Redan help

[Carlyle Rood]

I was talking to my uncle, a wine connoisseur, and asking him how he began collecting information about wines.  His answer: "Champagne."

He sampled hundreds of champagnes over a course of a few years.  After that time, he wasn't a wine connoisseur, but he was a hell of an expert on champagne.  As an artifact of that study, he had also developed a discriminating palette.  When he began exploring reds and whites, his expertise grew quickly and exponentially.

Well, I've decided to try the same thing.  In this experiment, I've decided my champagne should be the Redan hole.  If I can visit the hole, I will.  But more than likely, I'll need to depend on topos, photos, and descriptions.

PLEASE, help me by responding and listing (when possible) the following:

a. Hole: Course, Hole Number, Tees, Yards
b. Location: City, State/Province, Country
c. Photos: Photographer, Date
d. Your Comments: Likes, Dislikes, Date First/Last Played

If you don't know all the information, that's alright.  I'll try to fill in the gaps when possible.

Some of you may have played many Redans.  I'm interested in your favorites AND least favorites.  Don't be afraid to duplicate a hole someone has already mentioned.

I sincerely appreciate your help.

[Michael Dugger]

Carlyle,

I'm not prepared to provide all the information you requested but I may be able to help a little.

Original Redan: North Berwick

There's one at NGLA and Yale.

I think Raynor built one on just about every course he designed.  There are far greater Raynor experts here than me, however.

I'd consider Mr. Doak's 17th at Pacific Dunes to be one.

C & C built a beaut at Hidden Creek.  It is shown in Ran's course profile.

[TEPaul]

Carlyle:

I'm only going to list a couple of my favorites for you, and no more, unless and until you explain to me how best to "emphasize" with a woman.

The best redan in the world (IMHO):

NGLA's #4=right to left=198 yds (MacD/Raynor)

Some really good ones in my area:

Piping Rock's #3=right/left high, about 178yds (MacD/Raynor
Somerset Hill's #2=right/left=175, kicker on green (Tillie)
Huntingdon Valley's #3=right/left, 200, (Flynn)
Lehigh's #3, left/right low(reverse redan), about 200 (Flynn)
Philly CC #7, right/left, about 200, (Flynn)
Philly CC #15, (reverse), 230 really high (Flynn)

[John Lyon]

Most fun Redan rendition in Traverse City Michigan is number 16 at the Kingsley Club designed by Mike Devries, http://www.kingsleyclub.com/DIRtour/holes/hole16/hole16.htmlMy least favorite Redan in Traverse City is #4 at Highpointe golf club designed by one of my favorites, Tom Doak.  Sorry no link available.  The hole does not really allow the ball to work from the left and requires more luck than skill.

[James Edwards]

Not forgetting Number 7 at Shinnecock!!

[Jim Sweeney]

I like 15 at Camargo (hometown choice)- Raynor, about 200yds from the blue plate, left to right.

Ialso like 9 at Fairfield, one you don't hear as much about. Also Raynor, also left to right, about 185. Added problem is the seabreeze is at your back. The hole that preceeds it, a par five that is reachable with two brutish blasts and a creek crossing about 60 yards short of the green, plays along the beach and is a terrific hole, also.

[Biarritz]

Some other great redans
most in the 170-200 yard range

Yeamans Hall #6     Raynor
CC of Charleston  #11  (Reverse/Mirror)  Raynor
CC of Fairfield  #9   Raynor
Fishers Island #2    Raynor
Fox chapel   raynor
Chicago Golf
Shoreacres
Mountain Lake
Creek Club
Lookout Mountain

There are alot of pictures on this website in courses by country

"Considered one of the best designed holes in the world"

Happy Hunting

[Slag_Bandoon]

Apache Stronghold's 14th.     Plays from 114 to 186 yards.
Nice hole but does not compare with excitement of North Berwick's 15th.

