Ron Whitten on Shinnecock

[MCirba]

Since much of this discussion related to the 3rd, or "redan" hole at Merion, and since David's questions bring up what Alan Wilson wrote in 1926 about the genesis of the two Merion courses, I thought it appropriate to reproduce that letter in whole here for easy reference.   Note his comments about the Committee's usage of "natural hazards" wherever possible, particularly on the 3rd hole, which Hugh Alison evidently thought "the best green he had seen in America."
 
For the record, I have a somewhat different interpretation of Wilson's statement that Macdonald and Whigham's advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of Merion East were of the greatest help and value." than does David, if I am interpreting him correctly.   I think Wilson is discussing their advice and suggestions in general based on the three events he mentions, and not specific to the Wilson Committee's visit to NGLA.   I say that because to my knowledge, Alan Wilson was not part of the Committee that ventured to NGLA and thus would have little basis to make that determination other than hearsay.   Others can certainly intepret as they see fit in the context of the entire piece.
 
For your understanding, here is the Alan Wilson letter in entirety;
 
Mr. William R. Philler,
Haverford, Pa.

Dear Mr. Philler:-

      You asked me to write you up something about the beginnings of the East and West courses for use in the Club history, and I warned you that I did this sort of thing very badly. You insisted, however, so I have done the best I could and enclose the article herewith. If it is not what you want, please do not hesitate to destroy it and to ask someone else to write you something which will better suit your purpose.

      I am very glad you are writing the club history. It ought to be done because unless put on paper these things which are interesting in themselves are apt to be forgotten,-- and I do not know of anyone who would do the work so well as you.

                  With regards, I am,
                     Sincerely,
                        Alan D. Wilson



Merion’s East and West Golf Courses

   There were unusual and interesting features connected with the beginnings of these two courses which should not be forgotten. First of all, they were both “Homemade”. When it was known that we must give up the old course, a “Special Committee on New Golf Grounds”—composed of the late Frederick L. Baily. S.T. Bodine, E.C. Felton, H.G. Lloyd, and Robert Lesley, Chairman, chose the site; and a “Special Committee” designed and built the two courses without the help of a golf architect. Those two good and kindly sportsmen, Charles B. MacDonald and H.J. Whigam, the men who conceived the idea of and designed the National Links at Southampton, both ex-amateur champions and the latter a Scot who had learned his golf at Prestwick—twice came to Haverford, first to go over the ground and later to consider and advise about our plans. They also had our committee as their guests at the National and their advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of Merion East were of the greatest help and value. Except for this, the entire responsibility for the design and construction of the two courses rests upon the special Construction Committee, composed of R.S. Francis, R.E. Griscom, H.G. Lloyd. Dr. Harry Toulmin, and the late Hugh I. Wilson, Chairman.

   The land for the East Course was found in 1910 and as a first step, Mr. Wilson was sent abroad to study the famous links in Scotland and England. On his return the plan was gradually evolved and while largely helped by many excellent suggestions and much good advice from the other members of the Committee, they have each told me that he is the person in the main responsible for the architecture of this and the West Course. Work was started in 1911 and the East Course was open for play on September 14th, 1912. The course at once proved so popular and membership and play increased so rapidly that it was decided to secure more land and build the West Course which was done the following year.

   These two committees had either marked ability and vision or else great good luck---probably both—for as the years go by and the acid test of play has been applied, it becomes quite clear that they did a particularly fine piece of work. The New Golf Grounds Committee selected two pieces of land with wonderful golfing possibilities which were bought at what now seems a ridiculously low price (about $700. an acre). The Construction Committee laid out and built two courses both good yet totally dissimilar—36 holes, no one of which is at all suggestive of any other. They imported bent seed directly from Germany when bent turf was a rarity and gave us not only bent greens and fairways and even bent in the rough and this seed only cost them 24 cents a pound, while it sells now for $2.25. They put in water systems for the greens and tees before artificial watering became a routine. They took charge of and supervised all the construction work as a result the two courses were built at the combined total cost of less than $75,000---something under $45,000 for the East and about $30,000 for the West, whereas it is not unusual nowadays for clubs to spend $150,000 or more in the building of one course of 18 holes.

   The most difficult problem for the Construction Committee however, was to try to build a golf course which would be fun for the ordinary golfer to play and at the same time make it really exacting test of golf for the best players. Anyone can build a hard course---all you need is length and severe bunkering—but it may be and often is dull as ditch water for the good player and poison for the poor. Unfortunately, many such courses exist. It is also easy to build a course which will amuse the average player but which affords poor sport for players of ability. The course which offers optional methods of play, which constantly tempts you to take a present risk in hope of securing a future advantage, which encourages fine play and the use of brains as well as brawn and which is a real test for the best and yet is pleasant and interesting for all, is the “Rara avis”, and this most difficult of golfing combinations they succeeded in obtaining, particularly the East course, to a very marked degree. Its continued popularity with the rank and file golfers proves that it is fun for them to play, while the results of three National, numbers of state and lesser championships, Lesley Cup matches, and other competitions, show that as a test of golf it cannot be trifled with by even the world’s best players. It is difficult to say just why this should be so for on analysis the course is not found to be over long, it is not heavily bunkered, it is not tricky, and blind holes are fortunately absent. I think the secret is that it is eternally sound; it is not bunkered to catch weak shots but to encourage fine ones, yet if a man indulges in bad play he is quite sure to find himself paying the penalty.

   We should also be grateful to this committee because they did not as is so often the case deface the landscape. They wisely utilized the natural hazards wherever possible, markedly on the third hole, which Mr. Alison (see below as to identity—W.R.P.) thought the best green he had seen in America, the fourth, fifth, the seventh, the ninth, the eleventh, the sixteenth, the seventeenth, and the eighteenth. We know the bunkering is all artificial but most of it fits into the surrounding landscape so well and has so natural a look that it seems as if many of the bunkers might have been formed by erosion, either wind or water and this of course is the artistic result which should be gotten.

   The greatest thing this committee did, however, was to give the East course that indescribable something quite impossible to put a finger on,---the thing called “Charm” which is just as important in a golf course as in a person and quite as elusive, yet the potency of which we all recognize. How they secured it we do not know; perhaps they do not.

………..The West course was designed particularly for the benefit of “the ninety and nine” and for low cost of maintenance, in both of which respects it was most successful. Very little bunkering was done but the ground was rich in natural contours and hazards and they were utilized in an extremely clever way. While not as severe as the East, it is a real test for even the best of players as was shown in the qualifying round of the National championship in 1916.

It is so lovely to look at that it is a pleasure to play and I like to remember the comment of Mr. C.H. Alison of the celebrated firm of Colt, Mackenzie and Alison—British Golf Architects---who, after going over both courses said: “Of course, I know the East is your championship course; yet while it may be heresy for me to say so, I like this one even better because it is so beautiful, so natural and has such great possibilities. I think it could be made the better of the two.”

   Having spent so many years playing bad golf over good courses I have come to believe that we members of Merion have for all season use about the most attractive golf layouts I have seen; two courses quite dissimilar in character and in play, in soil and scenery, both calling for brains and well as skill, very accessible, lovely to look at, pleasant to play, yet real tests of golf, with excellent bent fairways and fine greens. The East course recognized as one of the half dozen regular choices for National championship play, and the West capable of being made just as exciting a test should that ever been deemed desirable. We certainly owe a debt of gratitude to those two committees which by their hard work, foresight, good judgment and real knowledge of the true spirit and meaning of the game of golf evolved and built so well for Merion.   

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,


Is it your position that Alan and Hugh Wilson never discussed Merion in the pre and post design phase and pre and post construction phase ?

[DMoriarty]

Mike,


As for your post No. 199, is this some sort of filibuster or something?  My questions had nothing to do with the Francis land swap. Are you going to answer my questions, or not?


As for your post No. 200, if you are going to start throwing around terms like "hearsay" and start telling us that Alan Wilson didn't know what he was talking about, well then I guess we can all just forget about you answering thoughtfully and reasonably. 


Again, Mike, are you going to answer my questions?  Or are you going to continue on with this song and dance?

