Kay/Whitten's "Architects Club"

[TEPaul]

I had an interesting opportunity to play Kay/Whtten's Architect's Club in Phillipsburg NJ yesterday with Stephen Kay.

At one point Stephen said that something should be written on Golfclubatlas about the course and I said I thought something had been shortly after it opened. I don't have the time to find it in the archives right now though. Who on here has played the course?

Anyway, it's an interesting day indeed when you can play a course with the architect and hear his commentary of how and why each hole was done the way it was as a representation of a eighteen famous dead architects.

Not only that we were playing with Neil Mcdermott (President of GAP) and his son Michael Mcdermott whose been the player of the year in the Philadelphia region for about the last three out of four years.

Michael Mcdermott is immensely long and that's always truly fascinating to see how the strategies of various holes is handled by that type of player. I think it was very good for Stephen to see that first-hand too and towards the end of the round we sort of agreed that one deals architecturally with a player like that either very differently or perhaps not at all.

Stephen asked me towards the end of the round if I thought it was possible to design a course representative of that many different styles and not have it turn out looking and feeling like too many diverse pieces. I think it is possible and I think this course does it well probably aided by the beautiful colorazation contrast (light brown fescue against green) that's basically used throughout the course.

This course is really fun to play---and it's an education in architectural styles and strategies as well (ordinarily I don't like those little handbooks explaining how to play every hole and what the strategies are on every hole but in the case of the Architects Club I think it's not only necessary but a great education in architecture.

I got to go but later I'll go through the holes and talk about the strategies of them. Some of the strategies are really great, really interesting in many ways.

Stephen Kay and Ron Whitten did a good job with this interesting product and anybody who has the opportunity to go see it and play it should---it's a lot of fun and it's on good land for golf!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Stephen Kay and Ron Whitten did a good job with this interesting product and anybody who has the opportunity to go see it and play it should---it's a lot of fun and it's on good land for golf!

Dan & Peter,

Since you IGNORED my advice, maybe you will listen to the esteemed Mr Paul next trip.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom

I have played Architect's once after it opened a few years ago and agree with your comments. The course has a nice flow from hole to hole notwithstanding the different styles of each hole. I remember looking forward to each  hole just to see what Kay/Whitten were up to. I've been meaning to return there and your post has prompted me to fit this course in on my list for this year.
Do they still have the Tuesday special for PA residents?

Steve

[A_Clay_Man]

Stephen asked me towards the end of the round if I thought it was possible to design a course representative of that many different styles and not have it turn out looking and feeling like too many diverse pieces. I think it is possible and I think this course does it well probably aided by the beautiful colorazation contrast (light brown fescue against green) that's basically used throughout the course.

Tom- Was Kay referring to "The Architects Club" when he asked the question? or was it possible he was looking towards a future project?

[Matt_Ward]

Steve said:

"Do they still have the Tuesday special for PA residents?"

Steve -- does any Pennsy course do the same for Jersey people?

Tom Paul:

Regarding Architect's Club -- it is without question one of the ten best public courses in the Garden State IMHO.

The weak points? The first couple holes are lackluster at best. When you get to the short par-4 5th things start to perk up and by time you reach the dynamic par-4 7th -- modeled after Tillinghast holes the excitement really gets going.

I really believe the par-4 9th is a bear of hole -- one of the best public holes in New Jersey and one that often plays directly into the prevailing southwest wind. You have to smoke two good shots to get near the hole and when the pin is cut in the left rear it becomes very demanding. They say the hole is modeled after Donald Ross but I have never viewed the hole that way.

The entire back nine is also good save the boring closing hole -- one would have to expect as such since it's modeled after a Trent Jones hole. The green is as big as Kansas and I just think as a closing hole it could have really sealed the deal for a course that does offer plenty.

[frank_D]

Who on here has played the course?

brother TEPaul

i did - sat nov 29 2003 - 10am tee time as a single

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Yes, the Tuesday PA special still appears on their website:


Cross the Delaware
to
Experience Heaven on Earth
 
Pennsylvania Residents can play on Tuesdays
for a SPECIAL RATE of $58.00

However, the afternoon(after 1pm) rate is $55 M-Th. A great bargain for anyone interested in playing a top public course.

