[Bill R]

Recently read that Arthur Hills would be "restoring" Manor Country Club in Rockville, MD, to reflect the spirit of the original William Flynn design.  A couple of questions for the Flynn experts out there:

1) How does Manor CC stack up against other, better known Flynn designs?  And how much has it changed over the years?  Is there much Flynn still left?

and

2) Any thoughts about Hills restoration work and the potential success or outcome of a Hills effort to restore a Flynn course?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[TEPaul]

Bill R:

Wayne Morrison and I (we're writing a book on Flynn) went to Manor for the day a couple months ago. We looked over the course with Craig Disher who posts often on Golfclubatlas and later in the day had a get together with a number of members, committee people, maintenance etc and talked over the prospests for some form of restoration to Manor. At that point I understand the club had signed a contract with Art Hills. I've since only heard that Hills has offered the club a restoration plan or made a more comprehensive visit to that end.

I hope Craig Disher sees this thread as he would be the one to answer any questions about the restoration of Manor on here if that's feasible for him to do.

Craig Disher has done an outstanding job of research on this course. One of the most comprehensive research efforts I've seen from a club member anywhere. I just hope the club and the architect avail themselves of all that valuable research he's done and filter it into whatever type of restoration they do.

But this is the course that Flynn did an 18 hole design--one nine he built to those specs and for some reason the other nine (front nine) had it routing basically reversed almost in place and the holes designed by a Harry Collis.

[noonan]

We have a Art Hills course in town.....Pipestone in Miamisburg.....It started with a nice piece of land which he put in about 5 good holes and 13 dogs which include....#2 an unplayable par 5 with a fairway with a 30 degree tilt toward a water hazard that runs 200 yards next to the fairway....no rough to stop the ball....I have seen many shots hit the center or right side of the fairway run 35 yards left into a pond.....after your drop, the ball is approx. a foot above your feet...# 5 a 430 yard par 4 uphill.....the drive of an average golfer of 235 in the air lands in the side of a hill and plugs everytime......leaving you with 195 into a green about 12 paces deep......to get to the top oof the hill from the white tees you would need to hit it 290 + in the air.....#9 a par 4 of 310 where the fairway ends while running downhill at about the 225 mark with no forewarning of such design.....the waste area your drive winds up in you think would be fairway... wayward yellow ball may put your eye out....also the driving range is righ next to this hole and many an incoming...#18 a par 5 ofabout 540.......you must carry the ball 210 to get to the top of a hill but dont hit it further then 235 or you are in the parking lot when the fairway turns 90 degrees left......there are big trees at the crestof the hill you must carry on either side of the fairway......you must threada needle at 200+ yards or you ball bounds back down a 75 foot hill.....

This his only course I have played....this design is tricked up and very unfriendly to someone whose handicap is over 7.

Jerry

[Jim_Kennedy]

Play Art Hills "Dunes" course in Brooksville, Fla.. It's just a stone's throw down the road from World Woods and it is a thoroughly enjoyable experience, especially at the $30.00 or so they charge for an afternoon round.  

[JohnH]

Worked on an Art Hills design in MI for a year and a half, and enjoyed the design very much, although a couple of holes were goofy.  He moves a lot of earth, at least in my experience, due to his moundwork and green complexes...

[Will E]

Before inviting Mr. Hills to your course you should check out his work on Colt's Orchard Lake CC and AMac's University of Michigan course.
I have seen David Esler's work on Flynn's Glen View Club outside of Chicago. I also suggest you investigate this restoration.

John H-
would you name the Hills course in MI that you enjoyed?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

This would seem like the perfect example of GCA being able to assist a club with a restoration, in this case a Flynn restoration.  Who better to assist them and give them guidance then you and Wayne.

I would hope that CDisher can assist in having the committee seek your counsel, going forward.

The question is, would Art Hills welcome it and work with you ?

[ChipOat]

Pat Mucci:

Isn't the first question, "is anybody at the club interested"?

Usually the answer is, "no".

[noonan]

Here is 18 at Pipestone

[JohnH]

Shooter -

Stonebridge GC in Ann Arbor.  A top 10 new public in Golf Digest when opened in '91 I believe.

[noonan]

Hole #2

On the course website....it states that the fairway slopes severely toward the pond.

Jerry

[Craig Disher]

BillR,
I consider Manor's current course only a rough approximation of Flynn's original plans. As TEPaul pointed out, only 9 of Flynn's holes were built (we still have a short, 9-hole course which Flynn designed; it is virtually unchanged). When they're compared to Flynn's hole drawings, it's apparent we're missing many of Flynn's intended strategies. Part of the reason is that some of Flynn's bunkers weren't built and part of the reason is that the course has been neglected for many years and subject to the usual afflictions of older courses - overplanting and overgrowth of trees, green and fairway shrinkage, etc. Fortunately, Flynn's routing and seven of his greens are still intact and the topography hasn't been altered since construction in 1926.

I would rather defer to Tom and Wayne to say how the plans stack up to Flynn's other work. After seeing the Manor plans for the first time last summer, I was impressed. Manor is certainly not in Shinnecock Hills' or Boca South's league but it is a design that incorporates classic features and makes excellent use of the sparse natural features on the back 9.

Sadly, the land for the front 9 was much more interesting and Flynn's plan took great advantage of the natural slopes and streams there. For several reasons, his plan was never built and what we have now is a set of holes built in four different eras starting with Collis in 1929 and ending with Chip MacDonald in 1998.

We've hired Arthur Hills to develop a master plan which will address all these problems and give us an 18-hole course which as much as possible follows Flynn's design ideas consistently through all 18 holes. Hills' team seems as enthusiastic as we are to create something that Flynn would recognize as his own.

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