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DMoriarty

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Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #300 on: July 01, 2015, 07:45:03 PM »
These guys just make stuff up. I am not even sure what Jeff thinks he is talking about in his post above.
IMHO, it would have to be an extraordinary case of the routing being done just a bit too late for P&H to send it to the print shop.  Golfers would be interested in the golf course, if it was known.  When I put up a routing plan at a meeting, they flock to it, and are mesmerized.
What meeting? While I am sure Brauer's plans would have "mesmerizing" there was no such member's meeting at Merion.  He is just fantasizing, I guess.
And who does he think would have come up with this plan?  Pugh and Hubbard?  What would the engineers who created the map know of the plan for the golf course?
Why would Merion have published a preliminary plan when CBM and HJW had not signed off on it yet, when obviously Merion was were following their lead?
This nonsense about how the map should contain a stick routing is nothing but a false condition, and a pretty sad one at that.
Quote
If it was a vote on the final golf course plan and configuration, wouldn't the meeting notes say that?  They surely did in April 1911, when the committee told the board how they arrived at the routing, showed a plan, etc.  Why would the minutes not record such a momentous event? Or, get it wrong?
A vote on the "final golf course plan and configuration?"  Another false condition.  Pretend the plan was final, then pretend they should have had a vote on it. Then pretend that because that there wasn't a vote, that this proves there was no plan. In other words, more fantasy.   
Quote
Not to mention, I can't believe any club would put a property purchase up for a vote using a map they knew was wrong.  It seems as if that would potentially be seen as criminal fraud.  Perhaps the most perplexing thing about David's position, is as a trained lawyer, I doubt he would feel comfortable if his clients were doing this.
- A vote?  What the hell is he talking about? There was no vote of the members on the November Land Plan. He is just making shit up. Again.   
- Criminal fraud?  In what jurisdiction is it "criminal fraud" to mark a road on a map "Approximate Location of the Road" when the location of the road is approximate? 
- And who said the map wasn't accurate?  I don't know if it was accurate or not.   
Quote
I will say that I usually understand where David comes from.  The minutes also say "experts are at work" suggesting some overlap, and I get that.
There wasn't just a mention of "experts at work," there were multiple press accounts suggesting that  Barker and/or CBM/HJW were planning the course.  But of course they will ignore this because facts that don't fit are ignored.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 07:56:15 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #301 on: July 01, 2015, 07:52:14 PM »
The map was prepared by P+H for  the Merion Cricket Club to show the 117 acres Merion had secured for their new Golf Course to its members and was sent out to them the day it came off the press.

I think it very accurately reflects the state of things as of that date.
So then you have no evidence that it was Merion who had the map created. You were just making things up. No surprise.

The map is titled "Proposed Golf Course for Merion Cricket Club." It doesn't indicate who had the map prepared.  Given that the map shows all sort of things that have nothing to do with Merion Cricket Club and which have a lot to do with HDC's development, it seems most likely that this HDC had the map created.  It looks like their plat map.
Quote
Who cares if Merion or HDC paid?      How is that material to the content?
It is only material to the false condition you have inserted into the discussion.

It's preposterous to assume that a course routing wouldn't have been included on a scale property map if one existed at that time, mailed to the membership the same day it was produced.
Whenever you start in on what is "preposterous" we know that you are outside the facts. 

You noted that this map was created by the engineers, and sent out that very day to Merion members that very day.  So who is it, exactly, who should have drawn the preliminary plan on the map?  The engineers?  Did Pugh and Hubbard design the course? Did the know anything about the plans?  Of course not.
___________________________________________

Look at what you two have done here.  You've arbitrarily invented a hoop for us to jump through which makes absolutely no sense.  There is no reason to expect that a preliminary golf course plan would appear realtor's plat map when CBM hadn't yet even approved the final plan.  There is no reason to expect that these engineers would even be aware of the plan, much less include it on the property map.

Yet you pretend that the absence of a stick routing means they hadn't even begun planning?  Really? This is the crux of your argument?  Give us a break.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 07:55:57 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #302 on: July 01, 2015, 08:08:01 PM »
These last few pages are indicative why these "conversations" will never go anywhere.

Mike and Jeff just come up with these strange hoops for the rest of us to jump through, and insist the hoops provide all of our answers.   

It is unreasonable to expect that a real estate development plot map created by planning engineers who had nothing to do with planning the golf course would feature the preliminary plans for that golf course months before those plans had been approved.

But they'll keep at it, and when they are done with this one, they'll just recycle the next hoop (like Brauer's Raynor theory) and be off for another five or ten pages.  It is almost as if they know that if they stop spinning out these fantasies and consider what we actually know, there is very little still at issue here, at least not among reasonable observers.

Who gives a shit about the Francis land swap?   CBM was a major creative force behind the plan no matter when the swap occurred. Merion's own records establish that.  All this fighting about the minutia is just a way for Mike, Jeff and their friends to keep hope alive.  Just like Mike tried to do for years after I proved Wilson didn't travel abroad until after the course was planned.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 08:09:44 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Rich Goodale

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Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #303 on: July 02, 2015, 03:04:42 AM »


Rich,

I remember those arguments about "laying out".  Did you notice in the Evans letter of November 15 that he used "laying off" and "put in shape"?  Two more terms to add to the lexicon.

"In accordance with instructions given me by the Board of Government of the Merion Cricket Club, I beg to state that a Corporation will be formed on behalf of the Club, which will purchase the tract of land above mentioned one hundred and seventeen (117) acres, at the price or sum of Eighty-five thousand dollars ($85,000.00), in accordance with the terms of your proposition, as quoted above, and that as soon as this Corporation obtains possession of the property, we will at once proceed to lay off, and put in shape a Golf Links."


No, I didn't notice this, Bryan.

As I can find no evidence that "lay off" has never meant anything but what it does today (denoting a negative action rather than a positive one), so I assume that Evans meant to say "lay out" (i.e. design) and just had a senior moment.  As for "put in shape" I take that to mean construction, including shaping (i.e.what happens after a course has been designed/laid out--tees and greens identified, general routing and fairway angles identified) .

My guess is that at that time, all they had was essentially a stick drawing (one of the five which they created and presented to CBM and Whigham for comment).  Detailed planning had probably not been done yet, which is logical given that they didn't yet own the land.

David and others guess differently.  Vive la differeance!
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #304 on: July 02, 2015, 03:25:04 AM »


Sorry for the confusion.  Back six years ago I was assessing the impact of the approximate road boundary from the land plan vs the deeded boundary along GHR on the overall acreage of the golf course property. I used this overlay with the RR map from 6 years ago because it showed the approximate and final GHR alignments. There is no significance to the RR map overlay.  The alignment of the approximate road from the land plan contained 4 more acres than did the alignment of Golf House Road, as built and as deeded.  So, the land plan measured approximately 124 acres and the deeded acreage was 120.01 acres since the other boundaries were the same.  The point was that the plan which the letter purported showed the 117 acre golf course, did not.  It showed an area more like 124 acres.   




Bryan,


I am confused. What measured 124 acres? The RR atlas or the Nov.1910 Pugh and Hubbard land plan? I assume you mean the Nov 1910 Pugh and Hubbard plan, but the image above is of the 1913 Atlas.

My copy of the 1910 land plan (the one from my IMO) is a flat scan.  I am pretty sure you have a copy of that.
____________________________

Mike,

Nothing in your latest post changes the fact that, according to Lesley and Merion's board, Merion set out to lay out the course according to the plan approved by CBM and HJW.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #305 on: July 02, 2015, 03:44:01 AM »

Mike,

Here's a picture of the land plan with a red rectangle of 130 yards by 190 yards that encompasses the current 15th green and 16th tee. Where else do you suppose Francis could have meant it to be? It is already largely included in the land plan. 


MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #306 on: July 02, 2015, 07:40:45 AM »
Bryan,

I'm confused.  Those dimensions of the triangle (rectangle?) don't match the width of the base you've previously measured using the scale ruler of the map. 

Previous estimates of the base have ranged from my somewhat stingy 95 yards to David's generously philanthropic 110 yards.

Your own was tough to tell exactly as you used thick red and blue lines to delineate the difference between that drawing and the as-built although I greatly appreciate your efforts and recognize the limitations of working with such a scaled down representation.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #307 on: July 02, 2015, 08:09:41 AM »
Mike,


No one is making the leap that the triangle on the map is 130X190 so why debate the exact length of the 130 (or 110, or 95) yards when the big issue in Bryan's measuring is the 124 acres enclosed on that map which you have repeatedly insisted was to scale at 117 acres.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #308 on: July 02, 2015, 08:21:58 AM »
Mike, looking at old posts, I believe Bryan's previous attempt to measure came out at 115 to the road.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #309 on: July 02, 2015, 08:40:07 AM »

Who gives a shit about the Francis land swap?   CBM was a major creative force behind the plan no matter when the swap occurred. Merion's own records establish that.  All this fighting about the minutia is just a way for Mike, Jeff and their friends to keep hope alive.  Just like Mike tried to do for years after I proved Wilson didn't travel abroad until after the course was planned. 

I could go point by point and show where David does all the things he accuses Mike and I of, but there is no need.  Despite him saying he just wants to know what happened, anyone who says "who gives a shit" about a major piece of the puzzle couldn't really care that much.  Saying that "CBM is the creative genius behind MCC" really gets to the heart of the debate, doesn't it?

David's non-negotiable over these 7 years is that we give CBM what he feels is his due credit.  I think Golf Digest has changed attribution on MCC.  Merion itself and the USGA remain silent, and I presume it means they are satisfied with the status quo credit, and of course, the Merionettes (insulting and clever at the same time, Patrick, so I don't mind) sure haven't.

To be honest, while I disagree on small points (for about 6.5 years) at the very least, David's position is understandable.  No doubt, CBM was a creative genius, at NGLA for sure, and Merion was a copycat, using his formula of template holes. Others were, too, as he set a style of design that was very fashionable for a while.  (all of which may also be debated, since the amateur design committee declined, and only he and Raynor repeated the template style consistently)

There is no doubt Merion would have looked much different initially if they had not consulted with CBM, and everyone agrees to that.  So, in that sense, David is correct, but as I alluded, he seems to want to be 100% correct.  I think its less than 100% but let's try to explain my position a bit differently that using actual daily participation at MCC in 1910-11.

At Tidewater in Myrtle Beach, Rees Jones routed and maybe did a preliminary features plan, but the owner took over, and built a very non-Rees style course.  Rees doesn't really acknowledge it as his course, the Owner does.

In a hypothetical case, imagine an owner contacts Tom Doak, pays an initial fee (yes, I know this is not 100% parallel to the MCC case) and gets a routing and maybe some sketches of Tom's best ideas.  He then takes over and constructs it with his own crew, and the course ends up looking nothing like a Tom Doak course. If the end initial result looks and plays nothing like a Doak, was he, with his limited involvement really the creative genius?  It would be hard for anyone, including Tom to claim or want to claim that. And, in today's world, and maybe back then too, there is an idea that a complex process ought to be credited to someone. It is understandable that MCC over the years and based on daily activity chose their committee.

So, why did HJW make the claim years later in the eulogy?  I can only guess that the same sort of credit debates and thoughts existed back then as they do today, with HJW and David being soul mates across the decades.


It is perhaps best to acknowledge that David has a strongly held view (pretty obvious) and some reasonable notion to back it up, even if his essay was written before many documents were available (but caused them to be available) and he did IMHO interpret many things wrong, which happens in the historic process.


It is what it is. It's not likely to change, no matter how many times we go on the Merion-go-round.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 08:43:20 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #310 on: July 02, 2015, 09:10:59 AM »
Saying that "CBM is the creative genius behind MCC" really gets to the heart of the debate, doesn't it?
My goodness Jeff, you can't even resist misquoting me when you have just cut and pasted my exact quote. What I wrote was "CBM was a major creative force behind the plan no matter when the swap occurred."  You may not understand the subtle distinctions between this and "CBM is the creative genius behind MCC," but I hope others do.

As for the rest, you seem to be talking about "credit" whereas I am I have always talked about input and influence. You also seem to be confusing aesthetic stylings with architectural principles such as the routing and hole concepts. I am glad, though, that you seem willing to acknowledge that CBM had input into and influence over the course at Merion.

ADDED:   And I do care about details such as the land swap, but at this point, given all that we know now, my thesis isn't dependent upon any particular understanding of the land swap. There is plenty of evidence of CBM's influence over the course no matter when the Francis swap took place.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 09:23:05 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #311 on: July 02, 2015, 09:51:27 AM »
David,

Your post was animated, for sure, so maybe you didn't really mean you didn't give a hoot about a major detail.  But, it seems your thesis doesn't really depend on a whole lot of truly established facts either, not just the land swap.

When facts don't really matter, it is hard to discuss.  When you tell Mike words like hyperbole and preposterous mean he isn't really arguing with facts, but you use nonsensical, illogical, etc., it isn't the same thing?  You attack the details we support, but never really answer the big questions? 

To be fair, I agreed with you on influence, if not total input, which we can probably can never know, and can debate endlessly. 

But to me, if they did the routing, and he reviewed and selected one, it is different than him doing the routing, which is NOT supported by any documents, despite your statement that "its all over the record". It simply is not, and you admitted many posts back that you don't have any evidence of any more contact/work than the three documented meetings.

Similarly, we know they used his templates, but did they simply learn about his templates at NGLA and use them, or did CBM specifically locate them on the course, most likely in that April meeting after the routing was finalized?

We will never know.   Based on what I know about the golf course design process, I have my visions about what would have been like.  You have different visions.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #312 on: July 02, 2015, 09:59:06 AM »
Stop with the distortions Jeff.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #313 on: July 02, 2015, 10:05:13 AM »
Jeff,


You created a hypothetical example with a predetermined conclusion and equated it with what happened at Merion.   That's an invalid comparison.


As to the term "Merionettes", there was nothing insulting intended.


It was an apt description of a particular faction.


But, we agree that it was "clever" ;D

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #314 on: July 02, 2015, 10:07:15 AM »
Mike,


No one is making the leap that the triangle on the map is 130X190 so why debate the exact length of the 130 (or 110, or 95) yards when the big issue in Bryan's measuring is the 124 acres enclosed on that map which you have repeatedly insisted was to scale at 117 acres.

Jim,

Great question, but I'm not the one who is contending that the area demarcated on the map in green is the 117 acres Merion had secured for their golf course on what is clearly a scale map.  Merion said it was 117 acres, multiple times, in the letter accompanying that "Plan", as they called it.

Drawn on that map as well is what is today Golf House Road, clearly intended to be the boundary between golf course and real estate even back then.   Because it didn't yet exist (because we know from Cuyler's letter over a month later that the golf course had not been definitely located and the boundary hadn't yet been determined), it was identified as "Approximate Location of Road".

Yet as you say, no one can say that the area in question at the top of the map is 130x190, which were the dimensions that Richard Francis told us he exchanged land for, and what the course is built to even today.  In fact, it was much narrower and much longer.   

What does that tell you?   What does the fact that the golf course portion of the "plan" actually measures 124 acres and not 117 acres at that point in time tell you?   What does that tell you about the state of the "planning" effort to date.   

This wasn't some old map drawn during initial discussions.   This was a hot-off-the-press, up-to-date, same day still cooling from the printer representation of the state of things as of November 15, 1910 and mailed excitedly to the Merion membership the same day it was created.   

