News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #175 on: June 18, 2015, 02:23:47 PM »
. . . I would like to thank David for posting the Golf Committee report all in one piece.  Just to clarify for me, are the four paragraphs one contiguous piece in the minutes?  I'm confused by the opening quotes for each paragraph with no closing quote.  Is that the way it is in the original?  Does that usage of quotation mean something?  Does it suggest there are parts missing between the paragraphs?
Sorry for the confusion. I added the quotation marks so as to make clear I was quoting, just in case the blue text was not enough. Placing quotation marks at the beginning of the paragraph with no closing quotes (until the end of the entire quote) is standard punctuation indicating that multiple consecutive paragraphs are being quoted. The entire passage set out in blue is a single quote, with the paragraph breaks as indicated in the original.  Comparing the quote to the image I have, I cannot see to the bottom of the page, so I don't know for sure that it ends where I suggest, but I assume it does.  Next time I'll just stick to the color, I guess.
___________________________________________
Per your email, the "obvious reasons" I wanted you to post the Minutes were so I wouldn't be accused of being a Homer who may have somehow edited or tampered with their contents.  I was not calling you out on anything but did note that the Minutes didn't say they laid out the five plans on the ground as you were recollecting off the top of your head.  Sorry if that came off as confrontational as it wasn't meant in that way.
Not sure what you mean by "per your email" but thank for your explanation nonetheless. I'm sorry for my sharp reaction to your post. I usually try to ignore all the offsite nonsense, but I guess the constant harassment by TEPaul and the ridiculous accusations by TEPaul and Wayne Morrison have put me more on edge that need be. Time to go back to ignoring them altogether, I guess.


Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #176 on: June 18, 2015, 02:53:55 PM »


David,


Thanks for the clarification.  It's pretty sad when the nature of these debates leads us to wonder about the importance of " marks.   :'(


Re the offline crap, it still escapes me why you don't take the high road and just block the e-mails or send them directly to the trash.




DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #177 on: June 18, 2015, 03:26:57 PM »
Re the offline crap, it still escapes me why you don't take the high road and just block the e-mails or send them directly to the trash.
Over the years, many of TEPaul's unwanted emails have been extremely creepy and threatening, as well as libelous. (You and others on his email chains usually only see the mild stuff.)  When anyone is being endlessly and repeatedly harassed and threatened through emails, phone calls, letters, in person, or any other form of unwanted communication, it is prudent to preserve records of the harassment.  In short, if he is insists on continuing to harass me despite by request that he quit contacting me, I'm going to keep a record of it.

That said, I will probably refrain from regularly asking him to stop in the future, as it only seems to encourage him.  Also, on my old email application I could automatically "sort" his emails into a segregated inbox where his messages were saved but I never saw them, and I think I'll try to figure out a way to do the same with my current email app.



« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 03:34:57 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #178 on: June 18, 2015, 05:44:06 PM »
Mike Cirba, regarding the rest of your post a few above:

1. You posit that the "three acres additional"  was part of  the "Francis Swap."  By Francis's description of the "swap," this cannot be.  The "Francis Swap" was a swap. Land-for-land. Not a purchase of additional acreage.

2. Regarding the topo map, you wrote, "CBM never to my knowledge 'expressed a need' for one."  Here is what CBM wrote in his June 29, 1910 letter to H.G. Lloyd regarding the lack of a topo map:
"The most difficult problem you have to contend with is to get in eighteen holes that will be first class in the acreage you propose buying. So far as we can judge, without a contour map before us, we are of the opinion that it can be done, provided you get a little more land near where you propose making your Club House."
If you are seriously contending that CBM is not expressing the need for a contour map in this passage, then I have to question whether or not you are attempting in good faith to understand this material.  In short, he indicated that his judgment was limited by the lack of a contour map. His opinion would have been more certain (and may have been more detailed) had he a contour map. Merion needed a contour map if he (or anyone) was going to figure out for certain if 18 first class holes would fit.

3.  You attempt to minimize the importance of the NGLA meeting by claiming "that meeting seemed very focused on the great holes abroad and what CBM had accomplished in reproducing their principles at NGLA . . ."  Again, your position directly contradicts the record itself. 
  First, the Alan Wilson statement left no doubt that, at NGLA, CBM was advising Wilson about the prospective lay out at Merion. "They also had our Committee as their guests at the National and their advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of the East Course were of the greatest help and value."
  Second, Hugh Wilson also had indicated that at NGLA they "learned what was right and what we should try to accomplish with our natural conditions."
  Third, it defies common sense and good faith analysis for you to seriously suggest that they weren't discussing the potential layout, given that CBM had already been over the land and had already been considering how to make use Merion's natural features ("we think [the land] has some very desirable features. The quarry and the brooks can be made much of.  What it lacks in abrupt mounds can be largely rectified . . . we are of the opinion that it can be done, provided you get a little more land near where you propose making your Club House."); and given the timing of the meeting during the heart of the planning phase; and given that Merion already possessed a contour map, and given that Wilson and/or Merion had already been communicating with CBM prior to the meeting, and given that on their return from the trip Merion "rearranged the course . . .. ", etc.

4.  You state, "Neither Wilson's account nor the recap you posted above from the Minutes indicate that they reviewed a topo of Merion while at NGLA."  Here you mistake the absence of evidence for evidence of absence, and this is a recurring theme in your analysis.  There is no reason for you to expect that Wilson's statement and/or the minutes would contain a minutely detailed account of every single thing that CBM did. It is therefore unreasonable for you assume there was no topo just because these two documents fail to mention it. 

In sum, Mike, your position does not seem to be consistent with the historical record, and it also seems to defy common sense.   

Remember that CBM had already been over the land, and we know that, at the very least, he had already been considering how to make use Merion's natural features.  And we also have been told that Merion had already considered a number of different courses on their land. Given all this and the rest of what we know, I have a few question I hope you will answer thoughtfully and reasonably:

1. Is it reasonable for you to continue to assert that Wilson traveled to NGLA and spent two days with CBM shortly before he was to begin building the course, yet they did not even bother discuss the the prospective layout?

2. Doesn't this position directly contradict Alan Wilson's statement, and common sense?

3. If CBM and HJW were not directly involved in the design process (at least with regard to the routing and hole concepts), then why would Merion trouble him to travel back to Philadelphia to again go over there land, consider the various plans, and approve a final layout plan?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 05:48:59 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #179 on: June 18, 2015, 07:13:50 PM »
I really must commend David for his calm and reasoned responses to everything that he has had to deal with on these threads. He research is so impressive. I also sense that Mike is trying hard to lower the tone of the debate, even if his lurker-supporters do not seem to have that ability. It has been a while since I've read Mike's "In My Opinion" piece (and I can't find that tab under this new gac.com format) but it strikes me that Mike only has to make a handful of relatively minor edits, ones that give CBM a little more credit, and Wilson a little less "divine inspiration" credit, and he'd have the story right. But perhaps after writing so many words,and fighting so hard, it is hard to admit even minor mistakes.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #180 on: June 18, 2015, 11:42:58 PM »
Bill,

The last thing in the world I'm looking for here is anything but a collegial tone and collaborative spirit.

Given that, if you can't find it here or in the back pages, let me know and I'll get you a copy of my IMO piece.

If there are factual corrections to be made please just point them out and I'll revise and send to Ran


Others are always welcome to do the same as I'd like my articles to be as historically accurate as possible.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 11:57:00 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #181 on: June 18, 2015, 11:58:41 PM »
Mike Cirba, Bryan & David,


Would it surprise you if the dominant cant within the putting surface on the Redan at NGLA was left to right, and not right to left ?


How would that impact your thinking regarding the Redan at Merion ?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #182 on: June 19, 2015, 12:18:35 AM »
Patrick.  I am not sure what you mean by "dominant cant" but multiple reports over the years have indicated that that the green cants from higher left to lower right.

(The green (which is very deep) is higher in back than it is in the front.  I think it is this characteristic which gives people pause.)

When I think of the Redan concept from a playability perspective, I think of it as a rare one shot hole which allows the golfer to get the ball to the same point on the green by two distinctly different routes and shots.  One can take the direct line over the bunker, or one can take an indirect line at the opening and then work the ball back around the trap using a draw and the slope of the land.  With Merion's redan, the ground doesn't slope away from the tee, but a lefthanded golfer can still hit a draw and hope to use the left to right slope to work the ball behind the bunker.   Not saying that this qualifies it as a "Redan" by any modern definition or understanding, but it does seem that the two-route aspect is still at least somewhat present because of the left to right slope.

EDIT: Some of the above makes no sense. I thought Patrick was asking about Merion's Redan.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 10:17:00 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #183 on: June 19, 2015, 07:47:47 AM »
Mike Cirba, Bryan & David,


Would it surprise you if the dominant cant within the putting surface on the Redan at NGLA was left to right, and not right to left ?


How would that impact your thinking regarding the Redan at Merion ?

Patrick,

Yes that would surprise me. 

But, looking at the pic of the hole on this website (courses by country, NGLA) it may be possible that the back portion of the green slopes right.  Certainly, the front slopes left, as the high right edge is visible, but the left/back disappears to just a mere sliver behind the bunker, suggesting (since it is slightly downhill) that the green doesn't pitch up (at least much) towards the golfer.

Just out of curiosity, what is the source of that knowledge? Personal experience, of course, but did anyone ever measure that like the Merion 3 green contour map?

Any way, that got me curious, and using the Merion 1995 map, at no place is that green more than 0.5 lower on the right than the left side.  The steepest slopes are near the back and the flattest area is actually adjacent to the bunker.  David might be right that many shots sort of funneled down to that flat area.

Of course, the green surface has probably been rebuilt or evolved since the old days.

My gut feel is just what Patrick said - either they defined it differently (perhaps because the barn wall reminded them of the boarded bunkers) or were perhaps liked the idea using the hole names to describe them, even if very loosely modeled after famous holes.  After all, both CBM at NGLA and Wilson wrote about "adapting them to our conditions" rather than making exact copies.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #184 on: June 19, 2015, 09:52:38 AM »
Mike Cirba, Bryan & David,


Would it surprise you if the dominant cant within the putting surface on the Redan at NGLA was left to right, and not right to left ?


How would that impact your thinking regarding the Redan at Merion ?

Patrick,

Yes that would surprise me. 

But, looking at the pic of the hole on this website (courses by country, NGLA) it may be possible that the back portion of the green slopes right.  Certainly, the front slopes left, as the high right edge is visible, but the left/back disappears to just a mere sliver behind the bunker, suggesting (since it is slightly downhill) that the green doesn't pitch up (at least much) towards the golfer.

Jeff,

The outer kick plate cants right to left and that influence continues into the right quadrent and along the back perimeter of the green.

But, as you face the green from the tee, starting where the kick plate meets the green if you draw a line from that point, roughly 4 O'clock to 10 O'clock, to the back of the green, the left side of that line slopes left to right and as you get to the back of the green, it too slopes left to right.  Anywhere from roughly 1/2 to 3/4 of that gree slopes left to right, that why you can't see your goofball from the tee as it gets further into the green, despite the fact that the tee sits slightly above the green.

If the green sloped high right to lower left you'd be able to see your ball at all times, and that's not the case at the 4th at NGLA.


Just out of curiosity, what is the source of that knowledge? Personal experience, of course, but did anyone ever measure that like the Merion 3 green contour map?

In addition to 40+ years of experience, I spent 20 minutes on that green late yesterday afternoon, just examining the contours.
I did the same at # 1, 3, 6 & 12.

