Bethpage vs. Pinehurst

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I stayed at Bethpage during Open week and had the good fortune to play most of the courses again.  After playing the Blue on Friday night, it dawned on me that the overall quality/condition of the five courses at Bethpage are now on par with the courses off of the main clubhouse at Pinehurst -#1-#5 (not sure if 6 is there, I know 7 & 8 are not).

Any thoughts?

[Phil_the_Author]

Geoffrey,

There is no bigger fan in the world of Bethpage than me, but I believe that Pinehurst 1-5 are superior as a group in quality to Bethpage. This is based on ignoring the Black & #2. The Red course now is ready to take its spot in the top 100. The condition of the course rivals the Black, Craig Currier has taken it upon himself to lengthen a number of holes with a view to restoring &/or maintaining the original shot values. It is now a true test that has become a must play.

Unfortunately, the other three courses, the yellow especially so, lack in quality of challenge, need more care and maintenance, and are architecturally blase in many ways. The Green is too short and needs drastic lengthening, the Blue has only about 6 of Tilly's original holes as does the Yellow, and the inconsistency in routing and challenge throughout shows.

The courses at Pinehurst as a group are maintained better and have a consistent overall architectural advantage over Bethpage.

What Bethpage does have is better prices (even for out-of-staters Matt!), and though I realize that this is only my opinion and will probably be challenged for stating it, the Black is head and shoulders above #2 in every measurable area. It is quite simply as fine a golf course as there is.

[Paul Richards]

Pinehurst in a landslide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I'll second this.  I love--LOVE Bethpage.  However, Philip is exactly right; the state basically neglects the Yellow, Green, and Blue courses.  Their condition can be expressed as inconsistent, at best.  The Green could use lengthening--and some tree removal--but it still is a fun course to play.  I do wonder how many original Emmet and Tillie features have been lost over the years through indifferent maintenance practices.  I have seen, in William Quirin's excellent book America's Linksland, a map of Bethpage from probably the late 30's.   Various bunkers were in place then which are not visible today, and I think the courses suffer for it.  
The Blue and Yellow are another story.  I have heard the Blue was as strong, if not stronger, than the Red at the time of its opening.  As most all know, it was chopped up in '58 to create the Yellow.  Again, though indifferent maintenance practices, many of Tillie's bunkers (and maybe Tull's as well) have been altered, fairways shifted, greens probably changed, etc.  It's obvious from the look of the bunkers as a starting point--many of the bunkers are ragged ovals, not the sculpted bunkering we normally know as Tillie's style.  
In conclusion, the state has a great resource.  I love Bethpage.  It's my favorite place in the world to play golf.  But I will take Pinehurst simply because I think it has been maintained better through time.  

[danielfaleman]

"...the Black is head and shoulders above #2..."

Puleeeeease. In what measurable way?

[Phil_the_Author]

Daniel,

As I said in my posting, that is just my opinion, but since you ask, it is in every area from tee to green.

The angles of play, the risk/reward options, the bunkering, the routing of the course in its setting, the beauty of the course, the grandeur of its setting, the manner in which it matured over the years, memorability of play, stunning vistas, conditioning, price to play, location, history (yes, I give that nod to the Black as well).  

These are but to name a few. Please remember that this is just my opinion.

[Brian_Gracely]

history (yes, I give that nod to the Black as well).  

Please elaborate.  I find it hard to believe that a Donald Ross original, which has hosted the US Open, PGA Championship, Ryder Cup, Tour Championship, North & South Amateur and many other events has less history than a course that was designed by Burbeck and has hosted one US Open and some MGA events.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Philip and Doug,

I have played 8 out of the 10 courses (I haven’t played #1 or the Yellow) and I was actually more impressed with the conditioning at Bethpage than I was at Pinehurst.  When I played the Red and Blue on Fri/Sat of that week, one of the guys I went with commented that he really had to look hard on some of the holes just to find a divot in the fairway… and that doesn’t even take into consideration the maintenance of the Black.

Regarding the designs, lets not start a civil war and just call the Black vs. #2 a draw.  Both are quality championship courses with excellent routings.  I give the Red a slight edge over the newly renovated #4, and I give #5 the nod over the Blue, which I think is underrated.  Has anyone ever parred the 6th hole on the Blue from the tips?  Wow, what a hole.

That leaves #3 vs. the Green.  I like comparing these two because both remind me of smaller versions of their famous neighbors (#2 and the Black).  I agree that the Green should be lengthened, but it is actually 500+ yds longer than #3! (6267 vs. 5682)  Both have interesting green complexes, and I think it is a close call between them.

That leaves #1 vs. the Yellow, which sounds to me like a slam dunk for Pinehurst, but I have not played either.  Do you think there is any chance that they might renovate the Yellow (much like they did for #4) and bring it up to the same level as the other four courses at the complex?

It appears that Pinehurst has won the battle here but Bethpage is a lot closer than I thought it would be and is certainly the better option dollar for dollar.

[Tony_Chapman]

It appears that Pinehurst has won the battle here but Bethpage is a lot closer than I thought it would be and is certainly the better option dollar for dollar.

Amen.

I am in hopes someone could explain to me why they would want to spend the money to play the courses at Pinehurst that aren't #2. This makes no sense to me when I can go the Southern Pines, Mid Pines, Tobacco Road, Pine Needles (I know not now, but.....).

I have never been to Bethpage, but I have heard the fees there are at least reasonable (under $150), which is not the case for ANY course at the Pinehurst resort.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Tony,

I played the Red and Green for less than $30 a piece and I played the Blue for less than $20 (twilight).

The non-resident rate for the Black has been increased, but it is still under $100.

[Phil_the_Author]

Geoffrey,

I'm not looking to start any wars of opinion on this. I emphatically stated that my preference for the Black as a markedly superior course to #2 was definitely only my opinion.

history (yes, I give that nod to the Black as well).  

Brian, you asked me to, "Please elaborate.  I find it hard to believe that a Donald Ross original, which has hosted the US Open, PGA Championship, Ryder Cup, Tour Championship, North & South Amateur and many other events has less history than a course that was designed by Burbeck and has hosted one US Open and some MGA events."

First of all, regarding your reference to Mr. Burbeck. He most definitely did NOT design Bethpage. As some on site know, I have been working on a Tillinghast biography that has now been completed. It looks as if it will be released in November. At that time I will be greatly pleased to debate the conclusions proofs that I use to prove this. I would just like to say this, I now have definitive, true "smoking gun" proof of this. These include documents & photographs!

Sorry for the tease, but I hope you will understand.

As far as history, what you state about the events that #2 has hosted is true, but take a little more careful look at the history of Bethpage and the Black.

You referred to the Black as having hosted, "one US Open and some MGA events." These MGA events have a greater lineage than the North and South. For many years the Met Open was consideerd a "near-major" and was s tournament that drew every top flight player. Take a look at the list of the winners of this event and you will find the greatest names in golf history there. The same goes for the Met Amateur. In addition to these the Black has hosted numerous major college cham[pionships, and yes, there is that OPen, one that can be argued has changed the way future U.S. Opens will be chosen. Because of the tremendous success of it, now discussions are taking place at many courses that never would have dreamed of applying to the USGA about hosting the Open.

In addition to that, there is that one other unique piece of history that the Black shares with no other course. The thirteenth hole sits on a ridge that was named "Rim of the Woods" by the local Indian tribe that sold it to Thomas Powell back in the late 1600s.

It is also the spot where the Duke of York, in 1688, taught Powell and Thomas Dongan, then colonial governor, the game of golf and how it was played. The Black is the spot where golf was introduced to America. I first came across this in 2001 while researching the history of Bethpage, as two accounts from a 1935 local newspaper. It was later copied into another Bethpage book, and now I have found corroborating proofs that what was at first a claim in an article, actually happened.

Now THAT is history! If you want, we'll call it a draw.  

[Matt_Ward]

Without getting into all the architectural aspects of Bethpage v Pinehurst let me just say that what players are charged to play #2 is simply outrageous stuff and I adore #2 for what it provides.

All in all, the totality of what Pinehurst offers is certainly behind the grouping of courses you find at Bethpage. I do agree with Phil on the merits of the Red Course. It's a real sleeper that many overlook.

Regarding the Black v #2 that's a tough call and I don't have all the time right now to break both of them down. Clearly, an interesting match up of divergent styles.

[Jamie_Duffner]

This is a tough comparison.  It's a muni complex vs an upscale resort.  Bent grass vs bermuda.  High vs low green fees.  Collared shirts required vs well, let's say they draw the line at tank tops and cut off jeans!  Not too long ago they didn't.

Stop beating up the poor yellow course.  It has some decent holes and serves an important purpose.  For one, it's a good learning course.  Two, it's only one of two courses that having returning nines.  That means a lot for twilight play.  Ever walk in from #9 on the Black or #12 on the Red at 8:30?  You'll need a flashlight for the last stretch of that walk.

The green course is neat and antique-ish.  Some really severe greens on a few holes and some fun short par 4's.  I love the 18th.

I am proud to say I have birdied #6 on the Blue.  Driver and a slinging hook 5 wood to 6 feet.  Really lucky and probably over 10 years ago.

We all know the Black.  The Red is superb and not that far behind the Black in my mind.  It does have one thing the Black does not and that's a couple short and interesting par 4's.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jamie,

You wrote, "I am proud to say I have birdied #6 on the Blue.  Driver and a slinging hook 5 wood to 6 feet.  Really lucky and probably over 10 years ago."

Only true Bethpage afficionados can appreciate what an accomplishment that is. #6 on the Blue is one of the great undiscovered par fours in the world, and #2 is not that far behind it either.

For those who have never experienced it, it is a par four that plays from 430 to 460 with a downhill tee shot to afairway that slopes away to the right, and dramatically so at the apex of the near 90 degree left fairway turn. The second shot plays uphill and forever to a small, well-bunkered green with a number of slopes in it that make a two-putt a gift.

#2 is a par four that plays at 440-450 uphill in a small and narrowing valley. You need to carry over trees and rough at the right corner to place your drive in the right edge of the fairway and the flat plateau. The second shot is into another great well-guarded green that challenges you to place your approach in the perfect position otherwise a three-putt is probable.

Two fabulous holes that need "discovering."

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Right on both counts--Bethpage Blue #2 and #6 are good, tough holes.  For #6, I have hit a driver over the corner into the left fairway bunker (I aimed for the 200 marker on the right side of the fairway and pulled it, but it turned out okay) and then a 7 iron fairway bunker shot to 10 feet.  Wind helping from behind on this shot.  Flag was front middle, just on top of that little ridge, maybe 8-10 paces in.  

I haven't been able to hit Blue #2 in regulation, but you are absolutely right about the hole, and the green.  It's tough because it's uphill at 450 yds, as well as often playing into the prevailing (west) wind.  In the afternoons, it HOWLS.  My best play was a driver to the top of the hill (knocked down by the wind) and then a 3 wood into the right bunker.  

As a side note, I believe #17 on Blue is one of the original Tillie holes.  I say this because of maps I have seen as well as the bunker shape.  It looks pretty ragged now, but I have a map showing a sculpted Tillie bunker.  The other par 3's, Blue #3,7,11 I believe are pretty indifferent holes.  Might be Tull on all three.  

I also like the second hole on Green--the green looks wide and narrow from the tee, but it's actually pretty round.  Right over the bunker is a bit of fairway which isn't a bad place to miss with your second shot--you can chip straight uphill and quite often save par.  As much as the green slopes back to front, I have never experienced putts breaking dramatically or rolling off the front of the green.  Pin high middle of the green, I've usually found it to break maybe three-four balls off the top edge of the hole.  Given the atrocious pace of play on this hole, it's probably best this way.

Also, look at the bunkering on #4 Green.  It's obvious that the fairway bunkers are Tillie (from their shape), and I would guess the front and rear greenside bunkers (green sits at an angle to line of play) are Emmet.  

From my old Bethpage map, I also noted a large fairway bunker to the left of the start of the fairway on 9, which is covered up with grass now.  

12 has a wicked tier in the back/center of the blind green.  If the pin is on the left side of the green and your approach is on the right, fugghedaboutit.  This is a good example of testing the player's wedge game.  I have seen so many players hit driver here--and I just don't know why.  Faded 4/5 iron just past the corner and a pitching or gap wedge works best for me.  

17 has an interesting crossbunker at a diagonal to the fairway.  

I could never figure out the 7th green.  It's always a really weird shade of green, and the grass is always a really strange texture.  Why is this?  Is this a low area, or is the green a different grass than the other greens?  

[Sam Maryland]

Philip and Doug,

I have played 8 out of the 10 courses (I haven’t played #1 or the Yellow) and I was actually more impressed with the conditioning at Bethpage than I was at Pinehurst.  When I played the Red and Blue on Fri/Sat of that week, one of the guys I went with commented that he really had to look hard on some of the holes just to find a divot in the fairway… and that doesn’t even take into consideration the maintenance of the Black.

Regarding the designs, lets not start a civil war and just call the Black vs. #2 a draw.  Both are quality championship courses with excellent routings.  I give the Red a slight edge over the newly renovated #4, and I give #5 the nod over the Blue, which I think is underrated.  Has anyone ever parred the 6th hole on the Blue from the tips?  Wow, what a hole.

That leaves #3 vs. the Green.  I like comparing these two because both remind me of smaller versions of their famous neighbors (#2 and the Black).  I agree that the Green should be lengthened, but it is actually 500+ yds longer than #3! (6267 vs. 5682)  Both have interesting green complexes, and I think it is a close call between them.

That leaves #1 vs. the Yellow, which sounds to me like a slam dunk for Pinehurst, but I have not played either.  Do you think there is any chance that they might renovate the Yellow (much like they did for #4) and bring it up to the same level as the other four courses at the complex?

It appears that Pinehurst has won the battle here but Bethpage is a lot closer than I thought it would be and is certainly the better option dollar for dollar.

not taking $$$ into consideration, personally I'd take the Red over #2 eight of ten days....taking $$$ into consideration I'd take Red ten of ten days.

who can provide some more detailed information about BP Blue?  original holes, etc...

SM

[Tom_Doak]

I've never walked the Green course at Bethpage so pardon me for asking, but why does it "need lengthening"?  Certainly at a five-course complex there is room for one course that isn't 6900 yards, isn't there?

[Mike Golden]

I've never walked the Green course at Bethpage so pardon me for asking, but why does it "need lengthening"?  Certainly at a five-course complex there is room for one course that isn't 6900 yards, isn't there?

Tom, as someone who has played the Green many, many times, there actually isn't anywhere to go to lengthen in so it's a moot point.  Here's the hole by hole summary:
#1:  Tee box is just to the right of the Black's, same downhill kind of shot but shorter
#2:  Across the road, nowhere to go back to lengthen
#3:  Uphill, blind par 3, ditto
#4:  Fun downhill par 4, again, nowhere to go back to lengthen
#5:  Dogleg left par 4, tee can't be moved back (maybe 10 yards tops)
#6:  Par 3, tee can't go backwards
#7:  Par 5:  trees behind tee box, can't be lengthened without major work
#8:  Tee is just behind #7 green, nowhere to go
#9:  Outstanding par 5, green complex reminds you of #1 at Spyglass but again, nowhere to go to lengthen
#10:  Very short par 4 from elevated tee but nowhere to lengthen it
#11:  Par 3, tee is adjacent to #10 green
#12:  Short par 4, fun hole, can't be lengthened
#13:  Par 4, ditto
#14:  Par 4, ditto
#15:  Par 3 from elevated tee, can't be lengthened
#16:  Par 4, ditto
#17:  Excellent par 4, over 400 yards, ditto
#18:  Excellent finishing hole but it's against Round Swamp Road (tee is very close to #1 green, which is very close to Black #1 green) and is as long as it can be.

The Green is a good, fun course to play but not an enormous test for someone with length, it would be a pitching wedge to most of the holes for them.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Not sure I agree with your assessment.

If definitely needed... 2 Green could share the tee with 2 Black.

6 has room in the trees without cutting into the 7th. 8 tee could be shifted a little left (why lengthen it though, the risk of carrying through the fairway is the challenge). Etc.

I just played it a few weeks ago with Prof. Bausch and was thinking as to where length could be added - however, considering the "other" courses at Bethpage are not getting attention that, nor the rest of this thread, should be a consideration.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom, Mike, Kyle & Sam,

Tom, you are correct, the Green course doesn't need lengthening. It is a wonderful course as is and has enough challenging holes that can keep the skilled player interested while he takes his son or daughter along with him to play on their first "real" golf course.

Mike, I agree with your assessment of the course.

