Ron Whitten on Shinnecock

[JESII]

I think so...care to enlighten us all?

[Jon Cavalier]

Here's the 7th at Philly Country Club:


and the 3rd at Merion East.

[Josh Bills]

I haven't played Merion either, but here is Golfweek's write up for the 2013 US Open, doesn't seem to encourage a typical Redan approach, maybe a reverse Redan?

"The longest par 3 on the course, as well as the largest green on the course, this hole is what Tiger Woods jokingly called “a drivable par-4.” Now 8,700 square feet large, this putting surface was expanded in the back to hold a low-trajectory shot. It’ll play as long as a fairway wood or utility club, though on two days the hole will likely be moved up to 219 yards and play to tighter, more forward hole locations. The green’s shape and the positioning of the three bunkers that frame the surface all call for a left-to-right approach shot; otherwise the ball flight is fighting against the long axis of the green and taking the shallowest line across. Here’s where shot shape becomes all-important – there’s at least twice as much room for the ball to run out when it’s been flighted in from the left."

Am curious as I have seen other write ups that call it a Redan either Jon or Jim or anyone else want to share.

Josh

[DMoriarty]

Merion's third hole was intended as a (reverse) Redan, and was referred to as such throughout the course's early history.  CBM highlighted it as an example of a reverse Redan in his article on the Redan concept in 1914.  

The Redan was just one of the template holes (and template features) at Merion.  The original and since changed tenth hole was referred to as an Alps Hole, the current sixth hole was referred to as Road Hole.  There was also reportedly at attempt at an Eden green.  These were CBM four core templates, but there are other holes and features at Merion which fit the with the design approach espoused by CBM.
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As for the original post, it is a very interesting write-up but there are some errors regarding the early history of Shinnecock. The original course at Shinnecock was 9 holes and designed by William Davis.  In 1893, Dunn redesigned the course and created a 12 hole layout, which he expanded to 18 holes a few years later.

Here is a link to a thread where I set out the early history in some detail.  If you ignore the usual embarrassing nonsense from the usual people, there is some pretty interesting information.  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46842.0.html

[Bill Brightly]

And Flynn did NOT retain the Redan. He dramatically changed it...

Bill,

Are you talking about the recent changes?  Or back in 1930?

1930. Flynn altered the hole and IMHO, it is no longer a Redan. He eliminated the very long angular front left bunker and repaced it with two small bunkers. He eliminated the very long back right bunker, and inserted a front right bunker on top of the old kick mound. Still an awesome hole, but no longer a Redan. That's why I go a little crazy when people start discussing the great Redans and list this hole...

I belong to a Banks course with a Redan hole that was badly altered by William Gordon in 1960 (goodbye back right bunker, hello raised floor of the Redan bunker), well intentioned tree planters in 1970 (hello rough on the kick mound, hello narrow corridor and no more wind influence) and Rees in 1995 (hello dumb little bunker in front of the Redan bunker.) Thankfully, the green remained untouched, the white pines are gone, the kick mound is back, and Banks' bunkers will be restored.

Happily, the Redan hole concept is so strong that it is really hard for Flynn and others to completely muck it up... Macdonald knew what he was doing!

[Jon Cavalier]

Josh:

I agree with Bill regarding the 3rd at Merion - while it displays Redan-like symptoms, I don't consider it a Redan (reverse or otherwise). I've never played it as such, nor do I find that the ball reacts as I would expect it to on a Redan. There is no meaningful kick slope to the left of the green that can be used to direct the tee shot. And the green doesn't slope significantly or consistently from front left to back right.

Here's a view of the green from off the left side:


And here's a view from on the front left side of the green looking up the length of the green toward the right rear:


You can see that while the front right part of the green slopes downward, the majority of the green actually slopes upward from low front right to high back left. So a putt from the back right of the green will be downhill to almost all pin positions.

As Bill notes, this is still a fantastic (and intimidating) par 3. But it's not a Redan in my book.

[Bill Brightly]

Jon,

To be clear, I was writing about what Flynn did to the Redan at Shinnecock, not what Wilson built as Merion's third hole. So when this thread devoles into Merion Part Tres, I take no responsibility, ok? However, I caution you not to make the same (rookie) mistake that I once did: stating that Merion #3 is not a Macdonald-inspired (reverse) Redan based upon what is on the ground now.

[Jon Cavalier]

Bill:

My fault - I'm not sure how I misread your post or crossed your name with someone else's. But I've fixed my post above.

And I appreciate your fair warning. I've read the prior world wars on Merion, and I'm certainly not looking to start the third. But Josh asked a question and I'm happy to give him my opinion. Which remains: that regardless of what the original architects (whoever they might have been   ) intended for the third hole at Merion, my opinion (as a Redan-lover myself) is that the hole currently does not play like one would expect a Redan to play. The critical omission for me is the tilt of the green (the "tilt it a little from right to left," or in this instance, left to right) which isn't present here.

But that's just me. Differences of opinion welcomed, as always.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon

Calling Merion's 3rd a Redan is purely a case of believing what was written 100 years ago against what our eyes tell us today.  Then people will trot out the heavy guns and say they trust McD more than some schmuck today...makes no difference...Merion's 3rd is not a Redan.  The term was an easy way for some to describe holes (still is) that may or may not have been Redans or inspired by the Redan. 

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

Here's the 7th at Philly Country Club:

I've never played the Philadelphia Country Club. Is this hole a Redan? From this photo is does resemble Tillinghast's version at Somerset Hills.

[MCirba]

William Flynn was not a fan of template holes.  Except for those of his own creation. 

[Bill Brightly]

Mike, I have no doubt that Flynn, Tillinghast and others were not a fan of template holes. From a business standpoint, these guys were probably in competition with Raynor on many projects. It is only stands to reason that they would develop a professional rivalry, and their design style, and sales pitch,  would have to be quite different. I know for a fact that Tilly, Ross and Styles & Van Kleek were asked to submit "propositions" for Hackensack, but Banks won the job. I would have love to have the transcripts of each of those guys making their pitch, which almost certainly would have included their comments on the other styles...

I can't prove this, but I think they all took a bit of pleasure erasing much of their rivals work when they got their hands on one of the other's courses. That is evident at Shinnecock with Flynn, and Tillinghast at many MacRaynors when he consulted for the PGA.

[Ken Moum]

The latter fellow also met for the first time last week or so Shinnecock's superintendent, John Jennings, who moved from Chicago GC to Shinnecock GC 4-5 years ago, and was mightily impressed with him."

Thus sayeth The Lurker

Having been a round John a few times when I worked for GCSAA, I can't imagine anyone meeting him and being unimpressed.

[MCirba]

Bill,

I think there's some truth to the competitiveness of the Golden Age architects, although when Flynn did Shinny Raynor was unfortunately quite dead and CBM was no longer practicing.   I wonder what he thought of the changes?   

Also, although I started a thread many years ago titled, "Did Tillinghast Sell Out?" based on his PGA tour during the 1930s, I think we have to be fair to him and the economic circumstances of the day.  Certainly he recommended the removal of a lot of bunkers he himself earlier might have thought good ideas, but he was definitely trying to help clubs cut costs to remain viable.   

[Matt Frey, PGA]

Here's the 7th at Philly Country Club:

I've never played the Philadelphia Country Club. Is this hole a Redan? From this photo is does resemble Tillinghast's version at Somerset Hills.

Here's a look from the tees, courtesy of Joe Bausch:

[Kevin_D]

I thought #11 at Philly CC was the redan

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

I think there's some truth to the competitiveness of the Golden Age architects, although when Flynn did Shinny Raynor was unfortunately quite dead and CBM was no longer practicing.   I wonder what he thought of the changes?   

Also, although I started a thread many years ago titled, "Did Tillinghast Sell Out?" based on his PGA tour during the 1930s, I think we have to be fair to him and the economic circumstances of the day.  Certainly he recommended the removal of a lot of bunkers he himself earlier might have thought good ideas, but he was definitely trying to help clubs cut costs to remain viable.   

I don't know much about the relationship between Macdonald and Shinnecock, but it is not much of a reach to assume that he would have been extremely disappointed with what Flynn did to the Redan hole, especially the new front right bunker placed on the kick mound.

