true anyway.

I don't think the ground was to be hard, just cut short enough to allow roll.  The grass tends to be much more lush in the US which makes it slower than the thin laydown grass found on links courses.  Maybe they need to verticut the gathering areas ;D
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2004, 06:19:57 AM »
Don Mahaffey,

It seems to me that smaller bunkers with large surrounding areas that feed them is a clever architectural feature rarely put into place on modern American golf courses.

I understand the drainage issues, and need for adequate soil conditions, but they can't be absent throughout the entire U.S..

These gathering areas seem to be designed to attract and direct off line or mis-hit shots, and remember, the bunkers in the UK seem far more difficult then the standard American bunkers, hence they seem to be more penal.

I'd like to hear from architects as to why they don't incorporate this feature into their designs, even on a specific hole basis rather then systemically throughout the entire golf course.

Tom_Doak

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2004, 08:53:41 AM »
Pat:

I would be surprised if Pete Dye's early courses included many gathering bunkers.  It was Pete who drilled into me [and a bunch of others] the importance of surface drainage not washing out a sand bunker.  Indeed, we sometimes decided after the fact whether a depression would be a bunker or a grass hollow, based on whether there was significant surface drainage headed to it.

When you are used to working this way it's tough to change around and build gathering bunkers.  We've got a few at Pacific Dunes ... the bunker on the left of the second fairway is a great one, I've seen drives get past it and then turn and come back in!  But you should generally only do it on sandy sites, and I'll admit I haven't done it that often.

One other note:  a lot of the small gathering bunkers you describe in the UK are partially blind, which doesn't go over very well in the US.  We tend to build bigger bunkers because they are more in scale visually with our wide fairways ... on British links they don't worry about this at all, because most of the bunkers are low into the ground and hard to see at all.


A_Clay_Man

Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2004, 09:07:38 AM »
There's a hole at Riverdale Dunes (Dye ;) 86' ish) that had a little gatherer, even when relatively moist. It was on either the 11th or 12th holes (I played the reverse config) and was about 100 yards out on a par 5, on the right.

TT also made me think of a modern course that might qualify for Pat. But since he's probably seen neither, why mention.

TEPaul

Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2004, 09:36:06 AM »
"Isn't the gathering bunker somewhat incompatible with the hairy bunker that is the current rage? The hair keeps the ball from funnelling off into the sand."

I believe this question by John Cullum is a very important one--probably the most important one. Of course drainage and surface drainage is important to bunkering anywhere but we can certainly see in Europe that in many ways those bunkers on links courses are going to get rainfall either in them directly or as some result of sheet drainage--like anywhere else.

I think the major difference in the effectiveness of European bunkers to gather balls into them compared to their American counterparts has to do with agronomics and the maintenance practices thereof as John Cullum's question suggests.

We certainly can't help missing the fact that the most effective European gathering bunkers (Troon this week is a perfect example) are basically revetted bunkers with extremely close cropped grass (akin to a very close cropped chipping area) completely surrounding their every side. That's definitely an agronomic and maintenance issue which makes gathering golf balls into them far more effective.

American bunkering (some of Steele's North American work being the exception) is generally far more grassy surrounding both the incoming and out going sides of bunkering! As John Cullum's question suggests, and my own super implied---how do you meld the grass cuts around bunkering if one side is shaggy and the other isn't? (Actually the last time I saw some of Atlantic City C.C's fairway bunkering, it could be a perfect example of how to do that---with a lower cut on the fairway side of the bunkering and higher grass on the rough side of the bunker!)

I did a study of the surrounds (grass) of bunkering of American courses using some of the old photos on a number of old American Ross courses and it appears in America even in the early days bunkering always had higher grass rings surrounding it, although, in some of the early photos it appeared shorter than it generally is today.

