Ron Whitten on Shinnecock

[Sean_A]

I figured you would have something to say....and it would be more meaningful if you used my entire post.

The term was an easy way for some to describe holes (still is) that may or may not have been Redans or inspired by the Redan. 

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jon

Calling Merion's 3rd a Redan is purely a case of believing what was written 100 years ago against what our eyes tell us today.  Then people will trot out the heavy guns and say they trust McD more than some schmuck today...makes no difference...Merion's 3rd is not a Redan.  The term was an easy way for some to describe holes (still is) that may or may not have been Redans or inspired by the Redan.  

Sean,

What would you call the 8th at The Creek ?

[Sean_A]

I have never seen The Creek's 8th...have a photo?

Ciao

[DMoriarty]

Sean,  And I figured you'd have something to say when I posted originally.

Your whole post is still there for everyone to read.  The sentence you highlighted - "The term was an easy way for some to describe holes (still is) that may or may not have been Redans or inspired by the Redan" - didn't seem to me to apply to Merion's 3rd.  There is no "may or may not" about it with that particular hole.  According to the historical record the hole was inspired by North Berwick's Redan and was considered a Redan.   That it doesn't fit with your contemporary definition is really a different discussion altogether, and one I'd just as soon not enter.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have never seen The Creek's 8th...have a photo?

Here is the link. And as you can imagine, there was much discussion.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4070

WOW, thanks for the link!  There are some great pictures on there. 

[Sean_A]

David...but then you entered the discussion...in a most obvious manner 

Pat...the link doesn't work.

Ciao

[DMoriarty]

David...but then you entered the discussion...in a most obvious manner 

Ciao

Sean,  Did I?  And here I thought I merely commented on how Merion's third hole was viewed historically, and tried to distinguish that inquiry from yours.

[DMoriarty]

Here is a photo of the "redan" at The Creek club, from http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/photos/newyork/creekclub/

[Sean_A]

Now that we have established that you are well and truly in the discussion (I know, you a sick man)...forget what you read in a magazine, book or newspaper.  Do you think Merion's 3rd is a Redan (in the true sense of The Redan) or a facsimile inspired by The Redan?

Pat...Creek's 8th looks like a typical US idea of a Redan inspired by the original or perhaps even a copy, but imo not a true Redan if the image depicts what the hole truly is. This version looks to be not only visible, but downhill.  Blindness and uphill (at least to the start of the green) are critical components of a Redan as oppossed to a hole inspired by The Redan...a critical and important difference if visual and playing characteristics are at all important in determining what is and isn't a Redan.   

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

Sean A, the Russian judge!

Seriously, if all Redans required Sean's stamp of approval, there would be very few Redans. I understand and appreciate his ideals. Blindness is a HUGE factor at the original hole at North Berwick, and Sean seems to make that a prerequisite before a hole can be called a Redan. CB Macdonald felt differntly, and chose to build some of his Redans playing downhill. Having played NB's and many MacRaynor versions, the one key element Macdonald wanted was significant movement once the ball reached the putting surface. He obviously also was extremly faithful to the greenside bunkering, including adding the short carry bunkers.

But David is 100% right, all of these holes are inspired by N.B.'s and Macdonald certainly led the way in bringing the hole into such prominence. As far as I know, Macdonald, Raynor and Banks built a version on every course they designed. Sean woud give failing grades to some, perhaps many. But they are still Redan holes. And when you bring in a man like CB Macdonald to help route a course like Merion did, no one should be surprised to see a Redan on the plans. How Wilson actually built the hole, and how it plays today are irrelevant to the inspiration of the design.

[DMoriarty]

Now that we have established that you are well and truly in the discussion (I know, you a sick man)...forget what you read in a magazine, book or newspaper.  Do you think Merion's 3rd is a Redan (in the true sense of The Redan) or a facsimile inspired by The Redan?

Sean,  I don't really cling to hard and fast definitions like you do with regard to such things, and I don't know what it takes for a hole to be a Redan "in the true sense of The Redan."   I think when you say "true sense" you are talking about your understanding.  

I will say that, keeping in mind what I have read about the concept of the hole as applied in the United States, and keeping in mind the harder conditions of the prior era, and keeping in mind that I am left-handed, I think can understand why they considered the hole a reversed redan. O think that a left-handed golfer can hit a low draw at the opening and have the ball work its way to the right and behind the bunker.  (I've hit such a shot on the hole, with old equipment, and although I am horrible it worked for me.)

But of course it is nowhere near an exact copy, and it is missing certain elements that you and others view as essential.  That is the end of the discussion for you, but not for me, and not for CBM, as none of his examples (not even NGLA, which is slightly downhill) would qualify by your standards.