The other great bargain in NJ is the T-Th rate of $55 at Twisted Dune for those of us over age 50.

I do not know of any PA courses offering special rates for NJ residents. If I find any, I'll let you know.

Steve
 

[TEPaul]

Matt Ward:

You and I have had our disagreements about a lot of things on here in the past but I completely agree with you're assessment of the course in your post--all of it. When I got back I was basically going to say EXACTLY what you did---all of it but you already said it.

The holes of the Architects Club are not really copies of the designers' holes but more in the way of sort of originals representing their styles. The 9th loosely represents the green-end of Seminole's #10 but this hole is much longer and the green is not the same.

I really like the strategies on the 10th (George Thomas)---there's a ton of really interesting direction and distance possiblilities on the hole off the tee and the green contours and orientation casts back all kinds of different problems and solutions to what you do on the tee. I like the drive options on #11 (Flynn), I really like #13 (Mackenzie's ANGC #13), and Ross's #15---big wide fairway into a really interesting green and optional approach orientations. The scale on #17 (Stanley Thompson) is pretty cool too. The others you mentioned, #5,6,7 are really good too.

[Mark_Fine]

I played on opening day with Ron Whitten and posted on this way back on GCA.  I don't know how to pull up such old posts.

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

You see it's not so hard to see the light and agree with Ward once and awhile. Just don't make it a habit.

Tom, one other point -- I spoke with Kay and it was decided that no living architect would be featured in the holes they crafted. That's why you don't see any Pete Dye holes.

Frankly, the 18th at Architect's is a dud. The RTJ is sooooo goof because it encapsulates the many aspects that make me walk in a different direction on many RTJ designed layouts.

I was hoping for a conclusion that would really add some vigor to a number of the grand holes that come before it.

One other letdown hole is the replica of Augusta'a 13th hole. It really fails to highlight what Mackenzie is about and I just think the team (Kay & Whitten) missed boat on that one.

One of favorite back-to-back combos at The Architect's is the 14th and 15th. Two really well designed holes that use the terrain in striking fashion. I also think the green at #14 is well done and gives the player an appreciation of what a Perry Maxwell green is like.

Like I said before -- Architect's Club is a fun course and has its moment -- it is not bulletproof by any means. Later this year Jersey Golfer will once again be getting feedback for the top public courses in the state and it will be interesting to see how high it fares -- like I said earlier, it is a bonafide top ten layout among those open to the public in NJ IMHO.

[TEPaul]

"One other letdown hole is the replica of Augusta'a 13th hole. It really fails to highlight what Mackenzie is about and I just think the team (Kay & Whitten) missed boat on that one."

Matt:

Well, thank God we have something to disagree on! #13 wasn't my favorite hole out there but real close to it.

You have to understand something about that course as explained by Stephen Kay. The holes out there are not supposed to be replicas of the dead architect's holes. They're supposed to be original representations of their STYLES only. A few of the holes out there do have some identifiable aspects of some of the holes of those architects but that's about it. #13 does have some identifiable aspects of ANGC's #13 such as the orientation of the green, the fronting hazard to mimic Rae's Creek and the water hazard left to mimic ANGC's hazard left on the drive etc, but that's about all.

However, that particular hole has a number of very interesting strategic elements of its own. That was the hole Stephen and the rest of us really got into discussing the ramifications of a good long player's strategic thinking after watching young Mcdermott bomb it about 75 yards past us all day in super wet (casual water) conditons. Michael Mcdermott is also a very thoughtful golfer clearly interested in golf architecture and strategic ramifications. Stephen asked him if the water on the left would ever give him pause off the tee. Young Mcdermott said it wouldn't as his next tee shot selection would probably be a 4 wood that would also bring the water into play and the fairway was wide enough anyway where he wouldn't think of giving up the tee shot distance to reasonably go for the green in two! BTW, He hit a beautiful shot in there with a good eagle expectation with probably a 6-7 iron.

I said if the fairway was seriously narrowed down around the pond it may give a really long player pause--but that isn't the point of a "go/no go" concept like that hole (ANGC's #13)  is it?

The idea is to tempt the player to bomb his drive to get into position to think about going for that hole in two. The danger of the water on the left on the Architects Club ANGC's #13 representation has that for even the longest players as does ANGC's #13. The fairway width on the AC has that and it should--it should not discourage the long player from using driver despite the danger of water on the left. Playability-wise the second shot for the long player is probably as demanding as ANGC's #13 because of the diagonal and fairly shallow green orientation that follows the fronting creek.

I think all in all strategically this hole may have been my favorite, other than #10 which has something truly interesting strategically for every level (#15 may have been my second favorite strategically all in all!).

You're right that the Perry Maxwell #14 is an interesting hole, The semi-runaway green is excellent as is the hole's mid-body land contour and slope. That's sort of the hole I truly realized these good young players are in another world. Stephen said the last few par 4s are sort of brutes but on the 14th young Mcdermott hit a tee shot on that 452 yard hole just inside the 150 marker and a 9 iron considerably over the green and bogied!! For me in those wet conditions a hole like that is sort of like a short par 5!!

[Mike Worth]

I agree with TEPaul.  13 was a great hole with many strategic elements.  I enjoyed playing it, especially after scoring par 5 with a lost ball.

As I remember it, Matt Wark rated this course #10 (how polite to say it ranked in the top 10).  It is clearly better than #10 in New Jersey

The only weak holes are #1 (a very short par 5 that plays down hill and down wind, as I remember it I hit driver 6 iron) and what ever the shortish par 3 on the front (#6?), which in reality is a replica of a Kay hole from the Links at Unionvale  and not a replica of a great dead architecht.  The only other hole that falls short, IMO is #4 -- While 4 is a good hole, it's supposed to be an Emmet (sp) replica - this hole played 440 into the wind into a relatively flat green.  So I guess I"m saying it falls short as a replica of Emmet's style - I would have expected an Emmet par 4 to be shortish (360-390is) playing into a tricked up little green (LOL)

As I remember Matt Ward's comments to me at the time, Architect's would have been rated higher than #10 in NJ  had the course not been over watered at the time he played it (thus he assumed the course was always over watered). I played shortly after opening and it played very firm and fast.  So much for accepting the input of others, especially when there is an agenda at stake  

But lastly, as a bit of a negative comment, my round exceeded 5 1/2 hours, with the club staff actually taking actions that prolonged the round.  Any one else who played there have a bad experience with an unusually long round?

[ForkaB]

TE Paul

Don't forget to post your score.  The integrity of the USGA handicapping system relies on the voluntary compliance of people like you!

Rich

[Paul Perrella]

Matt,

       Not trying to gang up on you (I know you could take it anyway) but I'm with Tom on his assessment of #13 at Architects. Our group of 8 had no trouble identifying the Architect and loved the options this hole afforded.
        We took a tour of New Jersey and Maryland in the spring and the Architects Club was certainly the surprise of the courses we played. I have played several of the courses of each of the architects featured and found them to be very much in line with their design styles. As mentioned previously, these holes are not reproductions but are fashioned after the style of each designer.
        My group of diehards played the course in a pretty strong rain and still thought it was very good. I would highly recommend this course.

[Matt_Ward]

SS1:

Glad to see you have crawled back out of the hole you inhabit.

Yes, I played The Architect's a few times during it's early period and IT WAS WET -- overly so. Frankly, I could care less what you think because you still have a bug up your arse on my comments on Hidden Creek. I'm happy the club has decided to scale back the water usage -- must have come from knowledgeable sources to do such a thing!

Please knock yourself out and list for me your top ten in order in NJ. I love guys who bark from the cheap seats about Ward's comments but crawl like a cockroach under the floor boards when pressed to state your listings. Please enlighten me on your vast knowledge of Jersey golf -- I'm all ears!

TEPaul:

I never said the holes at Architect's are perfect copies or replicas of the architects they pattern themselves after. I just didn't see the 13th to the level you did.

All in all, the golf course is quite good but the ending hole is really miscast among all the other fine holes you see on the back side.

You are also quite correct on the 10th hole but I would have preferred them having the green be a bit narrower to better magnify the playing angles that Thomas imbued with the 10th at Riviera. Given that Architect's is a public course the wear and tear might have been one reason why that wasn't done.

[Mike Worth]

Good afternoon, Matt

Just for the record, I don't have any bug regarding your Hidden Creek comments.  IMO, they speak for themselves.

You act as though you JUST found out that Architects Club is not over watered anymore -- this cannot be new news to you.  However you punished the course in your rankings because it was overwatered when you played it.  

Sounds like you played Architects when it first opened -- this seems to be a trend of yours.  Perhaps you should wait until a course has been open for a month or two so things sort themselves out -- by using this technique you may not miss as much as seems to be the case now.  I also think in this manner it actually helps to get out of the car and play ALL the holes.  

And you have a very old tired tactic of saying, show me yours, as if you're saying "mine's bigger than yours".  Please, posting my top 10 list is just an excuse for you to go into one of your patronizing rants, sorry, i'm not playing the straight man for that gag.

[Matt_Ward]

SS1 said:

"It is clearly better than #10 in New Jersey."

Nothing like lobbing grenades and then slithering off like always huh? But, that's your standard MO!

I asked you for some guidance on your best NJ courses since you made a comment on mine. Nothing like courage -- right?

Regarding courses I play in the state -- I visit and play all the courses in question. I also make an assessment of courses only when they have officially opened. My rating is also updated as necessary. I have played Architect's about 3-4 times since my review and when the ratings for public courses comes out later this year in Jersey Golfer it will be interesting to see how others who provide their assessments / ratings see it now.

You may not realize this -- ignorance can be bliss for some (hint, hint) -- but when courses officially open they are then rated by media people. I don't set the date for when a course opens -- but I am entitled to draw my opinion after it does. If you don't like my opinions I feel thrilled.

When a course is opened -- it's making a clear statement it's ready to be reviewed. I contact the clubs prior to going and they know the score. If they don't want media people to visit it's very simple -- wait till they think they have something to show.

End of story ...

[Dan Herrmann]

I agree that Architects is a very enjoyable course to play.  I like how their marshall carts have the "Beat the NJ 5" on them - they really try to speed up play in a nice way.  

Speaking of #13 - the last time I played Architects, there was a group of golfers from outside our country in front of us.  They were very slow, and didn't seem to know much about golf.  Anyway, they were in a cart, and actually tried to cross one of those little stone bridges over the creek on #13.  The cart got stuck on the top of the bridge - all 4 of its wheels off the ground, and only its belly on the bridge.

Needless to say, it was one of the strangest and funniest things I've ever seen on a golf course - to see 4 folks try to free the cart without falling into the creek.

Unfortunately, they ended up damaging the bridge and cart.  I was speaking with a marshall afterward and he said that "they see almost everything out here".

-----------------

And I agree with #18 - a boring hole after some real back nine gems.

I wonder if it will ever go private/semi-private.  It's definitely a good enough course.  It'd be a great track to play quickly walking, wouldn't it...

Before I found GCA, I posted a review over at golfcourse.com, and the owner was nice enough to e-mail me a "thank you".  Pretty classy!

[Jay Flemma]

Just wanted to bring back this thread and see what the updated thoughts of the treehouse were.  My favorite hole was 13, the Mack hole (a great par-5 with a wide fwy) and 2 the Macdonald hole, (a par-3 with a great strip bunker around it).  Since Stephen will be talking to the Philly dinner, (and I guess talking a lot about Architect's Club) I thought we break this out to, so we can have a lively discussion of the course.

What holes did all of you find most true-to-the-architect?


Interestingly, when talking with

[Tags:]

Tags: