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Adam_F_Collins

Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus - The Positives
« on: June 14, 2004, 11:24:14 PM »
I'm serious.

There's a lot of love heaped on a few architects here, (most of them dead) and I'm sure that it's well deserved.

At the same time, I notice an awful lot of heat aimed at Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus.

Now, I am a newbie at this whole subject, and before I began to read this forum, I would have imagined that Tom and Jack were pretty damned good architects. I mean, Tom Fazio does a lot of work - including the recent changes made at the sacred ANGC...

Jack also does a lot of work and gets some damed fine opportunities, including his most recent collaboration with one of the few living architects to be favored on this forum...

So let's have it. What do people like about these guys? I've never played a Fazio course and only played Glen Abbey from Jack, so I don't know much. What's the deal?

I don't want any attacks here this time so please. In their best work, what are their strengths? (And let's keep it architectural here - no one needs another rant about how good they are at marketing).

I know that many of you dislike the works of these guys, and if you know of no positive aspects, then fine. But if you use your best, unbiased critical thinking...

...what're the positives?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus - The Positives
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2004, 01:53:25 AM »
Adam,
Jack Nickalus and Golden Bear Design--An Architecture firm that I believe is firmly trying to enter the non-mainstream artesan market.  I really do think they are going to do their typical packaged courses, but when you look at courses like Mayacama, Eldorado, the collarboration with Tom Doak--This is clearly a group that wants to do GREAT work, that wants to be cut loose and create.  I give them credit for trying to do so, and I will make atempts to see these courses soon.

Tom Fazio--Clearly the most successful golf architect working today. Far from being an artist. He's more of a builder/general contractor with a team of sub-contractors that will build exactly to his specs with no expense spared.  A nice man who clearly spends a lot of time giving to charities for children. Most raters and panelists love him for his warmth, sincerity and his ability to over-build thus making the Game further out of reach for the average beginning golfer.

His golf courses--the major body of them that recieve architectural praise are usually because of either Andy Banfield (sp) or Mike Strantz. Fazio and Associates clearly have no business restoring old classic golf courses--they are horrible at it. Senior Associate Tom Marzaltov is full of himself and also has little knowledge of Classic Golf Course design. He contradicts himself often.  If he is indeed consulting with Pine Valley, this would explain a lot of the cleaning-up of that is reportedly going on there, thus has no business being there.

Seeing I went off on Fazio, I got away from the point of the thread--I don't care!

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus - The Positives
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2004, 09:27:32 AM »
... I went off on Fazio, I got away from the point of the thread--I don't care!

 ;D

Good effort though, Tommy. You've got to be given points for that.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus - The Positives
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2004, 02:31:39 PM »
Two days, one response. Tough crowd on this subject...

Are they really that bad?



Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus - The Positives
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2004, 02:50:51 PM »
I've never been to a Fazio course, so cannot comment, but I have seen Nicklaus's 3 signature courses in the UK, and played two of them: Carden Park, The London, St Mellion.  

Carden Park is about 30 miles from where I live.  It is featureless.  There are a couple of holes on which there are strategic options, and the obligatory lake holes, but I'd rather play Portal (Donald Steel) or Mottram Hall (Dave Thomas) if I had to pick a modern course locally.

The London Club has two courses, one a Nicklaus signature course, the other by his company, unsigned, as it were.  This one I've not played, but I was given a hole-by-hole tour of both courses by a member of staff.  They're in gently rolling country south-east of London close to Brands Hatch motor racing circuit.  Again, my impression was of something rather featureless - I had to find something positive to write about the courses and maybe I would have found more had I played the courses, but somehow I doubt it.  I have the course planners to hand yet remember almost nothing about them.

I loved St Mellion in Cornwall.  True, there are a few bland holes up on the level ground by the clubhouse, but the holes in both valleys had real character and quite a lot of originality.  I was then playing about 50 shots a round better than I am now (ie a 50-50 chance of breaking 100) and I found myself relishing the prospect of so man y of the tasks set.  On the same trip I played West Cornwall, St Enodoc, Trevose, Lanhydrock, Thurlestone, Yelverton, Manor House Hotel, Westward Ho and Saunton so I had a good set of yardsticks by which to judge it.  It's probable that Mike Clayton has played this one on tour and would probably come up with a very different assessment, but from my amateur viewpoint it's a course on which the holes have remained clearly etched in the mind quite some years later.  Nicklaus is said to have reckoned this to be one of his better efforts.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus - The Positives
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2004, 02:58:06 PM »
Mark,
Simply go to one of those wonderful London area parks, find the highest point of ground and look down to the lowest point.  Be creative an dthink of some really nice looking bunkers that really don't figure much into any kind of strategy, some of them simply out of play, acting more as a directional device for the correct line of play, and that's a patented Fazio original.  

Oh, and I almost forgot. Add a riparian, rock laden creek or brook running down the length of the hole feeding a rock-walled pond.  

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus - The Positives
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2004, 02:58:23 PM »


I think Brian Phillips will be able to give a good view of the Nicklaus portfolio.  He has been critical in the past on this site.  I have never played a Nicklaus course, but it seems he is getting better reviews on his most recent work.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus - The Positives
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2004, 03:20:24 PM »
Hamilton,

That is really nice of you..

I have never played a Nicklaus course but I like Muirfield Village from what I saw on tv.  I have critisised his book once for a huge mistake in the book but have also said recently that it is a very educational book and worth buying.

What are you getting at Hamilton?  

Brian.




« Last Edit: June 16, 2004, 03:32:32 PM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus - The Positives
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2004, 03:39:49 PM »
Brian
Not to speak for Ham, but note that he said you had been critical ON this site, not OF this site.
Sarge
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus - The Positives
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2004, 03:41:57 PM »
Sarge,

Thanks, the post is now modified.

Cheers

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus - The Positives
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2004, 04:35:16 PM »
I am surprised that this thread has not generated more commentary. I guess I have played or seen at least a half dozen of each. So my take on the positives:

Nicklaus' older designs did not inspire me. The links course at Bear Lakes is really bad, little humps configured between parallell fairways just drive me nuts, you'll see these at grand cypress as well if I recall. Avila in Tampa is better as far as design goes, but stone walled water hazards in Tampa FL don't seem to work for me. His more recent work is showing some good things, Colleton River is quite an achievement with good routing around and through the tidal marshes. I have yet to see Bears Club or Ritz Carlton-Jupiter, but from the photos they look quite good. So I'll say Nicklaus has grown into a quality course design team. I don't think I am alone in that assessment.

As for Tom Fazio, I can't say that I see much difference between most of his courses. PGA Village North and South, Palmetto Dunes, Georgian Resort, Belfair all have a similar feel and leave me underwhelmed. None of these are bad courses. They are more pleasing to the eye than some of Nicklaus' older work. World Woods Pine Barrens is pretty spectacular architecturally, and nearby Black Diamond Ranch Quarry has great routing on the quarry holes, combined with interesting green contouring. The rest of the quarry course is not as spectacular, nor could it be. So maybe I will say that Tom Fazio can do some interesting and good stuff when he gets a unique piece of land to work with, and then there is the other extreme with Shadow Creek (not played by me), where he appears to have pulled off a good one with no land but a big budget. I wonder if this will get me an acknowledgement from the newly created Fazio Society.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

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