But again, this is a question of agronomics and maintenance practices as it relates to the ability of any bunker to "gather" balls effectively into it! (This may also have to do with the old agronomic cliche that in America they're always trying to get grass to grow while elsewhere they generally try to stop it from growing!  ;) )

It just appears we in America have always done this differently than they have and continue to do in Europe and on golf course elsewhere such as the sand belt courses of Australia! There's little question that the far greater ability of European and Australian sand belt bunkers to gather balls into them has to do with less and far lower grassing around the bunkering surrounds, not necessarily some architectural difference (although revetting is far more common in European and courses elsewhere than it is in America).
« Last Edit: July 16, 2004, 09:46:12 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2004, 09:12:16 PM »
Tom Doak,

I asked the question about Pete Dye because I had conversations with him in the mid to late 60's when he indicated that he was influenced by designs and design features that he saw in the UK, and I was wondering if collection or gather bunkers might have been amongst the features he replicated in his early designs.

I understand the drainage issue, but the wash out issue would indicate a bunker configuration unlike those we're seeing at Troon this week.  It would seem that cored out, or sharp edged bunkers with sand solely on the floor wouldn't be subjected to wash outs, and thus, if the drainage was adequate, those types of bunkers and surrounding areas could be created with little effort.

It would seem that American tastes are more the inhibitor then drainage or design issues.

Your bunker on # 2 at Pacific Dunes almost claimed my ball.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2005, 07:08:59 PM »
I was fortunate to play The Vineyard Golf Club last week with its "Gathering Bunkers" I have not played nearly enough golf overseas, and armed with Mark Rowlinson's book, I look forward to future trips. Here are three examples where Steel uses them:

Fairway:



Greenside:



With a hairy backside:


James Bennett

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2005, 07:32:11 PM »
Mike Sweeney

I like the 'hairy backside'.  A good term.

TEPaul mentioned 'Actually the last time I saw some of Atlantic City C.C's fairway bunkering, it could be a perfect example of how to do that---with a lower cut on the fairway side of the bunkering and higher grass on the rough side of the bunker!'  He also mentioned the ability of Australian sand belt bunkers to gather balls.  I love the Royal Melbourne bunkers - hard, running fairways on one side right up to the bunker edge whilst the other side can be unkept natural vegetation.  More like a 'hairy back' than just a 'hairy backside'. :D
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2005, 07:44:14 PM »
Mike Sweeney,

Nice pictures.

This is what I had in mind when I started this thread, bunkers that are fed by the nearby terrain, not bunkers that are buffered by rough and the nearby terrain.

David_Elvins

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2005, 10:58:26 PM »
Patrick,

Could another possible factor be that gathering bunkers run contrary to the idea of fairness that seems more prevelant in modern design?
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

James Bennett

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2005, 04:19:17 AM »
It is also interesting to compare gathering bunkers with the alternative larger sand-trap.

Drainage has been discussed above.

Maintenance is lower with the gathering bunker (subject to drainage issues above).

Time for a golfer to repair the bunker (smooth footmarks etc) is less with a gathering bunker, because of the reduced 'footprint'.

Strategy outcomes are also different.  Sean Arble alluded to the varying outcomes with a gathering bunker.  Did I avoid it?  Did it suck me in?  They also play quite differently depending on the shot played.  A weak shot is likely to run into the bunker (ie gathered) whereas a stronger shot that avoids the edges of the bunker might receive a minor deflection, miss the bunker and end up beyond the bunker (a bit like a putt that hits the lip but goes on by).  The strategic penalty (and so placement) of gathering bunkers should be quite different.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Stuart Hallett

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Re:Gathering Bunkers, Where are they in American Architecture ?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2005, 05:18:00 AM »
Great thread! It highlights a common misconception that only light soils can accomodate gathering bunkers, I actually disagree!

Clever old construction techniques were limited to more localised cut & fill operations to model gathering areas, and to provide enough fill for bunker surrounds. They did however tie-in a lot of fill on a surprising big working area for a natural appearance. I've noticed that a very slight ridge before the gathering descent limited the problems of drainage.

The technique also enables big imposing bunkers to be sat-down low enough to fit with the surrounding landscape. I like the idea of seeing a reasonable looking sand line from afar and then more and more sand as you walk up the fairway.

A gathering area that starts with subtle bumps and hollows will amplify the suspense and often the shape of the shot. Balls coming close to the danger line will be subject to either  bad luck or good fortune, that's got to be good golf !

A combination of a closely cut hollow, irregular sand lines and framed by mounding with hairy grasses must be the most natural look, and perhaps our model, IMO.