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TEPaul

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2003, 08:19:16 AM »
Frankly, it appears to me from what I've so far learned about the so-called "Philadelphia School of Architecture" is that they were essentially a group of friends and golfing partners who appear to have been extremely close and both giving of their ideas to each other as well as giving of credit where it seems due and valid. And it looks to me from the article of Wilson's that that was true with others as well.

I've not really run across a single instance so far of proprietariness or artist jealousy from any of them in anything they were involved in architecturally---matter of fact just the opposite.

Certainly those such as Wilson and Crump were more than willing to admit in the beginning that they were real amateurs (note again Wilson's article above).

But, on the other hand, we really shouldn't deny what they actually accomplished in their relatively short and concentrated careers. Crump's learning curve from beginning to the end of his life at PV was clearly unbelievably dramatic and numerous extremely reliable sources confirm that (not the least of which is Tillinghast).

The same could certainly be said about Wilson as evidenced by the agronomy correspondence. In a period of about 8-9 years both he and Piper and Oakley had become three of the acknowedged greatest experts on golf course agronomy in the world.

But I feel that eventually something will turn up to pin down better what happened at Merion between the spring of 1911 and September of 1912.

I feel eventually something will probably turn up regarding Bethpage Black too and then all the reaching for assumptions to make conclusions will necessarily come to an end.

Before this it seems no one gave any of this type of detailed research much thought but now I find many are starting to care and take interest!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geprge Bahto

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2003, 08:27:33 AM »
TomP - someplace earlier you said you thought CB was not too forthcoming with info - I think the contrary is true.

He gave advice at Women's National, at Montauk with Tippett, Pine Valley, here in this Merion conversation we have his involvement and if I think about it more I there are more instances. All this for no fee - same for his course design and construction - he never took a fee nor asked for credit.

I also know he freely gave info on his turf grass experimentation done at his home - again, the true amateur, no fees on anything he did.

His goal was to make golf in America the best in the world.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2003, 08:37:44 AM »
George:

If you check the USGA Handbook, you will notice that all pre-WWII championships were hosted by the Merion CRICKET Club and all post-war tournaments by the Merion GOLF Club.  Same East Course in all cases.

The Merion Cricket Club was the original entity that moved its golf facilities to Ardmore under the guidance of a young member named Hugh Wilson.  There were probably extra dues if you wanted to be a regular golfer as opposed to just a tennis and squash player.  There were (and still are) meaningful club houses at both locations.

At any rate, the Cricket Club was losing money in the late 30's and the golfers blamed it on the tennis players who, of course, blamed it on the golfers.  The solution was for the golfers to assume the existing mortgage and set up their own club.  For many years, the memberships of both clubs pretty much overlapped and, through the '70s, at least half the members of each club belonged to the other.

While the unofficial connection isn't quite as strong in this day and age, the 2 clubs often put on "joint" social events and still have meaningful overlapping memberships.

Anything to add Tom Paul?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2003, 08:37:45 AM »
TE
Nobody is putting forth Macdonald was involved simply because it sort of looks like them?  

It would seem to me if you have sources - Tillinghast and Whigham - both giving some credit to Macdonald, it shouldn't be passed over. In fact that whould good reason to look into further.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2003, 08:39:37 AM »
"Either way, was CBM as influential at Merion as Colt was at Pine Valley?  Doesn't sound like it."

Chip;

Again, the point here, is no one seems to know at this point. But the greater point is no one should say who was unless they can prove it.

Clearly we know someone routed and designed Merion and judging from what Wilson said in that article above; "We began constructing Merion in the spring of 1911....", we can certainly tell he was there throughout, and clearly that's why so many indicators point to him and have for about 90 years.

And we know he didn't go to Europe for six months to study the architecture of tennis courts. We certainly also know that none of Merion East evidences any of the architectural style of Macdonald and Raynor's well known semi duplicative style of architecture.

Too often we see analysts assign architectural attribution simply by saying something looks to them like a particular architect so it must be that architect. In about four significant instances in the last six months we've managed to prove that type of thinking dead wrong.

Certainly because of things like this Wayne Morrison and I have decided to really concentrate hard on a particular research process that never makes conclusions out of various undocumented assumptions of any kind. It's just better that way, we feel, and certainly ultimately more valid. If something is unprovable, then it just is and should be presented only that way. Asking any kind of question or presenting any kind of scenario is fine as long as it's not taken too far without proof.

The various contributions of Crump and Colt are slowly becoming far more clear than I ever thought they could have been six months or a year ago and I expect somehow the same will be true of Merion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Guest

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2003, 08:56:16 AM »
Tom Paul,

I think you've taken the only prudent and responsible position to take in this area.

All to often, an unsubstantiated thesis is put forth as gospel, and in many instances, unfortunately, accepted as same.

The Flynn work that you and Wayne are undertaking will be valued because of your modis operendi.  Keep up the good work.  

This might be the 2 % that even Mr Mucci would be proud of you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2003, 09:17:36 AM »
Here is some more food for thought and is from Merion's Desmond Tolhurst history book. Whatever actual research material Tolhurst was using I'm not at this point certain.

      "Wilson spent seven months abroad, playing and studying courses and sketching the features that struck him most favorably. When he returned, he carried a pile of notes as well as sheaves of sketches and surveyor's maps of outstanding holes and features. All of these were avidly studied by the committee.
        When Wilson returned from England, both Macdonald and his son-in-law H.J. Whigam freely gave their advice. So the club had the benefit of their experience as well as the skill and knowledge of the committee.
          Beside the expertise of Francis, Wilson had a first class crew. Supervising construction was Merion East's first greenkeeper William S. Flynn who had been a groundskeeper at the Cricket Club. (My note--Flynn was actually not the foreman during Merion East's construction--his brother in law Fred Pickering was). Also involved was Howard Toomey, another groundskeeper at the Cricket Club, and a civil engineer. (My note--we suspect that Toomey may not have been on the ground crew but was brought in by some influential railroad members during construction as Toomey was a railroad civil engineer).
          The layout that Wilson fashioned at Merion was masterly. It was even more remarkable considering it was his first effort in course architecture. He fitted the holes onto the land as compactly as a jigsaw puzzle......
           While Wilson admitted that his concepts sprang from the holes he'd seen in Scotland and England--the third hole was inspired by North Berwick's fifteenth hole (The Redan) and the 17th, with its swale fronting the green, is reminiscent of the famed Valley of Sin at St Andrew's 18th hole---none of the holes at Merion is and out and out copy. They are all original holes in their own right. Wilson had absorbed the principles underlying the great holes, then applied them to the terrain at his command.
          It has been said that Hugh Wilson grasped these principles of Scottish and English course design and conveyed them in his work better that Charles Blair Macdonald did. However, to compare Merion to the National Golf Links is somewhat of an "apples and oranges" propostion. Macdonald set out to model each of the 18 holes (at the National) after the most famous holes abroad," that is, to duplicate those holes. Wilson never intended to design Merion under such constraints. His objective was to build a course that would rival the finest British parkland course in beauty and shot value."

(my note; We certainly now know that Macdonald did not design all 18 holes at NGLA to be duplicates of famous holes abroad).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2003, 09:34:40 AM »
Merion golf's split from the Merion Cricket club.

      "At the annual meeting of the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association in November, 1941, Dr Arthur Billings, the association's president, was given authority to appoint a committee to "consider what should be done in the conduct of golf." The meeting was adjourned for a month for the report to be made."
        The special committee met on December 7, 1941 (note the date). On December 18, 1941 the annual meeting met again to hear the committee's recommendation, which was to form a separate club independent of the Cricket Club. That recommendation was adopted.
         On March 1, 1942 prospective new members of the Merion Golf Club met to vote the new club into existence.
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2003, 09:36:39 AM »
Tom MacWood,

It seems obvious that CB Macdonald, one of the most important men in the development of golf in America, was a resource that Wilson approached when given the task of laying out a new course for the Merion Cricket Club.  We have writings by Wilson that indicated he stopped by NGLA before his European trip to confer with Macdonald and Whigham.  (Tommy N--it was not after his return from the trip abroad as you suggested, although I'm sure they got together afterwards on several ocassions).  

As Tom Paul points out, the letter states that Wilson praises Macdonald for starting them out with the "correct principals of laying out the holes" and suggesting what courses to visit.  It also is obvious that Macdonald and others visited the construction of Merion and later years as it was constantly being worked on for the next 25 or so years.  However, it is not at all clear what direct contributions, if any, are to be attributed to either Macdonald or Whigham.  Frankly, I find the lack of objective analysis alarming but all too familiar in much golf course architecture histories.  

It is fair to postulate and question so that all possibilites are considered.  These sorts of questions drive the research process.  But, you have to be careful not to make conclusions too early and not to appear to force connections where they may be but are not stated as suppositions and you do so without nearly enough evidence.  This is not how a serious study should be performed.  

Tom MacWood, you ask "Does he deserve more credit than he was given?"  That is a fair question.  It is what you do with that question that is so strikingly curious.  You say that "I believe it was Macdonald and Whigham who were on site advising during the construction."  That would be very significant and if so, a part of the design history that must be told.  But where is the evidence of this, certainly not on the ground as there is nothing at all obvious to jump to this conclusion.  We need written proof of this or else it remains speculation without support.

You then say the committee, similar to Macdonald, borrowed certain features they liked from abroad and incorporated them into their design.  You mention grass patches in the bunkers that was similar to those at Le Touquet.  You suspect there may be an Eden green, a Redan green, a Road and other famous holes/features.  These greens simply do not exist unless you want to forcefully pound a square peg into a round hole.  

As to the grasses of Le Touquet, I'm not sure at this point that Wilson visited the Continent to study the golf courses.  In a letter Wilson wrote, he mentions "Every good course that I saw in England and Scotland, confirmed Mr. MacDonald's teachings."  So it is not clear what Wilson learned from the Continent if anything.  Maybe Macdonald mentioned the grassing style to Wilson, but that is just a guess.  

Tom MacWood, you say that you would be shocked if he did not visit these sites.  This is evidence of a bias that needs to be contained.  In the pursuit of evidence, nothing should shock you or else you might miss the big picture.  Tom Paul mentioned that the grasses appear to come from Atlantic City Country Club.  We have read accounts where the grasses are native to Europe and came over within the horses' feed supplies during Britain's military occupation of the region many years before.  ACCC is a place we know due to extensive documentation that Crump, Wilson, Tillie, and all the prominent golfers and architects of the region met at all the time.  It is not speculation.

You mention a fetish that Crump, Wilson, and Tillinghast had for the humps and hollows of Royal Mid Surrey.  Where do you see them in Wilson's small inventory of three courses?  Why characterize the look of RMS as a fetish to these three men?  That seems a bit self-serving and not based upon any evidence.

I wish you could help us with the articles you mentioned that were written around the time of the opening of Merion that mention CBM and Whigham as on site advisors.  These are materials that need to be considered.  You are absolutely correct that contemporary newspaper articlesare extremely valuable.  We are fortunate that Temple University and other resource collections are present to research and we will do so.  Tom and I are very hesitant to make conclusions on hearsay and oral traditions.  We have come across so many that are wrong.    

One example where we try to keep a high level of objectivity even though it would considerably aid our Flynn project is the possibility of Flynn designing the West Course at Merion.  Both Richie Valentine (Joe's son) and Connie Lagerman (Flynn's daughter) said independently that Flynn designed the course.  Richie said his father often told him that.  Connie said her dad told her this as well.  The only drawing of the West Course is by Flynn.  Yet we are not convinced to the level required by our standards.  Others would have stated it as fact, yet we are determined not to do so and seek as much supporting evidence as we can find.  If not, we will lay the evidence in front of the readership and draw our conclusions but leave room for interpretation and future findings.  That is the proper way to approach this work.  Anything less would continue to perpetuate half truths or worse, misinformation.

Both Tom MacWood and George Bahto mention the Whigham eulogy of CBM and the mention of the Merion Cricket Club as a Macdonald and Raynor course (at least one where they worked).  Firstly, if true, how do you know if he was referring to the new course built in Ardmore or work on the original site?  Perhaps Macdonald was engaged in some sort of assistance, unless there is direct proof, there is nothing to say.  One should wait until the material is collected that prove or disprove such notions.

It is clear that Merion was a collaborative effort, at least by Wilson, Flynn, and Valentine.  Whenever Wilson writes of the work done at Merion, he never says "I did this" or "I did that," he always refers to "we."

Should this line of inquiry continue?  Of course.  Would Merion be interested?  Absolutely, they as a group are dedicated to knowledge and an open understanding of their course's history, more so than anywhere else we've been to.  They are keenly aware of their place in golf history and are concerned with the truth and not good storytelling.

I am not trying to point fingers.  I hope this post illuminates the need for honest discussion and the problems inherent in searching for accurate architectural histories.  Truth in classic age golf architecture is something we can rarely attain and most often never reach.  We must deal in facts and the amassing of as much information as possible while characterizing any findings that fall short of our high standards of research honestly and openly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

George Bahto

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2003, 09:40:58 AM »
TEP: Tom I am very "comfortable" with CB and Whigham inputting at Merion - as I said, not uncommon. Certainly that was just about basic architecture.

The part that intrigues me are the words of Whigham talking about Seth R's connection at the Cricket Club. Something happened along those lines.

Was the Cricket Club course redesigned after the clubs split?

Is there anything at the Cricket Club?

I guess I should visit there because it sounds like the Raynor connection was at the Cricket Club rather directly at Merion - there is nothing there (Merion) that in any way resembles his work.

Tom and Chip: thanks for the fill in on the two clubs.

I've got to check on an old scorecard fot Merion Cr Club - Tom do you have one from the Ralph Kennedy collection?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2003, 09:51:14 AM »
"TE
Nobody is putting forth Macdonald was involved simply because it sort of looks like them?  

It would seem to me if you have sources - Tillinghast and Whigham - both giving some credit to Macdonald, it shouldn't be passed over. In fact that whould good reason to look into further."

Tom MacW:

Who's passing them over or who's passing over any sources at all? We're not. All we're saying is if there's a mention from J.H. Whigam in an eulogy that Raynor and Macdonald designed Merion East or if someone, even Tillinghast, mentioned in writing that any of them visited Merion East in the spring of 1911, that's definitely worth mentioning--but for what it's worth.

Given all the available evidence that has been mentioned on this thread alone (and I'm certain there may be much more out there to find and/or reanalyze) that definitely does not indicate to me that Hugh Wilson was not the designer of Merion East. All it means is what we know so far.

What kind of specific architectural attribution for Merion East could any reasonable person give to Macdonald, Whigam or Raynor on the strength of what's been reported here?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2003, 09:57:04 AM »
George Bahto:

Merion's East Course is substantively unchanged since circa 1932.  A few new tees added but that's it.  Since the creation of MGC as a separate entity in 1942, Merion Cricket Club has had no golf facility.  Whether the official org. is MGC or MCC, the course being discussed is the same.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2003, 10:18:30 AM »
Chip thanks - not up on Philly stuff (except cheese-steaks and that the Fly-ahs can't beat the Devils - hah)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2003, 10:30:10 AM »
Here's an important newsflash that must be taken at face value. Apparently the original Merion Cricket Club golf course in Bryn Mawr still exists and is mindbendingly of architectural perfection (of a fascinating early time but inspired by Europe). Originally built in the early 1890s it is said that C.B. Macdonald during his move from Chicago to New York in 1900 stopped by and completely redesigned this course using as his model all his first string holes from his European studies (it's believed by this hidden gem in Bryn Mawr that C.B.'s holes at NGLA were actually his second string set!). This course is supposedly slightly miniaturish at this point but is believed to be perhaps the finest architecture ever created. However, it's so super private that only 20 people have been known to have played it since 1900 and of those 20, 18 are now in their graves. The remaining two say they will mention no more about it! (Actually of those remainng two, one can still see just enough but apparently can no longer speak). But Wayne and I will be working hard on that one remaining source and since he's a remarkably fit 107 we're hoping that eventually he will be forthcoming with us. If by this time next year he has not been forthcoming Wayne and I plan to beat informtion out of him!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2003, 12:45:07 PM »
Wayne
Thank you for your lesson on architectural research. I thought GCA was a discussion group--I didn't realize we were putting together the Encyclopedia Britanica. I personally find this line of discussion fascinating. A direct Macdonald connection at Merion is new to me and I suspect to you and TE also. Exchanges like this--where theories meet the light of day, where they are tested and where new information is exposed--assists those who are honestly trying to discover the truth. Tapping the knowledge of the other researchers, trying to gather information from numerous sources and testing/discovering what is plausible and what is not, is a positive in my view. I have no problem when people question my ideas, in fact I welcome it, because it forces me to either support my theories with positive documentation or amend them. In this case know one has put forth any theory, simply exposing new information and asking questions.

As far as your many questions and comments, I'll address them best I can:

I am not trying to force a connection, I'm trying to discover why Tillinghast and Whigham said what they said. It is natural for those who have been researching a subject, when faced with new information that may require altering their thinking or altering common knowledge, to attempt to disprove the new info. If your unable to disprove the info, the next step is to accept the information and try to put into a proper factual context.

The evidence of Macdonald and Whigham being on site is contained in 'American Golf' written by Hazard (Tillinghast?). Why were they on site? Wilson admitted that had he known how difficult the project was going to be, he would have never undertook it. Could Macdonald and Whigham offer practical assistance?

Yes I do suspect there were famous holes or features incorporated into Merion. My suspicion (conjecture, supposition, hunch,....not to be confused with stone cold fact) seems to be confirmed by Tolhurst (Valley of Sin and Redan) and Tillinghast (Eden and Mid-Surrey). Were they too forcing square pegs in round holes?

The use of grass a la Touquet -- again Tillinghast wrote that not me. You said maybe Macdonald mentioned this grassing style to Wilson, maybe he did--very interesting conjecture.

Yes I would be shocked if he did not visit Mid-Surrey and Le Touquet. That is my educated guess based on the fame of these courses, based on the fact that Wilson was in Europe studying famous courses, based on the fact he met Macdonald prior to his tour, based on the fact that Taylor & Hutchinson were friends of Macdonald, based on the fact that Macdonald visited Le Touquet and based on the fact that Tillinghast said Wilson incorporated their features into Merion. Perhaps you should ask Tillinghast to contain his bias.

Maybe Wilson did borrow the idea for the grasses from ACCC, there is no doubt that the trio frequented the early John Reid version of the course. It seems logical to me, but you still have to account for the Le Touquet comments. I frankly don't know that much about the character of that early course pre-Willie Park,Jr. and William Flynn. Did Wilson state he was trying to capture a little AC at Merion or is that your supposition.

I came up with Wilson-Mid Surrey connection from Tillinghast's article - that's what he wrote. Crump originally envisioned/modeled the 3rd at PVGC after Mid-Surrey. And it was widely reported that Tillinghast was utilizing Mid-Surrey features (Alpinization) at Shawnee-on-the-Delaware. All three courses were built at approximately the same time, in the same region, by a trio of friends. It seems to me they had a fetish-like attraction to Mid-Surrey (Is there something wrong with that?). Perhaps you have a different view.

As far as Macdonald being involved in the early version of Merion Cricket, that is an interesting theory.

Have you found any contemporaneous accounts of the opening of Merion that might shed some light on these unanswered questions?

I'm all for honest discusions too...I thought that was what we were doing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2003, 02:19:50 PM »
I've got a daft question, but am curious.  Do they ever (still)play Cricket at Merion or at the Philadelphia Cricket Club?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2003, 02:32:32 PM »
Paul Turner:

Not in recent memory.  The old cricket pitches at both clubs are now grass tennis courts.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2003, 03:37:53 PM »
Chip

Thanks!  A pity, for me anyway.

Here's a pic to compliment Tommy's.  It's from Sandy Lodge shows that Le Touquet was a course of some influence.  Sand Lodge was built in 1911/1912.  Some similarity to the grass in bunkers at Merion?




Also, Rick Wolffe mentioned the Mid-Surrey/Shawnee connection in his presentation at the winter meeting.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2003, 08:14:37 PM »
Tom MacW:

Again, there certainly is no reason in my view not to consider anything worthwhile as a possibility. But if Tillinghast mentioned that MacDonald and Whigam were on site at Merion in the Spring of 1911 it bears trying to find if there's any other evidence of them offering design contributions--but stronger evidence than that remark it should take. Many other architects were also around Merion during it's architectural development--likely Travis, Alison, Colt, Crump, Tillinghast, Thomas, Fownes, and who knows who else. Does that mean you or anyone else should assume that they too helped design Merion?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2003, 08:33:07 PM »
I'm really enjoying this discussion, and appreciate Tom MacWood posing the questions he has.  I especially enjoy trying to understand some of the influencial courses that Wilson might have visited (at CB's urging) on his visit to Europe and how those course might have influenced the work that Wilson, Flynn, et.al. accomplished at Merion.

All that being said, however, I really believe that Macdonald, Whigham, and/or Raynor (seems much too early for him to be heavily involved)'s involvement at Merion was simply "advisory".   Despite some interesting historical writings and some hypothetical supposition, the bottom line to me is that there really isn't anything out there on the course that looks like any Macdonald/Raynor course I've ever played.

Now...William Flynn...that's another matter.  My sense is that he had a much larger role than is historically recognized, and many of the features at Merion can be found at other Flynn courses.  

Macdonald and Raynor I'm sure helped with some feedback to Wilson directly, and probably through an onsite visit or two.  However, the genius of a golf course that is Merion today is undoubtedly due to the combination of Wilson's quick study overseas and Flynn's natural architectural genius.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2003, 09:09:47 PM »
I believe the reason that Merion does not look like anything Macdonald or Macdoanld/Raynor designed is because of the major contribution of the Wilsons, Flynn, Valentine and company. I do not believe there is any reason to diminish the role of Wilson and company. If it is discovered that Macdonald was a siginificant contributor to the construction or even to the design, does that diminish Wilson's role or the reputation of Merion as a golf course? I don't think so.

I don't doubt that many architects lent their expert opinions. The difference in this case is that Macdonald/Whigham are placed on site at an important time--Spring 1911. And also when the course opened Tillinghast wrote an article (1/1913) that specifically mentioned the excellence of the course was in part due to Macdonald's great assistance. You combine that with Whigham's comments - a man who had first hand knowledge - and obviously Macdaonld's role is elevated above that of the other big name visitors.

Like I have said before, the truth is almost always more interesting than the commonly accepted story. I have confidence Merion will be no different. And I have no idea what the truth will turn out to be.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2003, 09:16:59 PM »
If we think about Merion in terms of Hugh Wilson's preparation to build the golf course, I'm not so sure I would term his spending seven solid months in Europe researching architecture, sketching architecture, taking notes etc, etc, and returning with sheaves of sketches and surveyors maps, piles of notes of outstanding holes and features a quick study in architecture. It may be easy to overlook but it seems logical that Wilson would've had an excellent working knowledge of the site, topography and possibilities at Ardmore before journeying to Europe for 6-7 months, most definitely not an insubstantial amount of time.

Looked at that way it doesn't seem unlikely to me that when Wilson returned to Philadelphia he was ready to get to work building Merion.