Kyle, the 2nd most definitely could NOT share the tee with the Black. My favorite writer once wrote that "Logistics are the assassins of ideas..." Consider the following logistics that make that idea impossible:
1- A shared tee would slow up play on TWO courses as they waited for others to tee off...
2- It would require the removal of a good number of trees. Despite the tremendous numbers removed from the Black prior to the 2002 Open (more than 9,000) the park now is under a severely watchful eye where tree removals are concerned.
3- It would require a massive moving and cost to bring in dirt to extend the tee back and to the side. 
4- Even if this were possible, it would also require tee shots played over the heads of those on the 17th green of the Green course.
5- Most important of all... those who typically play the green course are average or fair players. A tee box way back there would never be used by them. Those who want challenges can always play the Black, Red and Blue courses...

The reality is that there is no reason to lengthen any of the holes on the Green, especially in light of it's own forgotten historical significance. What always gets lost when talking about Bethpage in light of the three new courses that tilly designed, is that he also did a redesign of the existing Bethpage Golf Club (1932) which was the original Lenox Hills Golf Club before the State of New York leased it.

Tilly created several new holes and reworked almost every one of the others. With the exception of some bunker rebuilding done on a few holes (12 & 18) 3 or so years ago and the removal of the creek that crossed the 17th fairway in the late 1970's, vestiges of which can still be seen, it remains as Tilly left it.

Sam, it is my understanding that there be a new book coming out, possibly next year, that will detail all 5 of the courses and their entire course evolution history as well as provide significant details of the entire park history as well...

In the meantime there is also a series of articles that can be found in the Long Island Golfer Magazine that began with this past July 2008 issue and will continue through each one until the 2009 U.S. Open.

[Kyle Harris]

Phil,

There are usually groups waiting on that tee anyway. 2-3 deep most of the time.

Also, my phrasing was "if definitely needed." I agree that the Green does NOT need lengthening. There is plenty of room on the Green to lengthen it though, it's not that hemmed in. I checked the aerial, there would be no need to hit shots over the 17th green at all. 

But the course does not need to be lengthened, then again, neither did any of the Black, but they found room there - and even bought land from SUNY Farmingdale for the new 9th tee.

When I was there a few weeks back, there appeared to be a good amount of bunkers resodded and deepened - i.e. around the 11th green.

All told, I love the Green and it's my 3rd favorite on the facility.

[Joe Bausch]

For those of you that have never played B'page Green and would like a little tour, here are the 100+ pics from the round a few weeks ago with Kyle Harris:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Bethpage_Green/index.html

[Phil_the_Author]

Kyle,

Not only can you not read an aerial, you also can't read your own writing! You wanted "2 Green could share the tee with 2 Black..." In order to do so tee shots would start out over the 17th green of the Green! (I'm sure that will confuse some English scholar!) Also, the property and ability to lengthen holes on the Green has some serious "logistical" problems as well. For example, the Park prefers to keep a buffer area between itself and the community and the other border entities in that area. Removing trees to extend holes in this area is a rather large problem in that regard as well.

I see that I'm just going to have to give you an on-site lesson in the realities of Bethpage...  message me about the end of October...

Joe & Kyle, wonderful photos! I am thrilled to see that you recognize the lack of quality public golf courses in Philadelphia by listing the Green Course at bethpage as a "Philly Public Golf Course" at the top of the page! The next thing I'll expect to see is the both of you wearing Giants shirts with Mets hats! 

[Kyle Harris]

Phil,

I believe that Joe took this photo from directly behind the 2nd tee of the Black of the 17th green of the Green. If your supposition were correct, you would be able to see the 2nd hole in the background.

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Bethpage_Green/pages/page_104.html

All it would take is the removal of two trees and a set of tee blocks.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=40.743985,-73.450196&spn=0.002658,0.004828&t=h&z=18

There is the area in question... it would take one heckuva pull-slice to even be over the back collar of 17 green.

Why could they remove trees and buffer tees on the Black Course?

[Matt_Ward]

No contest between the portfolio provided with Pinehurst v Bethpage. Have to say to my good bud Phil Young that the contest for Bethpage's biggest fan is a matter of opinion on your part !

One quick comment -- the qualities of the Blue Course -- especially the challenging front side are often dismissed or ignored.

The only saving grace with Bethpage Black is that the cost to play that famed layout is a fraction of the gouging that Pinehurst #2 seeks to rip off when playing there.

I'm glad I had the opportunity to play #2 during my college days when its accessibility and price were much more user friendly.