[Mike Hendren]

Logistics aside, would Sand Hills be defenseless against a U.S.Open field absent a howling wind?  

Mike

[A_Clay_Man]

Not the field, just the crowds, and the native grasses.

Mike, your post works on so many levels  

Score is the crux, give-up on the number, and every course will not become defensless, they will come alive with excitement.

[THuckaby2]

I think it could stand up fine enough.  They might need a few yards added, and there sure is room for that.  But assuming firm and fast conditions - which is a very fair assumption - even if miraculously there is no wind, the greens are tough enough such that they wouldn't go too low.  And hell, even if they did, wouldn't it be fun to see?

I am no big believer in defending par.  Oh sure, you don't want -24 to win an Open.  But I believe Sand Hills could stand up and perhaps 275 at the lowest would be the winning score.  Get some good wind and par will be defended.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Shivas,

If 90,000 can gather in a field near Manchester, Tennessee for Bonnaroo III anything is indeed possible.  A bonus of my trip last week to Lookout Mountain CC was driving home with the Bonnaroo crowd cued up for five miles in the right-hand median.  When's the last time you saw a guy skate-boarding down an interstate? Or a guy pushing a shopping cart loaded with 12-packs in the right-hand lane?  Or young ladies --- never mind

Tom,

Given the USGA's self-appointed role of defending par, I'm not sure Sand Hills would hold up unless they made it something other than Sand Hills.  There again, that might be true for a lot of places.  

Mike  

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

I dunno - I think it would hold up fine enough, as I say.  They can make it plenty long if they wish.  Sure, that won't be "Sand Hills" as you and I know it, but we wouldn't venture back to those tees... If anything it would be pros playing at least somewhat similar clubs to the greens that you and I do, and that sure is Sand Hills to me.  I'd like to see them do it.

Now what would be hellaciously stupid is if they grew high rough and squeezed in the fairways... The hope is that USGA folks with imagination enough to get the thing to Sand Hills to begin with couldn't possibly be that stupid once it got there.

But we'll see what happens at Shinnecock this week... It is analagous...

TH

[Lou_Duran]

If I was a member at Sand Hills I wouldn't just say no to the US Open, but HELL NO!  The site is much too delicate and I'd hate to think what the droves of people would do to the dunes and native vegetation.  Besides, it is not a medal score course, which would perhaps result in more timid play than the one already found at most US Open venues.

[Brian_Gracely]

So far this discussion has ignored one simple but critical aspect.....would Mr.Youngscap even be interested in hosting such an event?  Having never been to Sand Hills or met the man, I have no idea.  Lots of exclusive courses (Pine Valley, Seminole, Cypress Point, LACC, etc.) have not sought to extend the USGA an invitation.  

Any thoughts from those that have met the man or possibly discussed around the idea of him hosting a USGA event (while you hung out on Ben's Porch)?

[THuckaby2]

Brian:

The whole idea is so far-fetched based on the reality of how all this works, I assumed it's just a given for purposes of this discussion that Mr. Youngscap - and the members - would want such a thing.  Hell yes is that far from a good assumption though!

So yes, that's obviously the first of about 1000 logistical hurdles to overcome to make this dream come true.  But Mike said "logistics aside", so at least I am just talking about how the course would hold up.

And Lou - again the assumption must be that spectators are SEVERELY limited, and all TV logistics are done with the greatest of care.  Remember, Mike said "logistics aside."

[Brian_Gracely]

Tom,

Logistics aside??...then why aren't we having a discussion about hosting the US Open on the moon?    Sure, the ball/distance debate would take center stage, and there would be those constant video clips of Armstrong and Peterson, but think about what Tom Fazio or Rees Jones could do with that canvas!!  Can you image the pot bunkers?  

[Mike Hendren]

Let me re-direct the thread despite my caveat of logistics aside.  Assume a) ownership/membership would embrace the event; b) a resurgence in the pioneer spirit for participants, media and gallery that leads to pitching tents and renting motor homes; and c) limiting the gallery to 5,000 tree-huggers who would rather vote for W than damage the environment.  

Then, would the golf course its ownself be a good playground for the national championship?

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Brian:  hey, I just follow the rules.  Read Mike's post.

But a Lunar Open sounds good to me!

 

[SJ_McCarthy]

Truthfully, I don't know what logistics go into an Open.  But North Platte is not even an hour away, and you can certainly house all the workers there and make them do what every other worker in America does -- commute!  And it should be no problem for people in North Platte to rent out their houses for a week to workers/fans/players, etc.  

Actually, having the workers commute is not at all a reasonable theory.  here is why.  The tent guys, bleacher guys, TV guys etc etc all work on average (average being key so it can be more)15 hour day for the WEEKS leading up to the Open, then adding 2 hours on top of the 15 hour day for the commute would leave a whopping seven hours for sleep, laundry, showeing etc, do the math, it will never work.

Players?  There are some cottages.  That should be a perk for the top money list guys.  Everybody else?  Rent a John Daly-mobile.  If it's good enough for DLIII and JD, it's good enough for a week.  

If you could find enough of those Prevost coaches that were of high enough caliber, yes, this idea could work.  However, seeing that the price on these (to buy) is in excess of $3 million, the rental rate for one week would be close to $10,000.  Now, keep in mind, those units need to be staged, powered, cleaned and then the reverse after it's done, so what happens now is you have a minimum of 3 week rental.  Thats $30k per player X 150 players = $ 4,620,000.00 in lodging alone.

And God knows, there's enough land to have thousands of RV's parked. IN fact, SH happens to have one thing going for it that a lot of courses don't -- plenty of room for parking!

Food?  Truck it in.  TV?  No issue.  Satellite.  If they can show us a war in Iraq on live TV, they can certainly show us the Open in Nebraska.  Corporate tents?  No problem.  How many do you want?  We've got plenty of room for them.  

Food is almost always trucked in regardless of venue, there isn't a Golf Club out there with enough kitchen space to provide food service for in excess of 30k people.  Just look next time you are at a tournamant, Sysco trucks EVERYWHERE.

TV is always broadcast via satellite and fibre feeds.  No network in their right mind would let the entire US Open hinge on only a satellite feed.  Networks always plan for a minimum of redundancy if not in triplicate.  Lose the feed, lose the ad revenue.

The wind is an issue for the caliber of tents available in the US.  Most tents used for this are capable of standing up to (in reality) 50+ MPH every now and then.  European tents are much better quality and have much higher wind tolerances.

Guys, let's not forget, the most famous rock concert in history, Woodstock, drew half a million people to a cornfield in the middle of nowhere.  That's what made Woodstock SPECIAL and that's what would make an Open at SH perhaps the most special Open in history!!  I can just see it now:  30 years from now, we'd be telling our grandkids that we were at the Open when they held it at Sand Hills.  They'd be in awe, just like we are when we hear aobut people who were at Woodstock.

Let's not also forget the fact that Woodstock was a LOSS for the promoters for just that reason.  It is estimated that Woodstock LOST almost $6 million (if you convert it to 2004 dollars that is OVER 10 million) once you figure in all of the costs including state & federal assistance.  I think we all know one thing, the USGA never loses money, and certinaly if they do, it's not much!

[A_Clay_Man]

I have no doubt that the course would identify the best player.

Is there more than that?

[THuckaby2]

Shivas, you wise man - that's exactly what I've been trying to say, in too few, too poorly-chosen words.

There certainly is room for the few additional back tees needed.  And yes, it if is firm and fast - an absolute given - it will hold up.  The greens alone will be enough.

TH

[tlavin]

The spectators who fork over huge American dollars at US Opens would not segue into an impromptu, hypnotic, mass participation bout of mud dancing should a rain storm break out.  That's an indirect way of stating the obvious: There is no way that Sand Hills would ever get selected as a site for a US Open, even if the course is worthy of the event.  The USGA is a not-for-profit, but they use the Open as their primary revenue maker so they can fund their charitable operation.  They don't need to make major market money on every Open, but they have to make a fair bit of dough in order to justify the enormous work involved in hosting this championship.

[SJ_McCarthy]

Well then you need to be stunned.  There is no way possible for the USGA to run an Open at SH and NOT lose money.  Keep in mind here, I am not saying SH is not worthy of an Open, it's just that it would be fiscal suicide to even try it.

How is it fair to expect that patrons of a NY event would be footing an additonal $20 per to fund a WEST coast event?  Is that a reasonable request?

SH is a special place because it is not anything like any other area where there has been an Open in the past, no infrastructure = no Open.  Has nothing to do with the quality of the course itself.

You say the USGA does not charge enough for tickets?  In who's opinion?  Remember, there are MANY people who buy tickets that think the cost is too high.  In other words, their income is not close to what yours and or others on this site might be and it's certinaly a tough choice for some of these famalies to attend.

A "slight" loss at SH?  I already ran you some quick numbers.  What do you consider slight?  In the case of SH the additonal costs (above and beyong a normal Open venue) could exceed $15 million, thats not slight to anyone on this site.

Woodstock was of course not on TV, had no ad revenue, but again, if it did, would that many people have gone if it were on TV?  Would it hold such a "special place" in our hearts?  I think not.

Shivas, I agree, it would be cool to have an Open at SH, just completley unrealistic

In would be stunned if the USGA couldn't run the Open at break even, but even assuming they couldn't, they are reaping huge windfalls from NYC metro Opens that could be applied toward that.  Also, the truth is that the USGA doesn't charge enough for Open tickets.  If they did, they wouldn't sell out every fricking year so easily and quickly.  They should raise prices to the point where the Open might not sell out.  Push that envelope in NYC and charge an extra $20 a head, and you've got the dough to take a slight loss at the Open at SH.

BTW, was Woodstock televised and what exactly were its advertising revenues?  

[Tony_Chapman]

I'll bet you Tom is just waiting for a Husker to chime in this whole issue!!   And, I think Shivas must want to become a Husker, being we got a Chicago native coaching us now!!  

Anyway, my $.02 is that this would never happen, but the people of our state would eat it up if it did. Heck, I would drive 3 1/2 hours a day from Grand Island to volunteer for that sucker.

The obvious logistics are where would people stay, etc. My guess is if you limited the tickets to like 20,000 a day, you could have people park in North Platte and Ogallala and then ship them to the place. Or, my guess is you could get Joe Rancher from Mullen or Thedford to give up a 1,000 acres to the USGA for the week to let folks park in the grass.

Selling 1-day tickets would be fine, but selling a week long pass for 4-day set would be tough, just because of the lodging issues.

But, remember we are resourceful bunch. We pack 76,000 sreaming goofballs into a Stadium in Lincoln every Saturday in the fall and most of them drive at minimum 2 hours to see the game. In fact, I would be willing to venture 30-40% of the season ticket holders drive at least 3 hours to the Lincoln for home games.

If Mr. Youngscap, the SH members and the USGA wanted this to happen the people of Nebraska would most definately get behind it to make sure it happened.

[Tony_Chapman]

Mr. Shivas and I were obviously thinking the same thing at the same time.  

[THuckaby2]

Again I find all this to be a given, in the other conversation anyway.  Take it to places like this and local support - make that overwhelmingly huge local support - won't be an issue.

Of course re Sand Hills though, Lou Duran is correct - too many people on those grounds and the place is ruined.  We don't want that.  Thus if this is going to fly logistically, they're going to have to severely limit attendance, and recoup the earnings some other way.  I like shivas' idea of one local benefactor making it happen as the most likely idea here.  Either that or they charge VERY high prices for tickets... which also might work...

TH

[Brad Swanson]

How many avid golfers are there in Nebraska, Kansas, Iowa, Colorado?  Do you know why college sports are SO huge in places like this?  Because it's the only game in town.  You hand these people an Open and I'm telling you, they're on it like white on rice.  

This is very true, as was evidenced when the Senior U.S. Open was held at Des Moines Golf and CC and the place was packed to the rafters (although not a fair comparison as a few more people live in Des Moines than in Mullen  ).

Personally, the course being a superb match play course, I think I'd prefer to see a Ryder Cup there.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Kevin_Reilly]

Corporate tents?  No problem.  How many do you want?  We've got plenty of room for them.

Plenty of room for them, and likely plenty of room in them.  You need corporations, employees and clients to fill those tents.  Lots of 'em.  Selling those tents would be a difficult task...people who attend Opens via these corporate tents are not GCA-types.  

[Tony_Chapman]

Shivas - I may add that people in Nebraska selected GOLF as their #1 sport in the recent Sports Illustrated that profile our state.

[Lou_Duran]

Am I the only one who questions the suitability of Sand Hills as an Open venue from a playability standpoint?  Will the "best golfer" really be identified?  Or will it be the guy who gets the most breaks and avoids lost balls and rabbit holes?  I remember our host finding such a depression to the right of the fantastic 17th hole, and hadn't he picked the ball up after several shots, he might still be there.  There are so many places where a drop is not an option, that walking back to the tee or the position of the previous shot would make an already slow tournament reach glacial proportions.  On a windy day, my fear is that the play would be punched irons, chipping, and putting.  I guess that I like the driver and bold play too much.

Since this is all fantasy anyways, will Mr. Youngscap have a satellite controlled shade up in space muting the sun?  Perhaps June is not so bad in the plains of NE, but thank God for trees here in north Texas.

[Brian_Gracely]

Am I the only one who questions the suitability of Sand Hills as an Open venue from a playability standpoint?  Will the "best golfer" really be identified?  Or will it be the guy who gets the most breaks and avoids lost balls and rabbit holes?  

Lou,

Who gets to define what "best golfer" is?  And are you advocating that the course be fair and devoid of bad bounces, poor lies or inconsistencies?  

What better place that Sand Hills for the USGA to show that learning the rules is REALLY important and all the obscure references to rabbit holes in The Rules of Golf are not just some useless cut & paste from a time long ago.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Lou- All of those things, that might happen to an errant (or any) shot. They are where, and when, the golfer is tested the most on many levels. Your intrepretation appears to rely on some notion of fairness. So what if a guy has to keep hacking it out? That's golf. If the rounds are too slow, cut the size of the field. The elements alone, 11.2 miles south of Mullen are extreme enough, to challenge and challenge in a world class way. Perhaps your view represents where the game has gotten away from core values, such as the ability to recover from adversity.

If I were Dick Youngscap, or the members who decides these matters, and I wanted my course to have international exposure, I'd stick with the theme of thinking out of the box. I'd invite a specific number to attend (similar to the masters) and not allow spectators. Cover the thing, from every concievable angle, and sell it on pay per view. No crowds, Nothing more than your average day at Sand hills, just with 48 of the best golfers who accepted an invitation.

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