[Bill Overdorf]

I would like to solicit comments from all out there on the topic of design inclusion of Par 6 golf holes. I have an awesome opportunity to close with a Par 6 of 750 yards (back tees). What have you seen or heard and what do you have to offer? Also, what yardages are accepted (short and long) for this type of hole?

Thanks, Bill

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill;

Nice to see your here.  

It's been my experience that a great par 6 hole is yet to be built.  That doesn't mean that it's impossible, but it's an immense challenge.

I would guess that the hole should be in the 650 and above yard range for a "edge of par" hole and over 720 for something that's a true "four shotter".

That's a lot of acreage to maintain interest on any one golf hole in my opinion.  Probably the best one I've seen is the 2nd hole on the "Silver" nine at Mountain Manor in the Poconos.  It requires a good drive uphill to reach the corner of the dogleg right.  Once done, the second shot narrows the longer one attempt to hit the ball, so reaching for a 3-wood is quite the risk.  A pond fronts the green, so even if one plays two really good shots, going for the green in three requires a downhill 250 yard shot over that pond, or some type of layup.  

Each of the shot has certain demands, which I think would be requisite for any good par six.

Still, despite all of that, and 720 yards later, it's really not that superb of a hole, and is more of an interesting novelty than anything else.

Good luck!

[Tyler Kearns]

Bill,
     La Broquiere Golf Club in La Broquiere, Manitoba has a par 6 that measures a stately 753 yards. The hole is boring, period. The major problem is that the hole was pre-conceived, as a means to attract people to play "The World's Longest Par 6". Personally, a par 6? This is a quirk I can't wrap my skull around, and does not at present fit in to my (narrow?) conception of ideal golf. Why not a 200-ft par 2?

Tyler Kearns

[Brian_Ewen]

Bill
I have played a course in Thailand designed by Desmond Muirhead called StAndrews 2000 . The course has a real mix of holes that in some places look more like a work of art rather than a golf course .

It has two par 6's and like Tyler I found both boring to play . The first one is the 4th hole , it measures 855 yards off the back tees or 790 off the regular tees . It starts with a 230 yard forced carry over a lake , you then play along a strip of land before crossing the same lake again . This could all be avoided by missing out this piece of land altogether , though that would require a drive around 350 yards ! .
The second one is the 13th and it measures 857 yards from the back or 700 yards off the regular tee. This hole has two seperate fairways one higher than the other and it is basically straight ahead .

The holes have been given stroke index 1 and 2 , both holes have very little bunkering and going by the scorecard the green for the first one should be hit in 4 shots , while the second one can be hit in 3 shots !

Because of the forced carry at the first of them , there was sign on the tee , saying it was a local rule that after hitting your tee shot in the water , you may drop on the other side , to speed up play .


Best Regards
Brian

[archie s]

Bill,

Since you solicited our opinions, don't build a six!!!!!

Best of luck,

Archie

[TEPaul]

I'd say the minimum should be around 625yds (and play like it--not longer) and that way if Tiger ever came around he'd have a realistic shot at coming out of his shoes and hitting the green in two and having an opportunity for the rare bird of putting for double eagle!!

But, Bill, whatever the parameters of yardage turn out to be, don't forget when it comes to the minimum to consider the ongoing advancement of technology and add something onto the beginning of the hole in the manner of "future tee length elasticity"!

[John_McMillan]

I would agree with the general advice not to build a par-6 hole.  

The biggest drawback to such a hole would be that it would almost of necessity play much harder for the handicap player than for the scratch player.  If you're asking say a 12 handicap player to make a drive followed by 2 full fairway shots and then an approach, it's hard to see how that combination could be playable for that player, without being fairly easy for a scratch player.  Conversely, it's hard to see how that combination could pose a challenge to a scratch player without being overwhelming for a handicap player.  How many true 3-shot par 5's feature an interesting second shot?  You're building that type of hole - but trying to build TWO of the lay-up shots instead of one.  

Theoretically, it could be done - but I'd bet donuts to dollars that the land which would support that type of hole would support an even better 3-shot par-5.  

[Doug Siebert]

Like Mike C pointed out, a great par 6 has yet to be made.  Whether that's because they are pretty much used as gimmicks or because great designers fear they'd be seen that way and thus avoid them, I don't know, but there aren't many around.  I'd have to give you points for gutsiness to use a par 6 as a closing hole, but it better be one hell of a hole to overcome the par 6 stigma.  If an 18th hole doesn't work it can leave a bad taste in the mouth of a lot of people as they leave the course.  Longer holes like that are also that much harder for poorer players (good way to pad the slope though, I guess) and having a lot of players end their day with a double digit hole isn't going to do any favors for word of mouth, even if it is the first great par 6.