[DMoriarty]

Mike, It doesn't seem like you are interested in forthrightly answering my questions. Nonetheless, I said I'd address your latest forays into the Francis land swap, and given that you seem be be tying yourself into increasingly convoluted knots (albeit with more and more self-assuredness each time), I might as well cut you free from this nonsense.

As usual, you have started with your desired conclusion then have tried to twist and bend the facts beyond recognition to fit that conclusion. Thus, while Francis described a "swap" of land for land, you have now completely convinced yourself it was actually a purchase which must have come about shortly before the board meeting. I'm not going to bother with every twist and distortion of the record, but I will highlight a few that ought to be sufficient to demonstrate that your theory (which you laughably call nothing but a recitation of facts) is flawed from beginning to end.  We've covered all this before, you have just conveniently forgotten it all. 

(Perhaps before I start you could pause for a minute and reflect upon how absolutely certain you are that you have it all figured out. Then, when it all unwinds, please go back and try and understand why it is that you keep doing this to yourself and the rest of us.  What good are mistakes if we do the same thing over and over again?)

1. There was no purchase by Merion of "about three acres additional" for $7500 dollars from HDC.   As Merion repeatedly indicated in summer and fall of 1910, Merion had negotiated a purchase price of $85,000 for the golf course parcel from Haverford Development Company.  In July of 1911, when Merion finally purchased the parcel, the deed made no mention of 120 acres or 117 acres, or any total acreage. It simply provided the metes and bounds. [EDIT: Checked old posts and according to Bryan, the deed did list the acreage as 120.01 acres.]  Merion paid Haverford Development company $85,000.00, as originally negotiated. Not $92,500, as you conjecture.  This suggests they purchased the land they intended from the beginning, no more and no less, and for the price  they had negotiated a year earlier, and no more or no less.   As for the 117 acre figure, perhaps they mis-measured or mis-estimated back in the summer of 1910, and never got around to correcting the amount.  Regardless, they bought the land they intended to buy from the beginning, and for the price they intended to pay.

2.  The "about three acres additional" mentioned in the Thompson Resolution most likely referred to the approximately three acres of land next to the clubhouse, originally the site of the parts of the 12th and the 13th holes. Remember, back in June of 1910, Macdonald and Whigham had informed Merion that they needed to acquire additional land by the clubhouse if they wanted to be able to fit 18 first class holes?  Well, as of April 1911, Merion had still not acquired this land, thus the resolution mentioned the need to acquire the land.  But rather than purchasing the land for $7500.00 (an exorbitant price compared to the land sold to Merion by the Haverford Development Company), in July of 1911, Merion cut a sweatheart deal with the Railroad to lease the land for a nominal amount rather than purchasing it.   It wasn't until decades later that they actually purchased the land.

3.  Also, the "three acres additional" could not have been part of the Francis swap because the price is wrong.  Haverford Development Company had agreed to sell Merion land for its golf course for approximately $726 per acre, and at the time of the resolution, H.G. Lloyd of Merion held all of the land in question on behalf of Haverford Development Company.   But the asking price of the "about three acres additional" was  about $2500 per acre, not about $726 per acre.  Either H.G. Lloyd and Haverford Development Company were trying gouge Merion contrary to their original deal, or it wasn't the land in question wasn't held by Lloyd (for HDC) but rather was owned by someone else.  The Railroad. 

4.  The mid-November land plan shows that the land identified by Francis as subject to the swap was already part of the golf course parcel as of that date, thus the swap must have already been in place prior to that date.  (You can quibble that the land shown on the map is only 110 yards rather than the full 130 yards, but that isn't even worth addressing again.)

[JESII]

I've always been amused/confused/bemused, Mike (and Tom), by your absolute dismissal of what Richard Francis wrote in this instance while relying on his words as gospel in other areas.


The land swap was not a re-configuring of the road to reach that 130X190 dimensions...the road was not there to begin with. The Francis Swap established the triangle just as he said it did.


Would you agree that every person on the Wilson Committee was added to it?


This is a key question because you've taken his words to mean he was added LATER when he never said that. He simply said ADDED for his engineering expertise. Would they not have known he was an engineer at the outset? Do you think they put up a Help Wanted advertisement on the locker room bulletin board?


The other timing disagreement, which ties into this one, is whether or not anyone from Merion would be out plotting or planning golf holes in the late summer or fall of 1910 before the map was created and before the technical formation of the Wilson Committee. We know they were discussing golf holes with CBM and HJW in June 1910...

[MCirba]

 David,
 
Let’s stick to facts here.   Your speculation about them mis-measuring is really not supported by any of the known facts, is it?
 
A November 10, 1910 letter from E.W. Nicholson, on behalf of the Haverford
Development Company was in reply to meetings with Lloyd representing the Merion
Cricket Club.
 
Board of Governors
Merion Cricket Club,
Haverford, Pa.

Gentlemen:
In accordance with the terms of a letter from Mr. H.G. Lloyd to Mr. J.R. Connell
supplemented by several conferences with Mr. Lloyd acting on behalf of the Merion
Cricket Club, would say,
That this Company has in its possession either the title to or options in writing
(assigned in blank) for the purchase of the following tracts of ground on College and
Ardmore Avenues, Haverford, Pa.,

63.6 acres Haverford Development Co. property,
140 acres Phila. And Ardmore Land Co. ―
21 acres Dallas Estate property
56 acres Taylor property
58 acres Davis property
_________
338.6

Out of the said total of 338 acres a tract of 117 acres as agreed upon with Mr. Lloyd,
we agree to sell to a corporation to be formed on behalf of the Merion Cricket Club for
the purpose of establishing Golf Links thereon within reasonable time, clear of
encumbrance, for the price or sum of Eighty-five thousand dollars payable in cash on
or about December 10th, 1910.

Kindly forward us your written acceptance of this proposition,

Very truly yours,
(signed) E.W. Nicholson
Secretary

Allen Evans, then President of Merion Cricket Club replied in a November 15, 1910
letter,
 
E.W. Nicholson, Esq.,
Secretary of the Haverford Development Co.,802 Land Title Bldg., Philada

Dear Sir:
Your letter of November tenth, advising of the purchase of certain tracts of ground on
College and Ardmore Avenues, Haverford, by the Haverford Development Company,
has been received. I note that you agree to sell a tract of one hundred and seventeen
(117) acres, as agreed upon with Mr. Lloyd, to a corporation to be formed on behalf of
the Merion Cricket Club, for the purpose of establishing Golf Links thereon within
reasonable time, clear of encumbrance, for the price or sum of Eighty-five thousand
dollars, ($85,000.00), payable in cash on or about December 10th, 1910.

In accordance with instructions given me by the Board of Government of the Merion
Cricket Club, I beg to state that a Corporation will be formed on behalf of the Club,
which will purchase the tract of land above mentioned one hundred and seventeen
(117) acres, at the price or sum of Eighty-five thousand dollars ($85,000.00), in
accordance with the terms of your proposition, as quoted above, and that as soon as
this Corporation obtains possession of the property, we will at once proceed to lay off,
and put in shape a Golf Links.

Very truly yours,
(signed) Allen Evans,
President Merion C.C.
 
As a result of this agreement, Evans sent the following to Merion membership on November 15^th, 1910.   You’ll note that the drawing is to scale;
 

[MCirba]

My apologies but it appears due to size limitations I'll have to enter this in multiple posts.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

I disagree with parts of your post as well as David's post 178, where he states, "Here you mistake the absence of evidence for evidence of absence" and "CBM had already been over the land, and we know that, at the very least, he had already been considering how to make use Merion's natural features."

As to the first point, while I understand that if my post doesn't mention the Civil War, its not proof that it didn't happen. However, the standard for concluding such things did happen is more than one source saying it did. 

In the case of David claiming CBM was out there routing holes or considering holes in 1910 after the June meeting, he has already admitted that there is no evidence of that.  There is no way a meeting to ask his opinion if land is suitable, and a follow up letter saying yes, it is, and it has some nice features you can use, is proof that CBM studied how holes might be arranged there.  That is quite a stretch of the known record.

