Trees/rough on mature UK courses

[Philip Gawith]

i read in some of the posts of aggressive removal of trees on some venerable courses in the US like Shinnecock and NGLA. are there example of any of the older UK heathland or parkland courses embarking on something similar. most/all of these courses, i assume, did not have large trees or overgrown rough when they were built. so this was no part of the architect's strategic plan. yet, 80-100 years on, these have become a big feature of the courses and not, in my judgement, for the better.

you end up spending too long looking for balls either in unkempt undergrowth, or second-cut rough which is like a pasture. also, indifferent shots (as opposed to awful shots) are quite often penalised with a lost ball. surely this is wrong? yet i think members/green committtees seem to have a machismo attitude to rough of this sort - as if the course is somehow better for its members suffering these sort of severe penalties.

any thoughts?

[James Edwards]

Philip,

Yes, one of the most extensive tree removal programs I know of was completed at Hankley Common Golf Club in Surrey.  (One of the classic heathland courses)  I dont know the exact details but they removed thousands of trees to restore the golf course back to its former glory of being 100 % heathland.  I know they were unhappy with the encroaching tree limbs and the shade problems being encountered on the greens so they undertook this tree program which has turned this golf course totally around!

If you havent been there, the course is excellent, one of the best heathland courses I have been too and I am fortunate to live in the london area.

[Marc Haring]

Hi Philip.

As James stated, Hankley is the one that originally ripped out their trees but I believe it was done more for environmental reasons than for agronomic, strategic or restorative. I will also concur with James with his recommendation it be visited. It’s a great course. The driving force at Hankley was Ian McMillan their course manager at the time. He has now moved onto Walton Heath via a spell at Queenwood. Clive Osgood the previous Walton Heath incumbent started a programme of tree removal himself and so I am sure Ian will continue the good work.
Another course that has embarked on tree removal was Stoke Park. This has restored much of the original Colt character to the place but it also coincided with a take over that has inserted much to lament about, not least the £4.00 pint of lager and the £90.00 mid week round.
Others are Sunningdale New, which I played last week. They have just started and then there is Camberley Heath although in their case, residential development, buggy paths, beautification schemes and that bloody pond on #16 has put paid to any chance of getting that place back to its former glory.  

[James Edwards]

Marc,

Great guy Ian Mcmillan and his brother Cameron who is now the head super at Queenwood as Im sure you know.  Ian showed me and a client around Walton Heath and then invited us to play on the Sunday...  Is that beyond the call or what...

His brother showed us around Queenwood the day before and explained how Ian was involved with the original construction and also showed us the slide show of all the problems with the inclement weather.. etc The course was good although I will wait for a couple of years yet until they start growing the heather on other parts of the course to tie in with the bunker faces..

Philip,

Your friend isnt irish DC, spanish SG, danish TB or AUZ AS is it?

[Paul_Turner]

Marc

I can't figure out what Stoke Poges want.  They've planted new saplings on the 8th.

How agressive do Sunningdale intend to be?  Do you know where they are clearing on the New?  Are Camberley Heath serious about this?

There could be a niche for someone in the UK, working with golf clubs and environmentalists to return the heath.  I have lots of vintage pics if they are needed!

(Walton Heath did a lot of clearing recently.)

[Marc Haring]

Paul.

I’ve never quite figured out the motivation of Stoke regarding their course. On the one hand they’ve recreated some of the original Colt bunkering while on the other they have gone for the full Augusta look (7th). But I don’t want to get too critical, it is after all, purely a commercial operation and frankly the place was a mess when the members leased it.

Sunningdale I don’t think will touch the Old. I believe the members regard it as very much a heathland course with trees being an essential ingredient.  A bit like the Berkshire in that respect. They have done some widespread clearing of the pine and birch on the New, primarily around tees. The back of the 10th and 16th being two I remember where a few acres have been cleared. Again it looks as though it is for environmental and perhaps agronomic reasons at the moment. The fairway peripheries are still the same but they have certainly made a start and I can vouch for their course manager, Brian Turner who is highly accomplished and has great vision for the place. I do really think the decision needs to come from the members though as regards restoration. I mean we all know the type of politics that can go on in such establishments and sometimes an unpopular dictator can do a lot of good.