I think it's humorously ironic that David now doesn't give a sh*t about the map and rushes to disavow anything about its accuracy and heritage like a tow-headed stepchild in Ethiopia.   When he first found it, he offered it as proof positive that the Francis Exchange had to have happened prior to January 1911 in an attempt to discredit Hugh Wilson with the routing even though I would think he had to have noticed that the area in question at the top of the map was not 130x190 as Francis needed, but instead something considerably narrower and longer. 

Here is a portion of what David wrote in his essay, the italics and bolding for emphasis are mine;

As quoted by Tolhurst, Francis wrote that Merion gave up “land west of the present course which did not fit in with any golf layout;” land which was later “covered by fine homes along Golf House Road.” In exchange, Merion received a small section of “land about 130 yards wide by 190 yards long – the present location of the 15th green and the 16th tee.” No doubt Francis was describing the land between the present practice area and Golf House Road, a small triangle of land that perfectly matches Francis’ description. More importantly, the land was acquired while Merion was putting the finishing touches on the routing plan for the course. So the date of the supposed “swap” will allow us to determine when the final touches were being put on the initial routing plan.

Surprisingly, as one can see in the land plan above, Merion acquired this small projection of land as part of the 117-acre parcel designated “Merion Golf Course” in the Plan. Merion optioned and purchased the land for the 15th green and 16th tee as part of their option and purchase of the bulk of the golf course property. Property records confirm this. The supposed land swap must have occurred prior to mid-November 1910, when Merion obtained an option from Haverford Development Company. This was six weeks before the purchase was finalized and the Construction Committee appointed. The “swap” was not a swap at all but actually a small but significant reshaping of the large parcel Merion intended to purchase from Haverford Development Company. Before the purchase, the parties must have agreed to shave off a portion on the right side of the parcel and added the projection of land for the 15th green and 16th tee.

Francis and Lloyd had been fine-tuning the layout plan before Merion secured the land. Francis described his epiphany as having occurred while he was looking over a “map of the property.” He also noted that the land Merion gave up “did not fit at all in any golf layout.” So by this time the planning process was well underway, and the “swap” allowed them to better fit the last five holes into the plan for the routing. “It was not very difficult to get the first 13 holes into the upright portion – with the help of a little ground on the north side of Ardmore avenue – but the last five holes were another question.” The Francis land “swap” allowed them to complete the routing plan. All before November 10, 1910.


This was the keystone of David's essay that sought to remove Hugh Wilson from authorship of the Merion East Course, his "Holy Grail" finding, if you will, and the lynchpin supporting his entire argument.   

Now he tell us he doesn't even think Pugh and Hubbard measured the golf course for that map!!   ::)    And, I have no idea what he's referring to when he wrote, "Property records confirm this", do you?

But as you say, the dimensions of that triangle don't match what Francis told us he needed to fit those last five holes into the routing.   The map itself isn't 117 acres according to Bryan, but more like 124 acres.   

Do you think it would have mattered to Richard Francis that the proposed boundary was 100 or so yards wide when he needed 130 yards in width to fit those holes?

David's essay also tells us that the 3 acres of Railroad Land had not been yet acquired at the time the map was drawn by Pugh & Hubbard, and that's apparent by the fact that it is not shaded in green and identified as part of the "Golf Course" as of November 15, 1910.   Here's some of what David's essay said about that matter;

But the “Plan Showing Proposed Golf Course” is a few acres short. The Site Committee had sought “nearly 120 acres,” not 117 acres. The Plan does not include one small tract – a little less than three acres – that the Site Committee needed for the course. Like the “Dallas Estate,” this last small parcel was not under the control of Haverford Development Company at the time site committee recommended its purchase. Unlike the “Dallas Estate,” the Merion may have been unable to secure this parcel prior to the date Merion secured the rest of the land.

 Merion’s Unsecured Three Acres Like much of their original golf course in Ardmore, the remaining small tract of land needed for Merion’s “permanent course” was controlled by a railroad. The Philadelphia and Western Railway owned almost three acres located west of their track, east of Cobb’s Creek, and running north of Ardmore Avenue to a little past the old historic farmhouse that would become Merion’s future clubhouse.


And David's correct here; if Merion had indeed determined that those three acres were part of the golf course by that time it should have been included on the "plan", no?   

Yet, it's not, so what what does that tell us about the state of planning at the time this map was drawn on November 15, 1910?

Here again is what Richard Francis wrote;

"Except for many hours over a drawing board, running instruments in the field, and just plain talking, I made but one important contribution to the layout of the course.   The land was shaped like a capital "L" and it was not very difficult to get the first 13 holes into the upright position - with the help of a little ground on the north side of Ardmore Avenue - but the last 5 holes were another question. 

I was looking at a map of the property one night when I had an idea.


What map do you think he was looking at?   Something from Pugh & Hubbard or something he had drawn prior to November 15th, 1910?   Clearly his brainstorm happened after they had determined they could use those three acres of Railroad land they leased for decades, right?

If he had a map that indicated a completed golf course based on his brainstorm, why wouldn't they have mailed that to their members?   Why wouldn't they put their best foot forward showing all of their supposed prior months of golf course planning efforts that they'd supposedly just concluded?

Instead, they sent a map with dimensions much unlike the course they eventually planned that did not include a single proposed golf hole.   What does that tell you?

Related, if all of that land was under Lloyd's ownership for him to do what he pleased by November 15, 1910, why did he feel the need to purchase the entire 140 acre Johnson Farm and 21 acre Dallas Estate a month later?   Recall that he made that purchase under the advice of Merion's counsel a month later because the boundaries of the golf course had not yet been determined and it was stated in Cuyler's late December letter to Merion that it was known that those determinations would be at some yet unknown future date.

Richard Francis was very precise.   He told us precisely what he needed to complete the routing plan and fit in the last five holes.   How is that congruous with any of the imprecision and uncertainty associated with this "plan", as well as the timing of other events?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 10:32:36 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #315 on: July 02, 2015, 10:46:10 AM »
I love that these guys keep posting snippets from my essay, as garbled as it may be.  It holds up remarkably well considering the years of scrutiny, and considering I had not yet be given access to the MCC Minutes.

Almost everything in it has been borne out by the facts, and Cirba and friends are no closer to refuting the remaining key points than they were seven years ago.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #316 on: July 02, 2015, 10:57:32 AM »
Mike,


I can't process that entire post that was directed at me a couple posts ago...I can say that the golf course could have been routed and built almost exactly as it is today if the boundaries were in fact determined by that "Approximate Location of Road". This is a fact. You seem to think the route around the quarry on 16 had the committee stumped. This is a bad argument for a couple of reasons:


1 - The two holes that immediately follow the 16th have much longer carries than the carry required on 16 and neither has even the possibility of a bailout. Even if the "ladies aid' were never maintained as fairway, people could have gone around if necessary.


2 - The other is that there are several (I counted once but forget) green-next-to-tee areas fit into much tighter space than the 15th green/16th tee would have been if limited to the area on the map.


Francis makes it very clear that the 15th green and 16th tee were on newly acquired land...your interpretation of the swap only adds the side of the 15th fairway and half of the 14th green...

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #317 on: July 02, 2015, 11:33:17 AM »
Jim,

Please see my comments below in blue, thanks.

Mike,

I can't process that entire post that was directed at me a couple posts ago...I can say that the golf course could have been routed and built almost exactly as it is today if the boundaries were in fact determined by that "Approximate Location of Road". This is a fact. You seem to think the route around the quarry on 16 had the committee stumped. This is a bad argument for a couple of reasons:

Jim, sorry you can't process my entire post because I think all of the material is very relevant to the timing of events.  I'd really like to hear your answers to those questions as I think you know I respect your opinion a great deal and they are all sincere questions. 

Related to your brief answer, however, your contention that the golf course could have been routed and built "almost exactly" as it is today is exactly the point, isn't it?  Despite their efforts they couldn't fit the last five holes.   I'm sure it was driving Francis crazy as he sat pouring over that map.

So, do you think it's realistic to conclude that they were so off in routing their first 13 holes that they'd essentially painted themselves into a quarry-bound corner, needing an entire almost 5 acre addition to fit those last five holes or do you think they needed to tweak their borders, giving back land not used for any of their possible routings across from the clubhouse to gain some more on top from their original projections to get to close to the desired 117 acre total purchase?   In the end, they needed to purchase 120 acres.   


1 - The two holes that immediately follow the 16th have much longer carries than the carry required on 16 and neither has even the possibility of a bailout. Even if the "ladies aid' were never maintained as fairway, people could have gone around if necessary.

Jim, where were they possibly going to built alternate routes on 17 and 18?  17 tees off from a cliff wall and 18 is tight to the eastern border against land that HDC didn't own.   The only place that they could build one was around the quarry on 16, which they did.   

The original 15th tee was right behind the 14th green, directly adjacent to Golf House Road.  It was only years later that it was brought over near the alternate fairway on 16.   Whether you think they needed to build that fairway or not, the fact is that they thought they needed to or they wouldn't have done it, right?. 


2 - The other is that there are several (I counted once but forget) green-next-to-tee areas fit into much tighter space than the 15th green/16th tee would have been if limited to the area on the map.

It wasn't the area at the top of the triangle that was so much the problem, but the area at the base and below that wasn't wide enough that was corrected by the Francis Exchange.   



Francis makes it very clear that the 15th green and 16th tee were on newly acquired land...your interpretation of the swap only adds the side of the 15th fairway and half of the 14th green...

Yes, I agree that it was newly acquired land, just not the entire 130x190 parcel.   

I think at this point even David is in agreement that the Pugh & Hubbard November 15th 1910 Land Plan are NOT the boundaries that Richard Francis was working with when he made his swap.   Heck, David now doesn't even believe Pugh & Hubbard measured the golf course for that survey!  :o

If that map denoted 124 acres how could it have been?   And if it was, why is it still so flawed and inaccurate after all of his detailed laboring?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 12:12:38 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #318 on: July 02, 2015, 11:47:15 AM »
I love that these guys keep posting snippets from my essay, as garbled as it may be.  It holds up remarkably well considering the years of scrutiny, and considering I had not yet be given access to the MCC Minutes.

Almost everything in it has been borne out by the facts, and Cirba and friends are no closer to refuting the remaining key points than they were seven years ago.

David,

We ask legitimate questions.  Even where there is a chance at differing interpretations (and much of the record does lend itself to that) ours is not an unreasonable one, even if it differs from yours.

The facts remain, that you have never offered any concrete proof of CBM's involvement beyond those three meetings, but still believe he was the creative genius.  I can see the latter to a degree, but that isn't going to satisfy you, until apparently we all agree with your mostly undocumented, and largely inferred position on CBM's total role at Merion.

However, this and many of your posts simply presume you are right, and everyone knows it.  Sort of your tactic of "vouching for your own evidence" which as you know, wouldn't be allowed in court for obvious reasons, and for similar reasons, isn't at all convincing here.

Add in most of your responses are attacks and deflections, and picking at any possible detail while avoiding the harder questions, etc.   As stated, you are the type of person who (at least in your internet personality, I have never met you in person) just disagrees with everything, and really finds a way to disagree with something as a first priority.

I doubt too many neutral readers are changing their minds at this late date. A shame really, as people with common interest in golf architecture history would seemingly be birds of feather, not adversaries.  Maybe I will go back in my hole a while......at least until another thread on another course morphs into a Merion thread. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #319 on: July 02, 2015, 11:55:51 AM »
Saying that "CBM is the creative genius behind MCC" really gets to the heart of the debate, doesn't it?
My goodness Jeff, you can't even resist misquoting me when you have just cut and pasted my exact quote. What I wrote was "CBM was a major creative force behind the plan no matter when the swap occurred."  You may not understand the subtle distinctions between this and "CBM is the creative genius behind MCC," but I hope others do.