750 sounds kind of short for a back tee measurement, that'd be a wedge to get an eagle chance for a guy like Tiger, and while most of us aren't quite that long, its certainly not going to be any great challenge to hit in three given two relatively solid shots to start out, or a trivial wedge to the green for the 4th for shorter hitters or those who fail to stay in the short grass.

Just thought to point out that it should be easy to calculate the USGA minimum for the hole.  They say scratch players can hit 250, and thus a par 3 is up to 250.  They must assume a second shot can go 220, thus a par 4 is up to 470.  So add 220 more and you get 690 as the minimum for a par 6 by their standards.  But I don't think there are very many 471 yard par 5s being developed anymore, for the back tees par 4s seem to go up to 500 these days, so that 750 is at the realistic minimum today, and won't age well if equipment advances continue unbated by the USGA.

[ian]

Bill,

I have played two, and I didn't like either of them. I don't find any joy in a driver followed by two three woods, before hitting an approach. I do that on most par fours already

Would that be a par 5 for the pros at a US Open?

[Slag_Bandoon]

(Another olde thread)

Bill, I was just wondering what you finally chose to do with this golf hole and how it's coming along?

[Bill Overdorf]

Hi Slag, Many thanks for recreating this thread although the others frequenting this site may be totally disenchanted with the topic of a possible Par 6 venture. It is not necessary to delve into the many aspects of this form of defying tradition and I shall clarify the fact that I had notable misgivings throughout the process. Having considered the many pros and cons of this issue, I have elected to firm up the design of this hole as follows:

From the way-backs the tee shot plays with a drop of 41 feet to the first landing area with a very generous fairway width of about 70 - 75 yards for the mid handicapper at 220 to 250 yards from the middle of five sets of tees. The big spender is welcome to try the hole from the back markers with an opportunity to play his long ball to about 340 yards or so, but to a narrowing landing area short of a brushy wetland. For either player the second shot falls another 12 feet with a choice of landing areas that can be a major determinent in the overall play of the hole. The third shot to a large gentle biarritz green rises about six feet with a linear wetland in the form of a valley short of the approach. An adventure all the way, with-out question. No. 18, by the way.

Oh yeah, Par 5 for the guys and 6 for the ladies. Your feedback will be welcomed.

[Forrest Richardson]

691-yards and up is the critreria compliments of the USGA; 591-yards and up for women. The USGA published par's all the way to par-9 for beginning girls. But for men and wonen, the limit is "6" according to their guidelines.

[Slag_Bandoon]

 ... a large gentle biarritz green...

  The whole hole sounds interesting. Any pictures? How long is this hole?  600+ I'm guessing.   Is this Chuckanut? I am hoping to give you feedback. When does the dancing begin?  

[Birdie's Golf Center]

It would almost appear that I fell asleep half way through my latest re the Par 6 possibility.

The hole is indeed No. 18 at the proposed Chuckanut Ridge (was Chuckanut Crest at an earlier time). 700 yards from the way-backs and 100 yards shorter for the ladies, so it would seem to qualify as a light 6 for both. The jury is still out.  

The latest on this project reflects an interference effort on the part of a local anti-development group that travels under the handle of "Habitat Watch". (Says it all, eh?) To date we have completed about 90% of required clearing but environmental concerns required that we secure all open ground by temporary erosion control practices before a cutoff date in the fall which left us with some clearing yet to go.

Although the antagonist's appeals have to date been thrown out three times they persist in returning with additional efforts to simply make trouble for the developer and the project. The irony seems to lie in the fact that to date they have been able to file appeals at no cost, but this seems destined to change as it is my understanding that any further appeals must be supported by a substantial bond that I feel they can ill afford. That sounds very promising, but the earliest date we have been given for a hearing is mid May with an appeal period of probably 60 days, another hearing some time after that and on and on ad nauseum. Stay tuned.

This track is designed to play as long as about 7,300 yards, a very long test for this climatic area, but given some on-site adjustments to adapt to natural features we should still break 7,200 from the back. We have a very interesting playing  profile with a couple of reasonable 3's and others playing to as long as 215 (back tees), par 5's ranging from 530 to the aforementioned No. 18 at 700 yards, a reachable par 4 on each side; one of 330 yards (middle Tees) slightly downhill dogleg right to a punchbowl green situated on the back side of a brushy wetland and the other of 290 yards slightly uphill in a well bunkered hillside. It will be highly interesting to see it become a reality after all these delays.

[Bill Overdorf]

Slag,

Sorry for the posted reply to your inquiry. Although Birdies Golf Center was a past project of mine, the response should have borne my name as Bill Overdorf.   Oh well, time goes on and on  and   on     and.....

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