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Tommy_Naccarato

Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« on: July 10, 2004, 01:49:12 AM »
Its a bold first step, but I thnk I'm going to try do it--kilt and all!

Just think of the fun one could have playing courses like NGLA, Willowick, Pasatiempo, Meadowlark, Cypress Point,  MPCC-Dunes, Montebello, Pine Valley, Griffith Park, Merion, Crystal Downs, Long Beach Recreation Park and many others with these implements of bold statement!


TEPaul

Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2004, 06:33:01 AM »
I wouldn't mind trying hickory but only as a novelty to see what it's like. I sure wouldn't want to make a steady diet of it. On that note of older equipment and the old fashioned way of hitting the ball--I played a round on Thursday with the amazing Sandy Tatum who has an amazing way of hitting the ball. Sandy has the most pronounced old fashioned pause at the top of his backswing--he has some really old metal driver and he hits the ball with a real draw and rolls it way out there! What a great man he is---he appears to be fit as a fiddle and today is his 84th birthday!

Phil_the_Author

Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2004, 08:09:45 AM »
Tom & Tommy,

You should speak to Rick Wolffe about the fun of playing hickory's. He is a member of the team that represents the U.S. versus a team from the U.K. in what is called the "Hickory Grail." It is a very spirited and serious competition that is growing in importance.

At the second playing, Byron Nelson spoke to the team to urge them on!

S. Huffstutler

Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2004, 08:37:03 AM »
You may have my graphite when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2004, 09:24:22 AM »
Several years ago, when I wasn't even a golfer, I was goofing around at a driving range and hit some guys hickory shafted mid-iron.   As I remember, the grip on it was very worn down smooth leather.  When you hit it, it was like hitting a hickory baseball bat on a 35* damp morning.  

But, I'd like to try hickory clubs that had decent grip wraps and see what one could do...  Can anyone who knows the characteristics of hickory shafts comment on what sort of comparative flex to modern clubs would be expected.  Were the old hickory craftsmen able to select shafts or lathe them is such a way as to move the kickpoints up or down the shaft depending on observation of the player's swing speeds and so forth?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2004, 09:43:22 AM »
Tommy,

I'll respond later.  Right now I've got to head over to the club for Ping demo day ::)

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2004, 10:56:37 AM »
No hickory for me thanks. It would cost a fortune to put a decent set together given the individuality of each club. I would like to try hickories as a novelty like Tom Paul, but definitely not as a permanent set.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2004, 11:30:33 AM »
It's pretty incredible to look back at Bobby Jones' career and realize he played it all with hickory.  Some clubmaker weighed his clubs and they were all completely matched in swing weight except the 8 iron, which Jones remarked had always felt a little different.  I believe he is hitting steel shafts in those shows filmed in Los Angeles in the mid 30's but could be wrong, maybe they were hickory.

I had a set of irons when I was a kid that had a pseudo wood film or wrapping around the steel shafts.  I guess there was nostalgia even then.

I don't think the courses Jones won his Grand Slam on were that much shorter than those courses today.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2004, 11:39:08 AM »
count me in tommy....i actually played ballybunion last year with a play set all pre 1840 [left the kilt in the bag ,but did have it along , pampooties too !].

  the starter was amused , but i did manage to avoid the graveyard .....the clubs sure give you all sorts of feedback!

  no pars to report but somehow that is of less concern

  i broke one spoon trying to extricate myself from a bunker , might have to invest in a rutting iron .

more later , got to go, kids and king arthur calling  :o
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2004, 03:06:22 PM »
Tommy,

As a follow up, you'll be delighted to know that a huge line of thunderstorms popped up this afternoon just as I was getting "fitted" for the Pings.  The horn blew and lightning struck. Perhaps this is an omen.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2004, 04:04:24 PM »
Tommy,

I played in Scotland with Mike Hurdzan, who felt as you do that he should have played the greats with hickories.  Now, Mike has a moderately powerful swing, but he started with over a dozen clubs and ended with half that many.  Whether because of the modern swing, hitting modern (and harder) balls, or older clubs just getting brittle, it appears to me that those things should remain museum pieces.

No reason not to find some Hogan era clubs and balls, though.

If you're wearing a kilt, I don't want to be there when the wind blows up.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2004, 05:37:41 PM »
Mike - OT - are you getting the G2s?  You can have mine after today.  It's not the arrow, it's the archer!

Jay Carstens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2004, 05:38:46 PM »
http://www.hickorygolf.com/frameset.html

Tommy,
I'd think you could probably add Sand Hills to your list too.  8)
   
Play the course as you find it

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2004, 08:42:38 PM »
jeff brauer , mr hurdzan probably needs to reduce his hand speed , or get stronger shafts [harder to find in those days].

   i can only assume he was playing replicas not originals ,oh my god !

 
 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2004, 08:45:23 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2004, 09:40:57 PM »
Jay, and Friar's Head!

Jeff, I'm sure I could have talked Dr. Mike's head into even more of an oblivion when it came to this subject, but juding from Ralph's website, he says one of the most important things is to play a soft, very soft ball.

So, I have been looking very hard into finding out exactly what its going to take to get some of those old Floaters--mesh pattern if possible, and try to emulate the stance that Max Behr so wisely took some many years ago and demand the USGA reclaim control of the Sport. He played Floaters up until the day he died, and still drive it past most of his competition!  An amazing feat!

I'm willing to take my time and get it right, and this isn't just a fad thing I want to do. I want to try to incorporate these clubs in my weekly play for good.

Jeff, join me in my quest. We'll make your Ping's or Titliest's a collectors item you can mount on your wall! :)

Mike, I have a new Ping G2 3 wood with the graphite shaft and all, and I'm ready to take it out and go back to my old Ping Eye 2 laminated 3 wood simply because I have no feeling for the club what-so-ever. You just swing it, watch it go farther then my old 3 wood, but you can't make any shots with it. You just hit it and go after it. That's not my idea of fun.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2004, 09:41:46 PM »
Paul,
I think it would be a blast to play that little nine-holer on the island there with Hickory's!

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2004, 09:44:08 PM »
Head to Oakhurst Golf Links in White Sulphur Springs, WV (just down the road from the Greenbrier).  Get a feel for not only how the ball and clubs felt, but the turf conditions to go along with it!

Like any new technology, you don't know how you ever did it with the older equipment.  I pulled out an old MacGregor persimmon a few days ago and the ball appeared to be the size of a bowling ball.

When I visited Oakhurst, I must admit I was not prepared for how good a replica McEwan wood would feel hitting a replica gutta percha ball.  What we've gained in distance and forgiveness, we've lost in feel.

JakaB

Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2004, 10:02:26 PM »
If someone would like to remind me I will bring my playable set of Hickories to Cuscowilla and anyone who likes can play with them....They really are only about 15% shorter than normal clubs and quite inexpensive...I think I have about $350 invested in the complete set.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2004, 10:08:02 PM »
tommy , damn rite if you be talkin jaykle , didn't know you knew this neck of the woods  ;)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2004, 10:34:35 PM »
  i think it's interesting to note that prior to 1880 ,the greatest aerial approach was about a six to maybe eight iron loft with the clubs of the day......a [i find ] fun , slapping , ground game......designed by linksland.

  things sure changed when golf left those coasts.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2004, 10:42:56 PM »
$5 a side, automatic press, 2 down...Game On!
"chief sherpa"

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2004, 11:00:35 PM »
Tommy-
I am making my way to hickory via an old set of Wilson Staff 1970 blades that I first started to play with.  Jim just gave me a MacGregor Ben Hogan driver and I have literally fallen in love with it.  The sound and to watch that ball flight is perfection to my eyes and ears.  Im slowly aquiring some hickories and will have a set soon and play Meadow with them! Trying to find clubs that were to that time period ala 1927.  When the club opened they had a long drive competition and the winning distance was an average of 243 yards by Thomas Cuff(I think he may have been a top amatuer as I had seen his name in some of the tournaments). Second place was all the way back at 210 yards.  

In regards to the "floater" I recently found one for sale on EBAY it was with set of clubs and a bag so there you go. Take a look at the Balloon Ball thread I added a part about Max Behr getting a petition to have the floater instituted for the 1927 US open.  Also it sounds like it was hard to get your hands on a "floater" back then.  They played a tournament at Lido and they used the "floater," but they had to have them sent from chicago and then they were only able to get two dozen.

You may already know this but there is a Golf Collecters Society Meeting in Ventura in Nov where they will have a tournament and a trade show on Nov. 20th. Take a look at their website.

Tully

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2004, 11:51:01 PM »
Just to clairify a few points, there are a few misconceptions about gutty clubs that should be corrected. The clubs most of the better players use at Oakhurst are authentic Irons and Putters with replica Woods. I personally have a collection of Robert White Irons (1870's-1893) that I use, and over the 6 years of the Oakhurst Tournament, have documented examples from Forgan, Park and Anderson. The Irons are fairly consistant in their specs, from the various  manufacturers, in their lofts ranges.
Niblicks typically are 48-53 degrees, probably comparable to a Gap wedge to Pitching Wedge.
Rut and Track Irons fall in at 40-45 degrees, around a modern 9 Iron. Lofters are 35-40 degrees, approximately 8-9 Iron in strength.
Mashies are usually 35-38 degrees.
An Iron runs 25-30 degrees, in the 5-6 Iron range.
Driving Cleeks are in the 17-21 degree range.
Most players carry 5 clubs. A Wood for the tee shots on most of the par 4 and 5's, three Irons with lofts around 30, 40, & 50 degrees. Some carry cleeks for the tee shots but the thick grass doesn't allow much more than a 25-30 degree club from the fairway. A Long Nose Wood from the fairway is rarely a consideration. Putters are recommended to be the Long Nose Wood type but Iron Putters with a squared hosel joint are allowed. That joint is a sign it is typically pre 1890, 1895 at the latest.

The more skilled players in the Gutty era typically used fairly stout shafts because they had the skills to get the ball in the air. Many of the less proficient amatuers used a flexable shaft because it helped get the ball in the air. The Gutty game was an airborne game and, relatively speaking, they didn't run very well. I have played a number of rounds with real gutty replicas and can verify they play best when attempting an all airborne game. The replica ball that Oakhurst uses does very well on it's distance, when compared to a real gutty, but is solid rubber and bounces around considerably. A real gutty lands soft and dies. It is something to be seen and experienced. The ones I play were $25 each and lasted most of 18 holes, not a cheap experience.
With the introduction of the Haskell, players figured out they could do what Vardon refered to as a flat pull swing and make the ball run. Vardon strongly suggested (in 1912) the re-introduction of cross bunkers to get players to start hitting the ball in the air again, complaining strongly about the loss of skills amongst the new generation of players. He was also one of the proponents of bringing the Gutty back as a tournament ball. The first chapter of "How to Play Golf" by Vardon is very enlightening.
Most of my play is with 1920's era clubs and the gutty clubs come out for a month of practice in July to play the NHC at Oakhurst at the end of the month.
My personal opinion of the question, Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?, is it should not be. My personal preference would be to see the ball pulled back to about 80-85% of it's current performance. If you want to know what that would be like, the mesh ball replicas that are available are very close to that performance level.
By the way, 1971 Staffs were my last set of moderns. I still use a couple of them for driving range clubs because they feel so close to my Stewarts.
Ralph / Hickorygolf.com
« Last Edit: July 10, 2004, 11:56:59 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2004, 12:13:03 AM »
Ralph,
In an essence to pull back the Game, I can't think of a more proper way of protesting then pulling a beautiful Persimmon, hickory-shafted driver out of a bag on the first tee, thereby letting all know that golf can still be fun instead of made easier through technology.

You see, I don't like the fact that I can hit a ball straight everytime with little skill--THERE IS NO SPORT IN IT!  I like the fact that there is an erudite group of gentleman that want to play golf as it was meant to be played during the Sport's grandest time.  An era where talent reigned supreme and you didn't need a logo on you shirt or bag to prove it.

This is the time--this is the place. HICKORY NOW, better then never again!  Join the fight! Step up to the plate and see what we have been missing by having to lose the feel and soul because the $750.00 driver we are buying has weights that can be changed to make us hit it even more farther and more accurate!

Now is the time!

(Gee I wonder what its going to be like to actually hit these types of old clubs for the first time?!?!?!?!)  ;)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2004, 12:16:04 AM by Tommy_Naccarato »

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Here Wants Hickory To Be The Future?
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2004, 12:58:23 AM »
Hickorygolf should be reserved for those people that "get it". It should not be forced upon the masses. I have brought a number of people into hickories, but they all had a strong interest to begin with. I play them, not only for the historical research, but because of the increased challenge and the improvement in my skills. I want to be a better golfer and play better golf. But, I want to do it, not have the technology do it for me. When was the last time anyone got "better" at something by making it easier on themselves? I was always disappointed in Ping with running the "You want to play better golf don't you?" commercials, but realized they didn't get it, and didn't want to get it, because they are a business and in it to make a profit.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2004, 01:00:27 AM by Ralph_Livingston »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader