Ron Whitten on Shinnecock

[Patrick_Mucci]

Macdonald's description of the Redan hole from Golf Illustrated 1914 was:

Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from
right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front
side, approach it diagonally, and you have
the Redan.

He did go on later to add a bit about a back bunker and also thoughts on how to play the hole in different winds.

Seems to me that there are three main principles he gleaned from the original:

1.  narrow tableland tilted from right to left

Bryan,  In general, yes, but, NGLA's Redan has a counter tilt, from left to right just over the fronting bunker.

2.  a deep bunker on the front side

3.  the tee shot should approach the green diagonally


He made no mention of a principle of it being uphill or blind.

The blindness is there in that the leading edge of the green's footpad blocks the view of the putting surface.

He made no mention of the ridge crossing the fairway half way to the green or the Redan bunker in its face.

I guess these features weren't principles he wanted to take from the hole.

At NGLA he adhered to his three principles.  He even put in the ridge and the bunker in its face,
but he did not make it high enough to make the green blind from the tee.

That's not completely true.
Large portions of the green are blind from the tee.

What you see in Jon's photo is the right side of the green, the interior kick plate.
What you can't see is the enormous portion of the green to the left.

Here are Jon's picture of the Redan at NGLA and my picture from NB.  
The most noticeable difference from the tee is the difference in height of the ridge.  
So, NGLA is not a strict copy but it does meet Macdonald's three principles and goes beyond that with the ridge and Redan bunker.

Bryan, more likely, it's the uphill versus almost level relationship between tee and green at the two holes.

Does anyone know what the prevailing wind/s is/are at NB ?








Merion, on the other hand appears to have half of principle 1 (lacking NB's tilt) and principle 2 and 3.  There is no ridge or Redan Bunker and consequently it's not blind.  So, Merion appears to be less of a copy and misses one major part of the principles in the tilt.  But, various people called it a "Redan" at the time, so in their opinion it was a Redan.  But, for me the lack of tilt like NB is a critical miss as far as considering it playing like a Redan.  But, if the people of the time called it a Redan, so be it.

Does anyone have a photo of Morris County's Redan and Fisher's Island's par 4 Redan green





Now, back to your regular attack/counterttack programming.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

Understand and agree.

A few years ago I made the mistake of saying that Doak's Leven hole at Old Macdonald didn't match up very well with the original.  It didn't, but everyone else wanted to call it a Leven hole because Tom did, so a lot of people think that's what a Leven hole was.

Most named holes are not copies of the original and some don't even match many of the principles, even if we ever agreed on what the principles are.

Bryan,

You see that "loose" interpretation in many of Raynor's and Banks's work.

I think you have to differentiate between a "replica" and "in principle"

There are "templates" and there are "template lights"

I'd be reluctant to declassify # 4 at NGLA as a "Redan"

Piping Rock's 3rd hole more closely resembles the Redan at NB, but, I don't think that dilutes # 4 at NGLA's claim.



 

[Sven Nilsen]

Feb. 1916 Golf Illustrated -



Sept. 1916 Golf Illustrated -

[MCirba]

Sven,

I've seen those photos.  It looks to me like today's 3rd green which we know was called a redan from the git-go. 

Is there something we should be seeing beyond the obvious?

[DMoriarty]

CBM also wrote: "The principle can be used with an infinite number of variations on any course."  So he gave himself quite a lot of leeway, thus holes like Sleepy Hollow's Redan and Merion's Redan.   (Same goes for the Doak's Leven, I think. The hole at Old Mac captures something about the principles even if all the elements that you want to see aren't there.)

CBM is (and was) sort of between a rock and a hard spot.  Some vehemently criticize him for rote copying rather than showing creativity and originality in his designs.  Others criticize him for not being rote enough in his copying.  Perhaps he should have followed Henry Leach's advice and copied when it suited him while keeping quiet about it.
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Sean,  It has been asked a number of times, but I don't think I've yet seen your answer.  Do you consider any hole a "true" Redan other than The Redan?  
____________________________________________

In the first photo from post by Sven from GI, February 16th one can see that the green tilted from the golfer's left to right for much of the green.

[Jon Cavalier]

Pat:

Here you go:

Fisher's Island No. 12 - par 4 "reverse redan":














Morris County's "reverse redan" par 3:

[MCirba]

Honestly, if we're to define it this loosely, is there any par three short of one with a dead flat island green that couldn't be termed a redan?  

I really think we need some historical perspective here and I think Tom Doak's "fortress" description bears merit.

[Sean_A]

David

I haven't come across a Redan version which is as good as the original and it usually gets back to the blindness (mainly of the landing zone for the kick up) of the orginal which makes it stand out from the crowd.  Folks keep talking about not seeing the putting surface, but the landing zone is visible in the examples I see...making the guess work for the line(s) MUCH easier to determine.  I understand that when the ODGs were doing their thing that blindness was not a favoured feature and of course these days its probably even less favoured by archies...plus many archies don't really want to do Redans because they have been done to death.   So it may take some searching to find an undiluted version of The Redan.  I am sure there must be some out there.  Afterall, I came across an excellent Road Hole once...if anything probably more difficult thn the original!  

Mike...I really do think the ODGs used the term Redan very loosely...basically just an angled green if they were even calling downhill versions Redans. 

Ciao

[MCirba]

Merion's third hole has so few of N.B.'s characteristics; I wonder if Macdonald encouraged Wilson to move dirt to shape the hole so it played more like North Berwick's? I also wonder what Wilson thought when he finally saw the original. Was the front left approach ever maintained to accept a running shot that would reach the green?

Bill,

Rodman Griscom played the original redan a zillion times more than the one time CBM played at North Berwick through 1906 during the prior years Griscom and his sister spent studying under Ben Sayers during summer vacations at the turn of the 20th century.

The idea that the Merion Committee would need external advice about building that redan hole are ludicrous and the result of partial study and premature conclusions.

[DMoriarty]

Honestly, if we're to define it this loosely, is there any par three short of one with a dead flat island green that couldn't be termed a redan?  

"Honestly" this is nonsense. In the case of Merion, CBM, Findlay, Travis, AWT, Lesley, and Golf Illustrated, and others described the hole as a Redan and they did not describe every par three other than "a dead flat island green" as Redans.  Mostly it was just those par threes of a certain length, built on an angled plateau, with a large fronting bunker guarding much of the green and an opening on one side and contours so that that one could access the area behind the bunker without directly attacking the bunker.  This hardly includes every par three except for flat island holes.

And "honestly" most of the holes the old dead guys described as Redans in America were designed either by CBM or one of his proteges.

[Bill Brightly]

Merion's third hole has so few of N.B.'s characteristics; I wonder if Macdonald encouraged Wilson to move dirt to shape the hole so it played more like North Berwick's? I also wonder what Wilson thought when he finally saw the original. Was the front left approach ever maintained to accept a running shot that would reach the green?

Bill,

Rodman Grissom played the original redan a zillion times more than the one time CBM played at North Berwick through 1906 during the times he and his sister spent studying under Ben Sayers during summer vacations at the turn of the 20th century.

The idea that the Merion Committee would need external advice about building that redan hole are ludicrous and the result of partial study and premature conclusions.

Mike,

It seems apparent that Macdonald's advice was limited to the routing and not the fine details of how the hole should be finished.  I was just speculating as to why the hole at Merion had so few of the characteristics of North Berwick's. I've only seen what is on the ground now at Merion, and was asking if a runup was ever possible.

[DMoriarty]

Rodman Griscom played the original redan a zillion times more than the one time CBM played at North Berwick.

A zillion times more than CBM?  Care to document this outrageous claim, Mike?  You think that because his sister spent time there that he played it zillion times?  

While you are at it, care to document your claim that CBM only played it once?  

Or maybe you should just quit embarrassing yourself by making stupid shit up?

The idea that the Merion Committee would need external advice about building that redan hole are ludicrous and the result of partial study and premature conclusions.

What a Joke.  Hugh Wilson himself told us he needed help, and that he went to CBM for that help, and that CBM gave it to him, and that everything he saw later overseas confirmed what CBM had taught him.  Stop this idiocy Mike.
______________________________________________________________________

Bill, regarding whether or not a run-up was possible, I recall reading a quote from William Flynn from around 1916 about his plan to grow the grass short of the green so as to stop golfers from running the ball up onto the green.   (Flynn was known as very good golfer himself and apparently not a big believer in such such being rewarded the same as aerial shots.)  I'll try to see if I can't track down the article again.

[John Kavanaugh]

Redan is the first word every beardpuller learns.  It's best just to let it go and let them bask in the glow.

[MCirba]

If anyone can show how most of this green slopes left to right please call Galileo and Euclid because the laws of physics and geometry are suddenly null and void.  

[DMoriarty]

Here is the quote from the August 6, Brooklyn Daily Eagle, the month before the Amateur, in a discussion about what Flynn was doing to the course to toughen the course:
Redan Seventh an Illustration.
The seventh hole, for instance, is a one-shot Redan type of hole.  Here the play is over the ditch running in from the left to connect with a big trap under the green at the right. These two hazards meet in a ravine. From there up to the green is a sharp slope.  At present the grass is of the short order, so that if a ball just clears the traps, it may run up to the green.  It is the intention of Greenkeeper Flynn to let this grass become real rough, so that a ball after clearing the traps, if not properly hit, will be checked in its effort to sneak up to the green.

So it sounds like before Flynn's "real rough," the golfer could run the ball up onto the green despite the slope, but that Flynn wasn't a big fan of the aerial game at this point.

I guess Mike knows better than did Flynn as to how the course played before 1916.

[MCirba]

David,

That's just desperation, sad to say.

Exactly what bunker will be carried to allow a ball to release onto the green?

The green and surrounds are pictured in my previous post.  Please feel free to show us what William Flynn was protecting the hole from  where the going game could be utilized?  Have at it.

[DMoriarty]

It said "traps" not bunker.  I assume they were talking about the ditch running in from the left to underneath the Redan Bunker.  

As for the rest, who do you think was lying in that newspaper article, Mike?  The author, or William Flynn?  

[MCirba]

Ok.  That's that.

Let's get back to Shinnecock.

[Bill Brightly]

Of course, the Redan at North Berwick was named from a fortress in the Crimean War, and most of the principals 100 years ago understood that the word meant "fortress", so it's possible that they used the name for par-3 holes that didn't play exactly the same as the 15th at North Berwick.

While I have no problem with people emphasizing the "fortress" aspect of the definition of a redan, I do think it is important to remember that the hole was not designed with a fort in mind. Rather, the hole received it's name from a retired soldier who saw the sleepers on the front left greenside bunker and was reminded of his time fighting in the Crimean War. It does not take much imagination to envision why soldier came up with the name:



You can see how the bunker was re-constructed with fill after the sleepers were removed:



I'd like to hear more from Sean about the specific bunker names at North Berwick. I think Redan Bunker is a more apt name for the front-left greenside bunker; that is the one that truly provided the fort-like look, but it would be cool to learn what the club named each bunker.

In any event, the golf hole was built before it was named. That means the original architect was NOT trying to mimic the Redan at Sevastopol. So criticizing a current golf hole because it lacks a "fortress" look is misguided. Judge the hole by how well it compares to what is on the ground at North Berwick.

It seems clear that Sean A, the Russian judge, requires this view of the flag

[MCirba]

More on the Merion and Griscom family ties to North Berwick.

Anyone still think they needed Macdonald and his one visit there in 1906 to tell them what a Redan was or looked or played like?

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/top-stories/us-open-venue-owes-much-of-its-heritage-to-north-berwick-1-2968247

More about the visit of Rodman Griscom and his sister in 1906 and 1911.

http://www.northberwick.org.uk/sayers.html


Does anyone think the "old retaining wall" in the barn might have suggested this hole to them?

[Bill Brightly]

Mike,

If it is true that Macdonald only saw North Berwick once, that only raises my admiration for his skill. What he built at National so thoroughly captured all the playing characteristics of the hole (except for the blind approach) at North Berwick. This should be evidenced by the photos Jon and I have posted. And it makes me question how the committee, with zillions of rounds of playing experience, could reproduce so few at Merion.

From the very little I know about routing, I think architects first find green sites. So if there was a small plateau (the barnyard?) at the top of the slope, that might very well have looked like a green site to a skilled architect. I'm pretty sure anyone could then envision a golf hole without the barn. And if the natural green site angled left to right with a steep slope underneath, you have the beginnings of a reverse Redan.

[Sean_A]

Bill

A few years ago I was trying to find if/when the two fore bunkers were added to the hole.  I took a good look at the 1877 Plan and noticed the names of the bunkers.  Alas, I still haven't found out why or when the bunker scheme short of the green was altered.  Not long ago somebody else also noted the names in a thread.



Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

Sean, that is very interesting. The short cross bunker is drawn as one bunker, not the two spectacle bunkers that exist now. I wonder if the original cross bunker was also constructed with sleepers? If both bunkers featured wooden faces that would certainly have enhanced the "fortress" look!

[DMoriarty]

Bill,
Mike has no idea how many times CBM might have seen the Redan (and I don't either.)  He just pretends the shit he makes up is fact because he thinks it suits his argument.  He seems to have forgotten that H.J. Whigham (of the famous golfing family from Prestwick) was also right there with CBM when they were advising Merion how best to use their land.  He also has apparently forgotten that CBM did more than just play The Redan, he studied it and had plans and/or measures and specifications drawn up so he could reprodice it, that he had already built his masterpiece Redan at NGLA, and that Wilson spent two days at NGLA with CBM studying the holes Wilson planned on reproducing at Merion.

That Mike (and his mentor) would even suggest that somehow R.E. Griscom was CBM/HJW's superior when it came to recognizing, understanding, and applying the Redan principle goes to show just how attenuated (and idiotic) their position has become.
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Bill and Sean,

Historically, I think the the short cross bunker was called the Redan bunker, not the left greenside bunker.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bill,

From a thread last year, there is a "plan" showing all the bunkers and their names that hangs in the starters hut at NB.  Here is detail from that "plan" for the area of the Redan hole.  This "plan" shows a routing that mirrors the 1895 stick plan, so it comes after the one Sean posted above.

From the plan, I'd venture a guess that the Duffers and Redan bunkers did not have sleepers