[GCA]

The 13th @ Yale

[Brian Phillips]

In the next month or so I am going to survey the Redan hopefully to an accuracy of about 25 cm heights.  

If people think that the photo shown of Yale constitutes a Redan then I feel you are mistaken.  I can't see how a hole can be classed as a Redan if you are playing from above the hole.  If the photo is taken from the tee then it is not a Redan it is just a green tilted with a bunker short and left nothing else.

The original Redan you are actually below the green surface and can only part of the flag because there are two bunkers in your face!!

There is a huge roll in the green which divides the green into two distinct section.

I have now played quite a few rounds on the course in the last 4 months and I although the Yale green may look like a Redan it can't play like a Redan if you are above the green.

Brian.

[redanman]

First of all, it is c-h-a-m-p-a-g-n-e (shum-pahn not sham-paine), of which I am a kknow-it-all.  It is the most consistently excellent wine on the face of the earth, as is I suppose a well-built redan/nader.

Most of the best are already mentioned, although  Lehigh is actually 227, downhill and kept too wet short of the actual putting serface by the current greenkeeper to ever actually play as a Nader, not angled nearly enough.  

[lesueur]

I know it doesn't answer the question but I thought this was of interest while we were on the subject.

"Like many of the great holes in golf, first impressions of the 192 yard, par 3 15th are deceptive, and only by playing the hole several times does it reveal it's hidden subtleties. The mounds, ridges and depressions left after the sea receded gives the West Links it's natural contours and the 'Redan' was part of that evolution.

In those days the constraints of the feathery ball determined the length of each hole and the green was positioned on the nearest flat ground. Often a ridge crossing the path of play was used for the green and that is how the 'Redan' was created by nature. The green is laid out on a diagonal sloping plateau with bunkers on the face of the ridge and under the shoulder of the green, on the left and right. The 'Redan' came into play as the 6th hole in 1869 when the course was extended over a stone wall known as the March Dyke to make nine holes.

The name 'Redan' comes from the Crimean War, when the British captured a Russian held fort or in the local dialect, a redan. A serving officer John White-Melville is credited on his return as describing the 6th like the formidable fortress or redan he had encountered at Sebastopol. Conquered only after nearly a year of attrition which left over 20,000 British soldiers dead and four times as many French. The word 'Redan' is now part of the English language, and the definition given by the Oxford Dictionary is 'Fort - A work having two faces forming a salient towards the enemy.'

During the 1880s the bunkers were strengthen with railway sleepers (railroad ties) to allow the green to be enlarged, and in 1895 when the course was lengthened the 'Redan' became the 15th hole. Since then only the position of the teeing ground has been altered. The green is blind from the tee and the player has to shape the shot into the prevailing wind, allowing for the ball to finish below the flag stick. The slope of the green runs diagonally from right to left, and anything above the hole is in three putt country. The bunkers on two sides, deep enough for the player to disappear from view add to the difficulty of securing par. The wind direction plays an integral part on every hole and the 192 yards can be covered from an eight iron to a driver, depending on the conditions."

(North Berwick website)
 


 

[ForkaB]

Brian

Look forward to the results of your field research.  I've tried to fight this "fight" before, but the conventional wisdom on this site seems to be:

"OK, very few if any "Redan" holes outside of North Berwick look or play like the real Redan, but since CB and Seth called their versions "Redan", that's what Redan's are and shall ever be."

To me the operative words from the piece cited by LeSeur above are "blind from the tee" and "the slope of the green runs diagonally from right to left (and front to back)."  CB adn Seth got the last bit right, but forgot about the first.  Perhaps they were among the first of the "stroke play mentality" arhcitects who succumbed to hte whims of their masters by eschewing "blindness?"

As great as many of the copies are (e.g. #4 at NGLA is a much better hole than the Redan), you can call them "Redans" if you want to--just as you can call Schramsberg "Champagne" (sic)--but they are all imposters and you will be just as wrong.

[Carlyle Rood]

I was just excited that I could spell "connoisseur."  

[redanman]

Carlyle

Please note that I am a generally good-natured and opinionated horses arse, not one of the regular types.  

And I do have such a dilemma as to whether I prefer good red Burgundy (Much much more inconsistent-like my game, lately)to Champagne.

[Chip Royce]

The 17th at Mid Ocean in Bermuda is referred to as a redan. Is that accurate per the common definition?
Chip

[TEPaul]

Carlyle:

redanman will even explain how to pronounce connoisseur correctly.

[rhansen]

We have a redan at Blue Heron Pines West, #16, 235 yds. I have no photos, BHP is located in Galloway Township NJ near Atlantic City, NJ. I love the hole because it is so exciting to play.
There is a redan at Forsgate Country Club in Forsgate,NJ I am not sure what hole it is.
The fourth hole at Hidden Creek plays like a redan. You can see a picture of this on the website at www.hiddencreekclub.com.

[Mike_Cirba]

There is a pic (from green to tee) as well as a hole rendering of Stephen Kay's redan 16th at Blue Heron Pines West at the following link;

http://www.blueheronpines.com/tour/hole16_west.html

[ed_getka]

I agree with Brian that the hole at Yale is not a Redan. I don't know that you necessarily have to be below the hole, and I haven't seen the original at North Berwick. At Yale the green does slope from right to left which is correct, but not toward the back of the green. Also the slope to the right of the green is fairly steep and will not feed your ball towards the pin since it won't roll up and feed off the slope. So the Yale Redan only meets one of the criteria in my book.

NGLA has a good redan, but again you are above the hole. The feeder slope to the right is pretty good, but Shivas will disagree since he hit seemingly a perfect shot into it, but caught a little depression in it and his ball didn't feed into the green.

The redan at High Pointe in Michigan has the green and bunkering aspects correct, but the feeder slope doesn't work well.

Th

[Brian Phillips]

Mike,

From what I have seen of the website at Blue Heron Pines it is not a Redan.  The green looks too flat for a starter!

Mr Hansen,

Hope all is well at Hidden Creek and your Redan is more like a real Redan than Blue Heron Pines...

BP

[Mike_Cirba]

Brian;

While not nearly as sweeping as say, 7 at Shinnecock, the redan green at Blue Heron Pines West is more tilted than is apparent in the picture and is a fun, testing hole in it's own right, playing slightly uphill.  Also, along with Hidden Creek, Roger Hansen owns and developed Blue Heron Pines.  

[Carlyle Rood]

I was just looking through Golf Magazine's "The 500 World's Greatest Golf Holes."  There are FOURTEEN references to a Redan hole!

[Golf2002]

I wish my uncle was a wine connoisseur.  

This may explain where the word comes from:


Redan:
[...] Here is a hint: "Re" means "twice" and "dan" comes from "dent": the latin for "tooth".

In ancient times, a redan was a special kind of wall with jagged or "toothed" top edge to defend against attackers. In golf, the word refers to a hole that uses two or more defensive techniques to protect itself from being parred by attackers such as yourself.

Typically, a redan is a wicked par three where the putting green slopes downhill away from the teeing area! Instead of helping your ball to stop, it induces your ball to continue on and roll off the back of the green. That's its first defense. Then, there is a second defense: Perhaps the hole is cut in a crowned portion of the green. Maybe there is a ridge or swale in the middle of the green. Or it could be that the green itself is oriented at an odd angle when compared to the fairway.

The concept here is the dual or multi-faceted "defense". This is a hole that just does not want to let you make par.

from: http://www.leaderboard.com/GLOSSARY_REDAN

[ForkaB]

Ineresting concept, but just imaginative speculation, IMHO.  The double-toothed element of the militray redan relates the use of two salients at the front of the defense, not to some sort of two-level defense.  Nothing to do with what lies behind those salients.  Today's golfing redan is really defined much more by what CB created at NGLA than what was and is found at North Berwick.  IMO, of course.