Any way, that got me curious, and using the Merion 1995 map, at no place is that green more than 0.5 lower on the right than the left side.  The steepest slopes are near the back and the flattest area is actually adjacent to the bunker.  David might be right that many shots sort of funneled down to that flat area.

One of the things I noticed on many of the greens at NGLA is their funneling nature, how marginal shots are fed into bunkers, rough or fairway.


Of course, the green surface has probably been rebuilt or evolved since the old days.

My gut feel is just what Patrick said - either they defined it differently (perhaps because the barn wall reminded them of the boarded bunkers) or were perhaps liked the idea using the hole names to describe them, even if very loosely modeled after famous holes.  After all, both CBM at NGLA and Wilson wrote about "adapting them to our conditions" rather than making exact copies.


Agreed, I don't think their goals were to create exact replicas, in fact Macdonald often stated that he had improved upon the originals.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #185 on: June 19, 2015, 09:58:22 AM »
David,


I think there is more than one way to define the primary concept of a Redan,
In general.


1.   structurally
2.   functionally
3.   Structurally and functionally


You've described the functional aspect as the primary aspect

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #186 on: June 19, 2015, 10:12:55 AM »
I just realized I misread Patrick's question.  I thought he was asking about Merion.  I know . . . I'm a moron.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #187 on: June 19, 2015, 10:16:07 AM »
Pat,


I know where this will end up, but the slope of a green is not judged from the 4:00 position. It's always judged from the 6:00 position. Hell, from 12:00 the green is uphill...


If I were to hit a straight shot from the tee to the front apron center...would my ball roll to the left or right?


I assume based on your comments that the ball would roll to the left for a while and once it got into the back half or third of the green it would straighten or possibly move a little right. Is this the case?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #188 on: June 19, 2015, 10:20:18 AM »
There is simply no denying the number of people referring to the current 3rd at Merion as a Redan...what's always interested me is how far off the concept they seemed to have gotten.


Do we know if the beginning of the current green pad was initially maintained as fairway height? This would explain the motive behind William Flynn's decision to grow the grass longer. It would also play more into the Redan concept than what is on the ground today.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #189 on: June 19, 2015, 06:03:23 PM »
Jim,  The Hagley Digital Library has a 1925 oblique aerial which unfortunately cuts off right at the 3rd green, But one can make out the about half the green-side bunker in the image clip below. It looks to me like the entire area between the tee and green (and all the way over to the 6th fairway) was cut as fairway.



Also notice there is a lot going on with various tee boxes in this early image. Looking at the course map published in 1916, my guess is that the original tee boxes were the smaller boxes closest to the 5th green (remember 5th was originally the 6th and the 3rd was the 7th.)  If memory serves these two small boxes are still there. Playing off if these boxes changes the angle slightly and might allow a bit more potential to run the ball up along the bias of the plateau.

Here is the cutout of the hole on the map published in 1916, along with another rendering  (by Flynn I think) from 1916.
                 

The 2nd rendering is definitely not drawn to scale but it is interesting that in both these drawings the GREEN starts before the left side bunker and almost raps around it a bit to the left.  In later renderings the green doesn't seem to extend that far forward and left.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 05:19:14 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #190 on: June 19, 2015, 09:47:40 PM »
David,

I've been on my phone and really can't make sense of what I'm looking at there. I'll get into a bigger screen this weekend and report back. Thanks!

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #191 on: June 19, 2015, 10:53:55 PM »
David,

I'm not sure where you see fairway drawn short and left of the left side bunker on those drawings?  Could you elaborate?  Thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #192 on: June 19, 2015, 11:24:24 PM »
Pat,


I know where this will end up, but the slope of a green is not judged from the 4:00 position. It's always judged from the 6:00 position. Hell, from 12:00 the green is uphill...

Jim,


You obviously don't understand the term "point of reference"


If I were to hit a straight shot from the tee to the front apron center...would my ball roll to the left or right?