BTW, what is really funny about this statement is that in re-reading the essay, and as is obvious in the snippets posted even on this thread is the number of times David took partial quotes, inserted his interpretations, and then went back to quotes, as if to give the impression that the whole sentence was a quote from history.

Just another example of his long time modus operandi of a double standard for him (because he pats himself on the back as the smartest guy in the room so often) and the rest of us.

So, what is are the real things that have made these discussions so hard?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

MCirba

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Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #320 on: July 02, 2015, 12:03:44 PM »
Jeff,

I agree 100%

I think if David's essay proved itself, it would have been accepted by the golf world at large and Merion in particular.   

I think the net benefit of David's essay is that we all learned much more about the history of Merion through the additional digging for source materials so it wasn't a fruitless exercise.

But if you or I think he's going to budge 1 inch from even the most obvious of inaccuracies or make any concessions to advance the conversation, we're just pissing in the wind.   Like you, I really am becoming redundant and if he's still proud of his essay and believes it's accurate, so be it.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #321 on: July 02, 2015, 12:28:42 PM »
Mike,

Well,, I agree 99%, is that enough for you? :)

Seriously, I agree that had it been a slam dunk, yes, most would have embraced it.  Historical treatise like David's have no no scoreboard proclaiming a winner, but only a general consensus.  I don't think the world at large has taken it as gospel, but could be wrong, and certainly the personalities involved here are never going to come to any consensus.

But, it did help bring more facts forward, so we are grateful to all who dig that stuff out, like David, Bryan, Joe, etc..

Excuse me, but I need to go out to the back 40, where there is another dead horse to beat......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #322 on: July 02, 2015, 12:42:09 PM »

Mike,

Not sure why you're confused.  I simply drew a rectangle that's 130 yards wide and 190 yards high using the scale on the plan.  My point was that the plan shows the golf course occupying a good portion of that rectangle.  So, I wondered where else you thought Francis might have meant the 130 x 190 yard piece of land to be located (that they did not own, and where the 15th green and 16 tee ended up).

By the way, do we all agree that Francis didn't say it was a triangle? 









Bryan,

I'm confused.  Those dimensions of the triangle (rectangle?) don't match the width of the base you've previously measured using the scale ruler of the map. 

Previous estimates of the base have ranged from my somewhat stingy 95 yards to David's generously philanthropic 110 yards.

Your own was tough to tell exactly as you used thick red and blue lines to delineate the difference between that drawing and the as-built although I greatly appreciate your efforts and recognize the limitations of working with such a scaled down representation.

MCirba

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Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #323 on: July 02, 2015, 03:05:20 PM »
Bryan,

What are you coming up with as an estimate of the base of that triangle in yardage?

I first used the colored photo and came up with something short of 300 feet, or less than 100 yards wide, as seen here (note to everyone; that first marking should be 200 feet, although it looks like 100 feet);




Then I thought perhaps I was introducing some unintentional distortion based on the angle of the photo so I went back to David's original, which he told us was shot straight on, but I really don't see a noticeable difference.   It still appears to me to be about 90 or so yards, somewhere less than 300 feet wide, and that may be somewhat generous.   Would you agree?

Even if it was 100 yards wide, which it doesn't appear to be, that would be a 25% margin of error.   If it's 90, which is closer to what it looks like to me, that would be a 30% deviation from what Francis told us he needed.   

These aren't trivial margins of error for a Civil Engineer.





I also came across an overlay that I believe you did way back when, although the connected red dots may have been something I added whose purpose escapes me now.

In any case, I think they do show pretty clearly how narrow that drawing was north of the clubhouse if it was truly meant to illustrate the golf course after Richard Francis had his brainstorm.   Thanks for your insight.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 03:13:52 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

JESII

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Re: Ron Whitten on Shinnecock
« Reply #324 on: July 02, 2015, 03:50:17 PM »
Mike,


You're fixated on the notion that the moment Francis had his epiphany the exact shape of the entire course fell into shape...I don't think anyone else feels that way. His idea simply made it clear that this parcel would fit the golf course and they could then proceed to plan and build the holes.