GCA Course design contest

« **on:** July 09, 2004, 04:28:34 PM »

The post on hire yourself made me think about how much fun it would be to have a good topo of a nice tract and have a design contest on here. The best would be where a course will be built and the architect can have all of our great thoughts to laugh at.

« **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2004, 04:56:14 PM »

Tiger,

A few years ago, I offered up a topo map of one of my projects or another for the group to take a stab at.....most said they weren't going to "get sucked into that" preferring to remain in the critics role~

« **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2004, 05:10:17 PM »

I think it would be a lot of fun as well.

I'm all for it. I think it would be cool to find some way of entering anonymously - like sending your design and your design intentions to one person's email address (like the architect's) who would then post the designs for discussion with only numbers for titles.

After the winner(s) have been chosen (maybe by a vote), those who want to can reveal who's done what - those who were crucified can choose to remain anonymous (to everyone but the initial receiver of the submission...

I think it would be a really great thing to do with a group like this - and kind of shocks me that it isn't already being done.

It could be an annual or biannual type of thing. What better way to create a subject of discussion that everyone can approach from more or less equal footing?

« **Reply #3 on:** July 09, 2004, 05:13:24 PM »

I tried my hand at the Golf Digest Armchair Architect contest and my submission sucked. I'd love to try again...

You might want to limit it to a few holes - or two one hole, just so people can really get focused on how the same few elements are utilized in a given design....

You could do say - one par four...

« **Reply #4 on:** July 09, 2004, 05:22:00 PM »

Jeff, If enough of the GCA experts want to try it cannot hurt anything. I can see where being a critic is more fun. I would love to do it. what kind of software is the minimum for green contours. John

« **Reply #5 on:** July 09, 2004, 06:12:10 PM »

Tiger - Geoff Shackelford has a couple of topo's in his "Grounds for Golf" book. Wonder if we could use those?

« **Reply #6 on:** July 09, 2004, 08:39:52 PM »

Folks of GCA, I think this would be a great idea to see what can come out of the minds of us on this site.

Having said that getting the topo only gets you half the picture. The importance of a golf course architect at least in my humble opinion is one of walking the ground in countless directions instead of doing it on a drafting board.

I've had the opportunity to do this a number of times from base maps on old sites that I worked on in the construction business. The closest way I could describe it would be putting together a 18 piece jigsaw puzzle with all the other factors involved, practice facilities, clubhouse area, maintenance area, the list goes on and on but it is great fun.

Maybe Mr. Doak might be willing to strip a topo bare from one of his old courses and submit it to us on this site to have some fun with.

Hope we can do this.

« **Reply #7 on:** July 09, 2004, 09:55:48 PM »

I'm all for this exercise! I'd much rather be an active participant in something than only a critic...

« **Reply #8 on:** July 09, 2004, 10:53:30 PM »

For you young whippersnappers, we did this on the predecessor web golf discussion group to GCA about 5-6 years ago. Many of those old salty dogs are still around. It was fun and Jeremy Glenn, golf course architect from Montreal Canada provided a very fine topo for us all to work with.

One fellow, that should have won the darn contest went so far as to make an accurate scale table model in clay with all elevations and land and tree features. But as someone noted above (with the excpetion of that obsessed fellow who created the scale model diarama) it becomes a bit too much of a table top drawing excersise and you really don't get to actually visit the land and route the course in a realistic and effective sense.

I have obtained excellent topos on a number of occasions of specific property and walked those properties many times, then went back and drafted routes based on the known land qualities as they exist. I can tell you, it is a blast!

« **Reply #9 on:** July 11, 2004, 03:22:56 AM »

Mark me down as an entrant if this gets off the ground. I know it's not the real thing and a first hand knowledge of the ground is obviously important in any golf course project, however this sort of contest may be as close as many of us get.

Time to put the ego on the line fellas..

« **Reply #10 on:** July 11, 2004, 11:07:09 AM »

White phone call to the Emperor. He is the man to put all the requred data online for us. Questions: Links golf in a seaside setting, or a piece of sandhills area of Nebraska, or just a nice piece of parklands?

« **Reply #11 on:** July 11, 2004, 12:05:51 PM »

If someone can come up with a nice topo map I will do a detailed 3d visualization of it to help people get a feel for the smaller details that you might find onsite on a real plot.

All I need is the topo map and a few example photos of the general area and I'll be able to create something that you can use. Once we have some good designs for say a par 4 we could perhaps get one of the architects here to pick a winner and then I can reproduce it in 3d.

I've actually done this in the past for designs by Jeremy Glen and Rick Phelps/Kevin Atkinson.

« **Reply #12 on:** July 11, 2004, 12:07:04 PM »

I like where we are going with this

« **Reply #13 on:** July 11, 2004, 06:30:12 PM »

I'm up for giving it a shot. I do think the idea of a couple of holes done at a larger scale so detailed geen contouring can be done would be best. Maybe a loop of a par 3, par 4 and par 5, would be fun.

« **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2004, 03:10:27 AM »

Although I understand the reaoning behind just one hole I believe more variety in the designs would be obtained by supplying a topo map of an area that could hold up to 5 holes. Then individual entrants may find anywhere from 2 to 7 holes.

Also saying that there must be 1 x par3, 1 x par 4, 1 x par 5 would be a little restrictive and formulaic. Unless of course you'd like to play my 350yd par 3.

« **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2004, 09:26:39 AM »

I really think 18 is the number. It is hard to have a sense of balance and flow with only a few holes.

« **Reply #16 on:** July 12, 2004, 10:02:44 AM »

IMHO - A full course is a tall order for a contest. How much detail are you going to get into? Are the submissions going to get into every contour - including greens - for 18 holes?

How much time do people have to throw at this? I'd like to see a lot of people submit, so we should really take timeframe into account...

There's no question that a contest like the one we are discussing would be an abstraction to some degree; wether it's in the fact that you've never walked the land, or it's only one hole, or only a small piece of property.

But abstraction should be nothing new to this particular treehouse...

I think that a topo of an area large enough to accommodate 1-3 holes is the most doable for designs incorporating finer details. You can leave out parameters like where it has to start and where it has to finish (if it's not a real scenario) - just to see where people go with the use of existing landforms. The interest being - what kind of holes will people come up with? Would they be fun to play? Would they be feasible to maintain?

What were the parameters of such contests in the past?

Regardless, if we're going to do this, someone needs to make the final call on rules and get the ball rolling.

Anybody got a map to work with?

« **Reply #17 on:** July 12, 2004, 10:17:34 AM »

Now you're talkin'

« **Reply #18 on:** July 12, 2004, 10:34:51 AM »

I think most people won't have the time or inclination for 1 hole let alone 18, I think we should keep small to start with and if there a lot of interest perhaps we could do another one later with a larger area to play with.

A good bit of terrain with some interesting features would be a good start. Perhaps if someone with a scanner could post the two topo's from Geoff's "Grounds for golf" book that would be useful.

Here's the sort of before and after I have in mind, I can take various "photos" from locations around the plot to start with to help fill in the blanks in the topo map info. I think the combination of topographic information and these snapshots of the terrain from various places will help make it a more realistic proposition. It won't be as good as walking the land of course!

« **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2004, 10:44:50 AM »

Neat stuff with those photos! The rough at the end of the fairway reminds me of the Valderrama #17 "speed bump" from a recent Ryder Cup!

« **Reply #20 on:** July 12, 2004, 10:54:17 AM »

Mike,

If only those were photos.

Great job with the Links designer as usual.

« **Reply #21 on:** July 12, 2004, 10:54:20 AM »

Well that's just an example par 3 but I hope you get the idea. Hopefully we'll get a decent response and people don't get put off by possible criticism of their ideas.

It's all in good fun and we might learn something in the process.

« **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2004, 11:46:52 AM »

I do not know if these are detailed enough. but this site you can pick out any where in the country and it will give you a topo. sorry you will have to cut and paste.

http://mapmachine.nationalgeographic.com/mapmachine/viewandcustomize.html?task=getMap&themeId=113&size=l&state=zoomBox&ext=-121.984422,36.575038,-121.963422,36.585538

« **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2004, 01:46:21 PM »

We can cut and paste and create our on green outside of the topo.

« **Reply #24 on:** July 12, 2004, 02:10:00 PM »

For those wondering you can find a topo of the sand hills in NE. and design your course next to Sand HIlls it self. or on the dismal river. pretty cool I think if it is detailed enough.

what do you all think. Now we just need rules

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