No Camberley aren’t serious about widespread tree clearance, it’s more an unchoking excersise which judging by your pics, Meyrick Park need to do big time.

Parkstone. That’s another one that have taken the bull by the horns.  

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Alwoodley have removed quite a few trees, leaving those around the boundaries of the course to screen it off, but restoring the sight lines Mackenzie would have known.  Notts is another first-rate course which has done some necessary clearing.

Golf courses in the UK have had a pretty poor press from the environmental lobby, rather unfairly in some cases.  Royal Dublin, for instance, publishes an annual ecological audit which reveals it to be a haven for all sorts of flora and fauna.  A few years ago one of the Radio 4 nature programmes visited Fulford in York and the presenters were very agreeably surprised at the proliferation and wide variety of wildlife to be found so close to the centre of York.

[Paul_Turner]

Mark

Yes, there was a radio program from Temple golf club too, which came to the same conclusions.

I wonder how much rare heath and links has been preserved through golf.  I bet it's an appreciable fraction of the total.  Particularly heathland because much of this was rooted up for housing developments and farming.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Paul,

A friend of mine was for many years a conservation officer in Surrey and he was impressed with the work of some of the golf courses, not least Hankley.  He was consulted (ecologically) on the Edinburgh course at Wentworth and was impressed by the way they took on board his suggestions about which trees and plants to remove and which to preserve.  His greatest preservationist friends, however, were the army, whose ranges and training grounds are excellent habitat for wildlife.

[Marc Haring]

Thought I’d resuscitate this old thread with a before and after pic.
What a difference 80 years makes.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I really know nothing about golf in England and certainly not the tree evolution on any of the courses but I saw Alwoodley last summer for the first time and I felt the course and it's interior generally had a most expansive and open feeling to it. That did not mean that some holes did not use trees in the necessary way certain they play and I think should play. I think it was #8 and also #10 that had treelines on the left that created the essence of how to play those holes as did #15 going the other way.

[BCrosby]

Marc -

Incredible before and afters. What course is that? It's not just the growth of trees in the after picture. Amost everything has changed. Bunkers removed, green surrounds smoothed out, the putting surface looks flatter.

Do you know how much of this was intentional and how much was normal aging? I ask because your before and after pictures look very much like several I've seen of Ross courses in the US. They have kept few records. Trying to figure out what was changed and what simply evolved has been very difficult.

Bob  

[Marc Haring]

Philip.

You’ve got it, 5th Sunningdale New. Personally I prefer the original. It reminds me of the 7th at Hankley Common. Great hole. Exposed, rugged, natural looking, just as Colt intended.


Bob.

Interesting questions, I wish I had the answers. I felt the mounding around the green was almost identical. That one on the left, back left and right hand side are all still there. If the green is flatter I would almost certainly put it down to 80 years of top dressing before they got into coring. That front bunker I remember as having a heather face to it but I think it was turfed heather done by one of the previous Supers. The problem with putting heather turf down is that you end up with a layer of stored nutrients and pretty soon the grass out competes the heather and takes over. There is still a couple of bunkers on the right side of the green but they are ¼ of the size now.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tom,  

Those strategic trees at Alwoodley were there from the start, part of Mackenzie's (or Colt's - not to offend the Colt lobby!) layout.



If anyone is near Liphook, there's a pub on the old A3 (now by-passed) close to where the course used to start (present 9th or 10th).  It has some lovely old photographs of the course when first laid out on completely barren heath.  It's still heathland, but just about every fairway is tree-lined.  The trees don't often come into the playing strategy of the hole (until the last few) but they give the course a very different feel.

[johnk]

Mark,

Here in the US, it's very tiring to see all the partisanship and demonizing of the other party with respect to the Bush / Kerry contest.

However, I think it'd be fun to recreate that level of mud slinging between the Mac and Colt partisans here on GCA !!

Speaking as a CCC'er (Cult of Colt Club), I'm ready to pounce - especially on anyone who fails to see what an over-rated self-promoting kilt-wearing bombast that old Mac was!  You know of course, he didn't do the routing for some of "his" most famous courses, - don't you?

- just kidding -

[Mark_Rowlinson]

John,

There are enough threads on GCA running something like Shinnecock Hills vs NGLA that you'd get many a reply to Colt vs Mackenzie.  Go on, start the thread....


Mark.