"The principle of the Redan can be used wherever a long narrow tableland can be found or made. Curiously enough the Redan existed at the National long before the links was thought of. It is a perfectly natural hole. The essential part, the tilted tableland was almost exactly like the North Berwick original. All that had to be done was to dig the banker in the face, and place the tee properly. . .
   There are several Redans to be found nowadays on American courses. There is a simplified Redan at Piping Rock, a reversed Redan at Merion Cricket Club (the green being approached from the left hand end of the tableland) and another reversed Redan at Sleepy Hollow where the tee instead of being about level with the green is much higher. A beautiful short hole with the Redan principle will be found on the new Philadelphia course at Pine Valley. Here also the tee is higher than the hole, so that the player overlooks the tableland. The principle can be used with an infinite number of variations on any course."

[DMoriarty]

Here is a photo of Merion's 3rd from the 1934 Open Program, at http://www.trenhamgolfhistory.org/PTHGUSOpen20131934.html



Maybe one has to be left-handed to see it, but I can see why the experts of the earlier era considered this hole to be a reversed Redan.

[Sean_A]

Bill

"Inspired" is the right way to look at it.  Beyond that and we are really talking about ease of conversation...a way to talk about a hole which many will generally understand.  In the case of many so called Redans in the US, the idea of a green tilting with perhaps the opportunity to use the slope to safely play close to the hole.    

I would say that how a plays today is really the most relevant aspect of a hole.  The design intent may be a quaint idea for a few wing nuts, but some would say those folks are irrelevant    But even for a wing nut, how in the heck does Merion's 3rd function as a Redan?  I understand that back in the day the hole was more Redanish with a left to right slope running up to and through the green, but the hole has changed...no?  I don't recall any such opportunity to run a ball up to the green as it rests atop a steep plateau with no area for a run up or a usable let to right slope. So why refer to it in the same way as the ODGs when the hole is different?

David

You seem to insist that a hole inspired by The Redan makes it a Redan.  I don't buy that premise so there is no point in carrying on.    

Ciao

[MCirba]

The 3rd at Merion is a tough as nails hole, arguably a great hole, but it really is a crappy redan, although as David and others point out, it was intended to be one.

I've played a bunch of redan holes including the original, and many reverse redan holes as well, including the very good one at Los Angeles CC with David Moriarty some years back.  All of the best ones allow you to use the ground short and adjacent to the putting surface as part of the inherent challenge/opportunity.  The one at Merion does not.  

[DMoriarty]

David

You seem to insist that a hole inspired by The Redan makes it a Redan.  I don't buy that premise so there is no point in carrying on.    

Ciao

I don't insist on any such thing, nor do I feel the need to come up with a hard and fast definition. But you can define "Redan" any way you like. All I am saying is that the historical record indicates that the hole was modeled after the Redan, and the was considered a reversed Redan by many of the leading commentators of the era.
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Mike Cirba,  I don't know if that was true then.  There is an early report of Flynn wanting to grow rough short of the green because he wanted to stop golfers who were running their ball up the hill and onto the green.

[Bill Brightly]

Sean,

Merion #3 does not play like a Redan. You are right, there is no run up possibilty and I have no problem disqualifying it as a Redan.

But for those of us who love history, and truly enjoy comparing what is on the ground today with the architect's original intent, it is important to keep the term Redan.  Macdonald called his holes Redans before you were or your father were born. CBM outranks you! He taught Raynor who taught Banks. They built their versions of Redan holes, even though they never traveled to Scotland. You might feel they are poor tributes holes, but they were absolutely inspired by North Berwick's, that cannot be in question.

Remember the game sometime played in school where a message is whispered in one person's ear who whispers it to the next person, and by the end of the line the message is completely changed? Perhaps that is what happened on the ground in the US. Macdonald saw and played N.B.'s Redan and selected what he thought were the most important characteristics. He explained that to Raynor, who "heard what he heard." Macdonald most certainly explained the hole to Wilson, who "heard what he heard" and he built Merion #3. So go ahead and take certain holes of the Sean A Approved Redan list, but the holes all pay homage to North Berwick and the retired military officer who first applied the name Redan to a golf hole.

[MCirba]

I agree Bill.

It's interesting to read what Richard Francis wrote about the hole years later.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

Agree on a "true" Redan, but what qualities qualify a par 3 as a "true" Redan ?

Does it have to be an uphill approach ?

[Sean_A]

David

You seem to insist that a hole inspired by The Redan makes it a Redan.  I don't buy that premise so there is no point in carrying on.    

Ciao

I don't insist on any such thing, nor do I feel the need to come up with a hard and fast definition. But you can define "Redan" any way you like. All I am saying is that the historical record indicates that the hole was modeled after the Redan, and the was considered a reversed Redan by many of the leading commentators of the era.
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Mike Cirba,  I don't know if that was true then.  There is an early report of Flynn wanting to grow rough short of the green because he wanted to stop golfers who were running their ball up the hill and onto the green.

David

Yes, you are saying "inspiration" equals Redan....if not, put it in your own words, but it will amout to the same thing with a load of lawyer gibberish tossed in.  In any case, my opinion on what is a Redan doesn't matter a tosh.  We actually have the original in damn near original state.  Its not hard to compare.  You choose to side with the ODGs in a loose interpretation of what charactersitics make up a Redan, which btw is very unlike you if the posts on other threads are any indication.  

Bill

Well at least I got you responding (if briefly) from the 21st century  

Lets say Joe Bloggs decides to build his own Parthenon.  But because the slab in Greece isn't quite to his taste he decides to add windows, a few entrances with porches and name his house Parthenon.  Now, any intelligent person can look at the new creation and readily admit it was inspired by The Parthenon, but just as readily draw the conclusion that it is not a Parthenon.  There is a world of difference between the two concepts...even if the ODGs didn't see it that way.  But, I think they did see it that way and merely used the term "Redan" to convey a general idea rather than a specific set of criteria that would very closely match the original.  It was an easy way to converse among what was a very small group of people....most of whom understood what was meant.  Now that group of interested parties remains small, but is much larger than in the ODG's time.  Using the term willy nilly (such as for downhill holes...which is entirely incorrect) causes great confusion...so much so as to distort (and I think ultimately change) what "Redan" actually means...just as in the case of your Chinese Whispers.  

Patrick

I think the salient charactersitics of The Redan have been combed over many times.  Which is why it is frustrating, given that we have the original in damn near original state, that people can call a blatantly downhill hole a Redan.  But because some ODGs labelled some holes as Redans we are now in a position whereby many people use the term which describes holes that do not convey the salient characteristics of The Redan.  So these days, any angled green with a hazard in the crook is called a redan.  Very sad.

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

Sean and I have had this argument before but let's do it again...

I believe a great Redan has these playing charactristics:

Uphill, at least partially blind approach
Cross bunkers well short of the green
Significant right-to-left tilt to the green and surrounds
Windy site
Angled green
Green runs slightly downhill
Kick mound on the right that will feed a rolling ball towards the green
Very deep angled bunker along front left side of green. (The Redan Bunker)
Greenside bunkers on the right beyond the kick mound
Last, and certainly not least, very fast and firm turf so that the ball will roll to the green, and balls flown to the green will most likely run long.

Taken together, the tee shot on a great Redan makes you take all of this in and give much thought to the shot you plan to play. Shot shape,  intended loft and rollout are critical.

I would use the above as a scoring sheet to judge a Redan. Sean would use each question as pass/fail. Downhill hole? Sorry Charles Blair Macdonald, you failed to build a Redan!

For me, I would take a lot off for being downhill, which is why I don't like the one at Sleepy Hollow. The one at NGLA loses a point or two for being slightly downhill, but there is an element of blindness since you cannot see the putting surface from the tee. And NGLA's hole scores very high on every other category. From the drawings I've seen, the one Macdonald built at Shinnecock was superb, perhaps better than Piping Rock's.

 

[MCirba]

Richard Francis wrote that the 3rd hole at Merion was one of the holes that “benefitted” from Hugh Wilson’s overseas visit and that “the location of the hole lent itself to this design”.  You’ll notice he doesn’t say that they found that location while looking for a redan hole.   He states that they located the hole first, and only then, working within the possibilities and constraints of their natural conditions, determined that applying some redan principles to that location might work well.

This is wholly consistent with what Francis tells us about the purpose of Wilson’s trip abroad.  Francis wrote that the purpose was to “incorporate their good features on our course” after Wilson returned in May of 1911.

Perhaps he got his notes mixed up?  

[Adam Lawrence]

Sean, the Parthenon is in Athens. Do you mean the Pantheon? 

[Carl Rogers]

Cascades 4th ... sorry I could not get this up earlier.  This was taken about 3 weeks ago.  Relative to Jon's photo, has there been some tree clearing?

[DMoriarty]

David

Yes, you are saying "inspiration" equals Redan....if not, put it in your own words, but it will amout to the same thing with a load of lawyer gibberish tossed in.  In any case, my opinion on what is a Redan doesn't matter a tosh.  We actually have the original in damn near original state.  Its not hard to compare.  You choose to side with the ODGs in a loose interpretation of what charactersitics make up a Redan, which btw is very unlike you if the posts on other threads are any indication.

No Sean, I'm NOT saying inspiration equals Redan.  I'm not saying anything else equals Redan either.  I'm neither qualified to make nor interested in making broad normative pronouncements about such things.

As for the old dead guys, I always "side with the ODGs" in the sense that I try to take what they've written seriously and try to understand their words in the context in which they were written. I also try to avoid substituting modern myths, legends, and understandings for their ideas.

Yours is an inquiry about what should be considered a Redan.  Mine is an inquiry about what has been considered a Redan.

[DMoriarty]

Richard Francis . . . states that they located the hole first, and only then, working within the possibilities and constraints of their natural conditions, determined that applying some redan principles to that location might work well,

Speaking of not substituting our ideas for the ideas of the old dead guys . . . Richard Francis did NOT "state" any of what that. Mike is substuting his theory for Francis's words. Francis did say that Merion's Redan benefitted from Wilsons trip abroad, but the hole had already been designed built and seeded before the trip.

But let's please not get into this here. Anyone interested in reading the Francis account without Mike's spin can do so at the link below.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39891.0.html