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Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Trump on Shinnecock
« on: June 16, 2004, 09:20:46 AM »
Anyone see the 19th Hole last night on the Golf Channel? I believe I heard The Donald say that links courses (including Shinnecock) just aren't that attractive. He also said (twice) that one of his new courses took much of what he likes at Winged Foot (where he is a member) and then added even better stuff—like a monsterous artificial waterfall behind one of the greens. They showed some video footage of it—looks like damn Niagra Falls coming down a few feet from the hole.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2004, 09:25:02 AM »
The self-annointed king of ny, must be right. After all, NY is the center of the known universe, the home of the few, the proud, the RTR.

 :o

JDoyle

Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2004, 09:37:27 AM »
Dan,

I saw this interview and Trump's comments were a joke.  You would think that someone who was in the golf business - spenting millions and building course would have some sorta clue, e.g. that waterfalls only detract from the golf experience.

Trump kept talking about how much he loved Winged Foot.  But never filled in the WHY box.  The three other hosts were terrible.  Could there have been more kissing-up to the Donald going on.  Perhaps they were job hunting while on-air.

One of my thoughts after watching this was that we need a GCA show on the Golf Channel.  How about a 30 minute show that focuses on one great course per week.  Could be classical or modern.  Show the history, discuss the designer, and WHY this course is special - strategy, routing, penal, heroic, surrounds, etc.  I think there are plenty of golfers out there who would be interested in understanding why PVGC is #1.  There would be many clubs that would say no thanks - but many who would welcome the attention.  Certainly the Golf Channel has plenty of room in their schedule.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2004, 09:38:54 AM by Jonathan Doyle »

TEPaul

Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2004, 09:42:07 AM »
What Donald Trump said about Shinnecock and how he's improved the look of Winged Foot on his new course is a perfect example of why the "Big World Theory" exists and must exist!

"Golf and it's architecture is a great big thing and there really is room in it for everyone."

The point, however, is to keep people who think like the Donald away from doing ANYTHING to courses like Shinnecock and Winged Foot!

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2004, 09:45:38 AM »
Tom
What's wrong with a waterfall behind the 10th green at Winged Foot West? ;D

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Don't take Trump serious on business, golf, or women
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2004, 09:53:22 AM »
Jonathan:

Trump on golf is meant to be taken with a dose of suspicion.  I think most of America pines to play one of his courses and those who know enough to care about architecture understand that he's just being Donald.  Trump is ostentacious and his courses reflect that.  I enjoyed the one in West Palm, so I don't think you can say waterfalls detract from the experience for everyone.  It MAKES the course what it is - a charicature on grass.

As for TGC programming... I think it sucks.  But one thing about TV is that ratings tell the story.  They get more viewers by recycling footage from events Tiger won or by trotting "founder" Arnold Palmer out for an interview than they ever could by profiling courses most of America will never have access to.

I assume that people here are fairly avid golfers and have been for some time.  For those who aren't, golf can be tormenting.  All of their instruction feeds off this.  Kessler is profiled on the coming Golfweek coverstory and it talks about 200,000 Perfect Clubs sold - a staggering number.  Who's buying?  Obviously the sap that is watching TGC.

I wish the programming were better.  Let's hope it gets there.  I doubt it will.

What TGC lacks (all shows I sketched out on a pad when in graduate school hoping to get a job there.  I finished and needed to go to work before they launched, so I never really had a chance to apply.  Their first employees needed were functional people like cameramen, etc..):
* "Biography" - a real profile of the lives of golf luminaries like A&E does for people from all walks of life
* a decent travel feature that becomes part of a regular schedule.  Much of their travel stuff smacks of advertorial and hits Las Vegas or other cliche golf resorts.
* a show on great golf courses (different than the travel aspect) that you mention.  Could be used to show people places they never could get to like Oz, South Africa, Bermuda, and China as well as private clubs.
* a show on golf architects and an explanation of their body of work
* A real show on golf business analyzing trends.  Most of their news is reporting events after the fact.

JDoyle

Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2004, 10:10:45 AM »
John,

I agree with what you have said.  The Golf Channel needs CONTENT in a big way.  How many "Swing the Handle" paid programs can they continue to schedule?

They do a good job around the time of the majors - but in October and beyond they need help.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2004, 10:52:23 AM by Jonathan Doyle »

Robert Kimball

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2004, 10:37:12 AM »

"Golf and it's architecture is a great big thing and there really is room in it for everyone."

The point, however, is to keep people who think like the Donald away from doing ANYTHING to courses like Shinnecock and Winged Foot!

I couldn't agree more!!  Hey, let The Donald spend all this money on his golf course ventures.  It's his business, and odds are that I will never play any of them, or have the opportunity.  But I doubt he would have the patience or temperment to sit on a greens board at his clubs. . .  

And I think I see a career change for Tommy N -- the host of Golf Channel's new series on classical golf architecture.  First episode: "The Tao of Rees."  

Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2004, 10:50:41 AM »
I believe Trump said that, in his opinion, Links style courses "just are not as beautiful" as modern, American type courses.  He did say that he took the good from Winged Foot (which he identified as his favorite US Open venue) and made it better at his course by adding features and amenities such as the waterfall (which he described at least twice).  

As we discussed in the Pinehurst thread -- many, many, many golfers today, including the Donald, are more impressed by and attracted to the "beauty" of the course than subtle architectural features we rave about on here.  That is why his courses get the attention that they do.  That is why some of the modern architects (much maligned on this site) often talk of their courses in terms of how they look and photograph.

It is just that simple -- as Mike Young stated, most golfers can't name 5 golf architects, and probably can't list the "top 10" courses in America.  They just like pretty courses.  

Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2004, 11:04:56 AM »
Charming, not to mention -- he brought out Ms. Universe!  

A friend was recently invited to play at Seminole.  As his host's plane pulled into the hanger, Trump's huge jet was parked inside.  Someone commented that Trump often flies in the cast of Baywatch.  You gotta love it.

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2004, 11:09:29 AM »
Donald Trump can't understand anything he can't buy and the traditiion and style and class of Winged Foot or Shinnecock is way over his head.  Donald, Tillie just called and "You're Fired"!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2004, 11:11:08 AM »
I for one would prefer to see a program along the lines of that old Payboy After Hours show they had on in the 60s where Heff would do a sort of Johnny Carson panel of guests drop-in shot from the Chicago Apartment.  In the Golf Channel version, Ran would be there in his mauve colored smoking jacket and Mersham pipe, broadcast live from his sumptuous den there in Southern Pines, and he would have various archies and amatuer golf commentators who regularly post on his website as guests on the couch.  INsightful interviews would insue.  Trump would only appear on the show to halwk his latest extravaganza waterfall ridden project, in his orangatang wig and court jester clown suit.  The faithful sidekick and announcer would be Tommy in a tutu.  Very sexy programming in deed. :P 8) :-*

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2004, 11:11:48 AM »
If The Donald is wrong, then why does the Masters pull such huge ratings, while the British Open does not? If the Donald is wrong, why do so many golfers list Augusta National as the course they would most like to play (I'm guessing Pebble Beach would be #2), whereas Shinnecock, Muirfield, Sand Hills, etc., don't show up in those kinds of surveys?

He's just expressing the common man's opinion about what's pleasing to him. This forum caters to golfers with a different aesthetic sense, and though I don't share Trump's opinion, I'm not even going to say our taste is better than his.

Well, okay, it is better, but our view is never going to become mainstream. Trump sells gauche and gaudy (you saw the inside of his penthouse apartment on "The Apprentice," right?) and America, in general, is buying. The Golf Channel isn't likely to risk going broke trying to change that.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2004, 11:32:47 AM »
Rick,

You make a great point regarding what the common golfer thinks defines great.  If you were to take 100 average golfers who do not participate in GCA out to play both the par 3 10th at Winged Foot and that Waterfall par 3 at Trump National, I bet 75 out of 100 would prefer the Waterfall hole.  

There's nothing wrong with that, everyone has different tastes.  It's the subtle and strategic features of the 10th at Winged Foot that make it great while the Waterfall tries to hit you over the head with the Wow factor.  

rgkeller

Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2004, 11:37:54 AM »
Tom
What's wrong with a waterfall behind the 10th green at Winged Foot West? ;D

Steve

And just think of how a nice waterfall would complement the features of the redan at Shinnecock Hills.

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2004, 12:41:21 PM »
Donald understands that class should NEVER get in the way of a good promotional campaign.  

At least he is consistent......you gotta luv that.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2004, 01:17:19 PM »
The only thing more artifical  than Donald's waterfalls is his hair style which falls over his forehead like a waterfall.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2004, 01:24:51 PM »
Trump is a knucklehead when it comes to golf, why do we even discuss him?
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2004, 01:33:37 PM »
'If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people He gave it to.'  -  Dorothy Parker

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2004, 02:52:02 PM »
Another mountebank.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2004, 02:59:29 PM »
Bob --

Who -- Trump or Parker?
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2004, 03:15:57 PM »
Rich,

Trump. Dorothy Parker was just neurotic.

Bob

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump on Shinnecock
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2004, 03:36:39 PM »
If The Donald is wrong, then why does the Masters pull such huge ratings, while the British Open does not?

Because CBS produces the hell out of The Masters, and because it is played at the end of what is, for many people, a long winter, and because people at that time of the year are hungry for golf. And, yes, because Augusta National has been such a great and exciting tournament course -- and remains such a freakish display of ... for lack of a better word ... perfection. When I was there this spring, for the first (and likely last) time, I kept thinking of "Pleasantville." Or was it "The Truman Show"? I always mix them up.

And because ABC covers the British Open,and doesn't produce the hell out of it, and shows it on Saturday and Sunday mornings here in the United States, in the middle of the summer, and because, yes, the links are harder to appreciate than Augusta National -- in part, I think, because the color of the links makes it harder to see the ball.

If the Donald is wrong, why do so many golfers list Augusta National as the course they would most like to play (I'm guessing Pebble Beach would be #2), whereas Shinnecock, Muirfield, Sand Hills, etc., don't show up in those kinds of surveys?

Because of much of what I've said above -- but mostly because they see Augusta year after year after year, to the point where they *know* the course though they've never set foot on the property. That knowledge makes them *hungry* to see and play it. Those same people see Shinnecock once every decade or so; they see Muirfield every trip through the rota (and I, for one, think it's hard to "get" Muirfield on TV); they see Sand Hills ... never!

He's just expressing the common man's opinion about what's pleasing to him. This forum caters to golfers with a different aesthetic sense, and though I don't share Trump's opinion, I'm not even going to say our taste is better than his.

Well, okay, it is better, but our view is never going to become mainstream. Trump sells gauche and gaudy (you saw the inside of his penthouse apartment on "The Apprentice," right?) and America, in general, is buying. The Golf Channel isn't likely to risk going broke trying to change that.

Call me Pollyanna (I've been called Pollyanna -- and worse! -- before), but I don't see any reason to think that "our view" (generally speaking) couldn't become mainstream, or at least considerably more mainstream -- if Joe and Judy Wineglass-Sixpack were more regularly *exposed* to courses more interesting for their golf merits than for their waterfalls. How in the hell are they supposed to appreciate the sorts of courses they rarely see?

We need The Golf Channel (and the magazines) to offer such exposure. I envision, for The Golf Channel, a weekly hour-long show (along the lines of "Great Railway Journeys of the World," with an "Endless Summer Meets Click and Clack" kind of sensibility) chronicling a trip to a classic golf course, old or new ... a trip led by, say, a couple of Midwestern golf-nut newspapermen. You available?

Take about your Big Break!

They're never gonna do it -- but what the hell! A girl can dream!

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

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