[MCirba]

It's interesting that you say that Bill.  Macdonald lived through what most of us today view as the Golden Age of Ross, Mackenzie, et.al., but other than what was related about Pine Valley I can't recall a single comment he made regarding another architects work.

[Bill Brightly]

So we are left to speculate on what CBM thought of Flynn's work. We know that he believed that he had created a masterpiece at NGLA and he wrote highly of the playing qualities of the Redan at N.B., so he could not possibly have approved of Flynn's changes. Then again, hadn't CBM been asked to resign before Flynn did the work? Maybe CBM never saw the work!

It is interesting to note the similarities of the current greenside bunkering at SH #7 and Philly CC #7, especially the "split" bunkers on the left diagonal cut of the green. This contrasts with the one long bunker on Macdonald's Redans.

You know much more about Flynn than I do, so I'll accept that he did not like templates. If he truly was a "nature faker" then the boldness of a true Redan would not have appealed to Flynn. I have little problem assuming Flynn took much satisfaction in erasing CBM's work on this hole and the other Macdonald-Raynor holes. 

[MCirba]

So we are left to speculate on what CBM thought of Flynn's work. We know that he believed that he had created a masterpiece at NGLA and he wrote highly of the playing qualities of the Redan at N.B., so he could not possibly have approved of Flynn's changes. Then again, hadn't CBM been asked to resign before Flynn did the work? Maybe CBM never saw the work!

It is interesting to note the similarities of the current greenside bunkering at SH #7 and Philly CC #7, especially the "split" bunkers on the left diagonal cut of the green. This contrasts with the one long bunker on Macdonald's Redans.

You know much more about Flynn than I do, so I'll accept that he did not like templates. If he truly was a "nature faker" then the boldness of a true Redan would not have appealed to Flynn. I have little problem assuming Flynn took much satisfaction in erasing CBM's work on this hole and the other Macdonald-Raynor holes. 

Bill,

Your assumption on the part of both men is likely correct. 

Can you imagine those two on GolfClubAtlas?   

[Bill Brightly]

We know a bit about CBM, how would you describe Flynn's personality? Is there a current figure to whom he might compare?

[MCirba]

Jim,

Good question.   I'd hate to characterize him but imagine a very stocky Boston athlete who was meticulously detailed in virtually all of his endeavors who managed to come into Philadelphia, conquer it (he designed almost everything of note in the area during that period) and rubbed elbows with the wealthiest men in the country at places like Shinnecock and Boca Raton. 

He had to be a charmer, I'd say.

[MCirba]

Bill,

The following 1925 article unearthed not long ago by Joe Bausch probably is a good indication that Flynn was indeed striving for natural effect in his courses and also it's likely fair to say that some degree of civic competitiveness colored the writer's piece.  

[DMoriarty]

. . . I can't recall a single comment he made regarding another architects work.

Was Raynor not an architect?   
Was including MacKenzie's award winning hole at the Lido not a comment/endorsement of MacKenzie's work? 
What about repeat mentions of the ideas of Low, Hutchinson, and others?
How about the mention of the work of Dealy, Lucas, and Hutchins at Sandwich, which CBM referred to as "the last word in golf?"

[DMoriarty]

Jon

Calling Merion's 3rd a Redan is purely a case of believing what was written 100 years ago against what our eyes tell us today.

These two options are really two different approaches to answering two different questions.  If one is concerned with understanding the history of golf course design in America and the contextual framework in which Merion's third was created, then the only approach is to look at how the hole was understood at the time. In this regard, the historical record leaves no doubt.  Merion's 3rd was designed and built to be a reversed redan hole, and it was understood as such by men such as Macdonald, Whigham, Robert Lesley, Findlay, Travis, Tillinghast, etc.  

Alternatively, if one is concerned with one's own contemporary definition of what a golf hole needs to be to qualify as a "Redan", then that is a different (and largely semantic) discussion.  I'd think that some might look to the history for guidance in this, but others (like Sean) disagree.  To each his own.

As for me, I don't much care what qualifies as a "Redan" today, absent what the description meant historically.  That is why I limited my comments to the historical context.