I couldn't tell you because I don't know how hard you hit your approach shot, but let's stop the nonsense, more than half the green slopes from left to right.
But I only examined it again today in addition to the 20 minutes I spent on it yesterday.  Just to make you happy, I'll examine it again tomorrow.     


I assume based on your comments that the ball would roll to the left for a while and once it got into the back half or third of the green it would straighten or possibly move a little right. Is this the case?


NO, the left to right cant starts at the front left edge of the green and continues along that entire edge to the back of the green.


Hope that helps.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 11:29:19 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #193 on: June 19, 2015, 11:38:19 PM »
My mistake Mike.  It should read "interesting that in both these drawings the GREEN starts before the left side bunker and almost raps around it a bit."  I'll change it.


EDIT:  Jeez I can't seem to get it right.  Changed "fairway" to GREEN here and above.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 05:20:51 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #194 on: June 19, 2015, 11:49:13 PM »
David,

I've been on my phone and really can't make sense of what I'm looking at there. I'll get into a bigger screen this weekend and report back. Thanks!
It is a bit disorienting because the 3rd green is missing. The old second green is in the right of the photo. The 5th green is in the lower middle.  The right green-side bunker on the "Redan" is the large bunker about 2/3 up the left edge of the photo.

[The photo also provides a great look at the original diagonal carry on the 6th hole, which was Merion's attempt at the Road Hole.)  The bunker built into the corner of the adjacent property was functional equivalent of the "stationmaster's garden" (now the Hotel) on the original Road Hole.]
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #195 on: June 26, 2015, 03:17:05 AM »



Here's a short article from the June 25, 1939 Philadelphia Inquirer that mentions the Redan at Merion.  Apparently Richard Francis, the renaissance man - engineer, surveyor, construction company owner, writer of THE book on the rules and decisions of golf, and fictional novelist and short story writer, was also a pretty good golfer.

The article mentions the Redan having a fairway and a slanting green although it doesn't mention in which direction the green slants.

And, a hole in one on the Redan with a 4 wood by one of the Griscoms.

I've heard of being born with a silver spoon in your mouth, but a gold plated 4 wood in your golf bag!?  ;D











DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #196 on: June 26, 2015, 02:36:08 PM »
Thanks for posting that. Lloyd Griscom was Rodman (R.E.) and Frances's brother.  R.E. and Frances had started the mixed family tournament sometime in the mid 1920's, I think.  Interesting they were playing the hole from only 170 yards.  One way to tell the amateurs from the professionals back then was that it was the amateurs who carried gold plated clubs, not the professionals.

As for Richard Francis, here is what he had to say about his own golfing abilities in in 1917, in his entry to his Harvard Class Update:
Life for me is nothing more or less than a constant struggle to keep my income to such a point that I have a little time and a little money left over to play golf. Having struggled with golf for some twenty years, I have reached the point where I am almost a good golfer. Over and over again I have come very close to being a great golfer, but somehow or other somebody turns up at the psychological moment with the idea in his head of demonstrating that I am entirely mistaken as to my skill. Most unfortunately the demonstration is accurate, forceful and to the point.

For those who still think that he might have been a bit of a stiff in real life, I'll post the rest of the description in the other thread.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #197 on: June 26, 2015, 05:25:27 PM »
David,

As regards the timing of the Francis land deal, where is it written that an "exchange" of land, or a "swap", has to be between two equal parcels?   Particularly when compensation is offered for the difference?   Particularly when both parties have officers who are some of the same persons, such as H.G. Lloyd?   

To wit, from the April 1911 Board of Governors meeting, more of the Merion Cricket Club meeting minutes, copied from "The Nature Faker".; (italics and bold for emphasis are mine)

Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing a proposed layout of the new
Golf Ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of land already purchased
for other land adjoining and the purchase of about three acres additional to cost about
$7500.00
, and asked the approval of this Board, it was on motion
Resolved, that this Board approve of the purchase and exchange, and agree to pay as
part of the rental the interest on the additional purchase.


In December of 1910, Merion "secured" 117 acres from the Real Estate Developer.

In February of 1911, Hugh Wilson wrote Piper & Oakley that Merion had obtained 117 acres.

Richard Francis told us that his brainstorm provided Merion enough room to fit the last five holes.   He also told us that they exchanged land that didn't fit "with any golf layout" of the multiple layout plans stiill under consideration.  This was sometime after he had been "added" to Wilson's Committee early in 1911 for his surveying and mapping skills.

Per that brainstorm and subsequent Board approval, Merion purchased 120 acres in July of 1911, not the originally agreed 117.

There is no theory here, simply a factual timeline.

This is really very simple and straightforward once it's recognized that this wasn't an acre for acre exchange.

I'll get back to your other questions as I'm able, thanks.


« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 06:18:19 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #198 on: June 26, 2015, 06:34:57 PM »
Mike,  I've answered it all many times before, and I will again . . . as I'm able.  I imagine that will be sometime after you get a chance to answer my pending questions above, and after we get a chance to discuss your answers.  Thanks. 

To refresh your recollection . . .

Remember that CBM had already been over the land, and we know that (at the very least) he had already been considering how to make use Merion's natural features. And we also have been told that Merion had already considered a number of different courses on their land. And we know that the NGLA trip took place in the spring of 1911, when they were actively planning the course. And we know that they had a contour map by this time. Given all this and the rest of what we know, I have a few question I hope you will answer thoughtfully and reasonably:

1. Is it reasonable for you to continue to assert that Wilson traveled to NGLA and spent two days with CBM shortly before he was to begin building the course, yet they did not even bother discuss the the prospective layout?

2. Doesn't this position directly contradict Alan Wilson's statement, and common sense?

3. If CBM and HJW were not directly involved in the design process (at least with regard to the routing and hole concepts), then why would Merion trouble him to travel back to Philadelphia to again go over there land, consider the various plans, and approve a final layout plan?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 06:38:23 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #199 on: June 29, 2015, 02:04:39 PM »
 
Mike,   To refresh your recollection . . .
 
 Remember that CBM had already been over the land, and we know that (at the very least) he had already been considering how to make use Merion's natural features. And we also have been told that Merion had already considered a number of different courses on their land. And we know that the NGLA trip took place in the spring of 1911, when they were actively planning the course. And we know that they had a contour map by this time. Given all this and the rest of what we know, I have a few question I hope you will answer thoughtfully and reasonably:
 
 1. Is it reasonable for you to continue to assert that Wilson traveled to NGLA and spent two days with CBM shortly before he was to begin building the course, yet they did not even bother discuss the prospective layout?
 
 2. Doesn't this position directly contradict Alan Wilson's statement, and common sense?
 
 3. If CBM and HJW were not directly involved in the design process (at least with regard to the routing and hole concepts), then why would Merion trouble him to travel back to Philadelphia to again go over there land, consider the various plans, and approve a final layout plan?
 

David,
 
Thanks for your questions and I’ll try to respond thoughtfully and reasonably.   
 
I think for starters we need a standard here separating fact and conjecture, as neither of us want to be accused of simply “making sh*t up”, as you sometimes contend.   That is why I tried in my previous post to stick to the facts we know and how those affect the timeline of when events occurred and what conclusions we could reasonably draw from those events.
 
For instance, if we know that Merion had only secured 117 acres as of February 1st, 1911 and they eventually bought 120 acres that decision to purchase an additional three acres had to have happened after February 1st, 1911.   
 
If we know that Richard Francis told us that his brainstorm allowed them to squeeze in the final five holes, by exchanging some land that didn’t fit in with “any golf lay-out” they were still considering for land they could use, then only one of two possibilities is true;
 
1)      That Richard Francis had his brainstorm that allowed them to fit all the holes on the course prior to February 1st, 1911, yet in the next few months Merion decided they still needed an additional three acres for the golf course because, I don’t know, but we’d have to “make sh*t up” to try to rationalize or justify this belief as there is really no factual evidence to indicate otherwise, right?
 
2)      That the Richard Francis brainstorm exchange took place after February 1st, 1911 but required an additional three acres overall to fit the golf holes, requiring them to authorize another capital outlay to cover the purchase.   Indeed, the April 1911 Minutes would seem to substantiate this, as follow;
 
Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing a proposed layout of the new Golf Ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of land already purchased for other land adjoining and the purchase of about three acres additional to cost about $7500.00, and asked the approval of this Board, it was on motion Resolved, that this Board approve of the purchase and exchange, and agree to pay as part of the rental the interest on the additional purchase.
 
Similarly, it’s a fact that Richard Francis’s 1950 account begins by telling us that he was “added” to Hugh Wilson’s Committee presumably for his engineering and surveying skills.   That committee formed on January 11, 1911 according to Jeff Silverman’s Merion history book, and Hugh Wilson himself told us that his Committee was formed in early 1911, as well.   Francis also tells us that the brainstorm he had related to the golf plan (other golf layouts were under consideration at the time) that was eventually approved and built.   Similarly, the Merion Cricket Club Minutes indicate that various plans were considered prior to the Committee’s March 1911 visit to NGLA, and that upon returning, the Committee “rearranged the course and laid out five different plans” which were later reviewed by CBM as part of the decision-making process.
 
Thus, knowing those facts, only one of two things can be true;
 
1)      That Richard Francis’s brainstorm happened after being “added” to Hugh Wilson’s Committee, which is consistent with all other known facts.
 
2)      That somehow Richard Francis had his brainstorm prior to being added to Hugh Wilson’s Committee in January 1911, after which the Committee considered various other plans over several months before coming back full circle to the original Francis plan.   There is no factual evidence to indicate this, so once again we’d have to make sh*t up, correct?
 
We also know it’s a fact that the November 1910 Land Plan submitted to the Merion membership is a scale drawing by civil engineers Pugh & Hubbard indicating the 117 acres secured for the golf course, and also showing the adjacent real estate development separated by an “Approximate” location of a road dividing the two, today’s Golf House Road.   We also know as fact that Richard Francis told us that “the land now covered by fine homes along Golf House Road was exchanged for land about 130 yds. wide by 190 yds. long – the present location of the 15th green and 16th tee.”   However, it’s also a fact that the northernmost “triangle” on the Pugh and Hubbard 1910 drawing does not measure those dimensions at all, but instead measures approximately 95 yds. wide by 260 yds. long.   
 
Thus, knowing those facts, only one of two things can be true;
 
1)      Richard Francis had his brainstorm prior to the creation of the Pugh and Hubbard map in November 1910 and subsequently, Pugh and Hubbard made a gross error in indicating the northwestern border of the golf course on that map.   However, there’s really no evidence to substantiate that claim, so we’d once again have to make sh*t up, right?
 
2)      Richard Francis had his brainstorm sometime after the creation of that map, during which time that northwestern boundary was re-aligned to the 130 yards wide by 190 yards long dimension recalled by Francis, likely as a result of swapping land not used for any golf layout along that same border.   
 
Admittedly, I think all of us fell into the trap of imagining that the land exchange Richard Francis mentioned in 1950 was a straight acre-for-acre exchange, when it is clear from the April 1911 Merion Cricket Club minutes that it was not.   Indeed, an additional three acres was needed for the golf course along that western border north of Ardmore Avenue, which is the only place on the property where such flexibility was even possible.   And, as mentioned, Merion authorized the payment of $7500 for those additional three acres at the April 1911 Board of Governors meeting.
 
So, I think it would be a very productive step for our discussion that we come to agreement that all of the factual evidence indicates that the Richard Francis brainstorm and subsequent land exchange took place after Wilson’s Committee was formed in early 1911, and likely after that Committee’s trip to NGLA in March of 1911.   Such an agreement based on the known facts would also greatly benefit future discussions on this and other topics. 
 
Thanks, and I’ll answer your other questions shortly.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 02:23:47 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/