In a sense what Wilson did was no different at all than what MacDonald had done to prepare himself to build NGLA except Wilson may have had a bit of an advantage, since, again, he could have been very familiar with the site at Ardmore and Wilson's European trip may have been more enduring than Macdonald's. Macdonald actually found and bought the site NGLA is on after returning from his European study.

It occurs to me that if Wilson had lived a normal life span and continued to build golf courses, as he intended to do, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion about Merion--his first golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2003, 04:21:24 AM »
Mike brings up a good point about the well known look of Merion being largely the result of Flynn's later work (and Valentine's).

Macdonald had the advantage of designing and building two courses (possibly three) prior to the NGLA. He also spent several years planning, studying golf courses abroad, as well as picking the brains of experts on both sides of the pond.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2003, 05:41:15 AM »
In the Wilson letter regarding the history of Merion Golf it is evident that the time from the formation of the comittee to actual construction was relatively short given Wilson's trip to Europe.  He says that a committee was formed in early 1911 to construct a new golf course on the 125 acres of land that was just purchased.  It goes on to say that they had a great start by visiting Macdonald for 2 days at his bungalow at NGLA where they absorbed ideas on golf course construction and prinicipals of holes in the famous courses abroad that stood the test of time.  They went over the NGLA studying the holes.  Then it appears that Wilson went off to Europe to study the courses discussed and recommended by Macdonald.  However, it later states that after collecting information from all the local (Philly) committees and greenkeepers they begun the course construction in the Spring of 1911 and opened the course on September 14, 1912, just a year after the September 1911 seeding.

It seems that if the committee met on Jan 1, 1911 there were only a few months between then and the start of construction.  In fact, seeding would have taken place a mere 9 months later.  Maybe the dates are off.  Perhaps the railroad magnates that funded the new course were accustomed to have their engineers and construction crews work on an expeditious schedule and this certainly appears to be the case.  It must have been a marvelous crew and the engineering efforts of Howard Toomey and the skills of Pickering and Flynn must have been a great help to Wilson.  I am certain that many others had advisory roles, such as Macdonald, but any such role must be carefully researched before we can conclude that there was a design contribution.  Certainly there is no visual evidence (of the original 1912 course, not the subsequent revisions) of a style remotely akin to Macdonald and Raynor.  It is remarkable that the efforts of Macdonald and Raynor are so consistant and identifiable throughout all their works.  The only Merion style  is the work of Wilson at Cobb's Creek and of Flynn's body of work.  This should be of no surprise, Wilson and Flynn were very close friends and colleagues that were often together.  Wilson accompanied Flynn to look at the Kittansett site for 2 days and I'm sure there was a spirited interplay of ideas.  It seems as though Wilson had some role at the Seaview 9 that Flynn is credited with.  Wilson, according to his aide Fred Kortebein tried out Pickering in the construction of work at Seaview (although his drinking was more pronounced).  I wouldn't be surprised to find Wilson at other sites that Flynn worked on, particularly around Philadelphia and some of the early 20s redesigns that Flynn did in the DC area as Wilson travelled there often to meet with Piper and Oakley.

I remain open-minded about any influence on Wilson and Flynn by Macdonald and especially those by Thomas, Tillinghast, Crump, and Fownes.  However, until real evidence is found I think that today we must look at Macdonald and Whigham as advisors in a general way.  As to any specifics at Merion, their role would seem to be minimal.  But the search for more information continues.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: CB Macdonald and Merion
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2003, 06:56:03 AM »
Wayne: I don't think anyone is saying that anything built at Merion was at all reflective on the style of Macdonald/Raynor.

I'm sure the talk was about overall hole strategies that Wilson would/could use in his own style.

I personally just got interested in the Whigham quote about Raynor working there. Could it be that CB said he would send Seth down to help in any way he could? - we'll probably never know    but .....

 .... all this very healthy and keeps adding material to the research some of us are doing as well as adding greatly to the knowledge of others reading this and the other threads on this great websit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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