In fact, the biggest point of disagreement over these last 7 years is exactly that -  just how much CBM did work on the project and when, and David seems to be trying to slip his opinion in as an agreed to fact, which is not the case for me, and I believe probably not others, so that is worth clearing up for anyone still following.  And, you are making the same assumption, that picking property somehow equates to designing golf holes.  First things first, and he was there to advise on whether the property was suitable. He would not have done any design until there was a property to design on, even if he was going to design it, which he doesn't seem to have done, at least from the written record, sans any "logical" interpretation, seemingly based on "just because they didn't say it, and its not in any record, doesn't mean it didn't happen." 

Frankly, with the money TePaul has, and the passion he has for the subject, I am surprised he hasn't commissioned a committee of historians to "rule" on how valid David's theories are, instead of continued sniping in emails. His opinion, my opinion, David's opinion, etc. are all still rank amateurs in any kind of historic debate.

Now, I will agree that they probably did discuss the many plans Merion had brought over to NGLA in March 1911, as David opines, and am not sure why Mike won't agree to that simple fact.  They brought those plans over for a reason, even if they basically wanted to route and design it themselves.  However, I doubt that changes history all that much, and we all want to know just how involved CBM was. 

The written record tells us just how many times he chimed in (3, from many sources) but we don't know how influential he was, exactly.  To me, the question is who put pencil to paper to actually route the course and select the holes.  It seems it was Merion, and Merion alone doing the routing, and CBM providing one day of review and selection assistance.

As to hole selection, at that March meeting, they really could have just seen what CBM did, and come away from it knowing they wanted  a Redan, Eden, Road, etc. We know CBM couldn't have actually selected the holes for them then, because they went back and did five more plans.  Whatever he may have selected would have most likely changed too much to use.

We know he approved the routing in April 1911 (to me, meaning he gave an opinion as to which was the best one) and MAY have suggested locations for the various holes then, but we just don't know, probably never will.

As to the land swap, my reading of all is more in line with Mike's, but I don't care to discuss it all again.  The numbers do seem to add up.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The other points I have brought up over the years, but which seem to be ignored by most here are the facts from Bahto, that in June 1910, CBM was also pretty busy with:

The July 24 opening of NGLA
The new design contract for Piping Rock, signed at that time.
The new design contract for Sleepy Hollow signed at that time.
Whatever time he had left to devote to his full time job.

And, why, if he was wanting to be so involved, would Raynor not be in on the Merion job?

I have to believe CBM's entire mind set was on his "real" projects, as we know from Scotland's Gift that he was overwhelmed with requests and trying to get out of the free advice mode.  It would seem Merion was his last one, although I am not totally sure.

Lastly, as to that meeting in March, it seems they got there in the late afternoon, (probably after a long day travel) had dinner and drinks and went over CBM's plans from famous holes in Scotland.  The second day, they saw those holes on the ground.  That is what they wrote, so why not believe that is what they did?  IMHO, they probably left just after lunch the next day to get home by some reasonable hour.

Even if CBM looked at those many plans, which he probably did, there wasn't enough time in a 1.5 day meeting to go over any routings in detail.   Certainly not enough time to put pencil to paper, even if we assume that CBM would be inclined to do so, which I am not even sure he was inclined to do from other reports.  In most cases, Raynor got some instructions from CBM and drew the plans.  Why would we expect CBM to do it here for Merion?  No one says Raynor was at that meeting, and I don't think HJW was much of a draftsman either.

So, I am reasonably sure that CBM commented on the initial plans, and that, in combination with what they saw with their own eyes, convinced them that they needed to redo them all.  Which, they recorded as helpful advice from CBM, which I am sure it was.

[MCirba]

Continued...





 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Third attachment doesn't show up for me.

[JESII]

Jeff,


On the topic of whether or not CBM was discussing possible holes/hole locations on the land proposed in June 1910; with several hundred acres of land surrounding that plot, why would he single out the small sliver behind the clubhouse if not to put a hole there?


Your reliance on evidence for proof is tough in this scenario because, unless I'm mistaken, Hugh Wilson wasn't mentioned until the course routing was complete...

[MCirba]

continued...

 That same date a letter offering stock options to members from H.G. Lloyd;
 
Philadelphia, November 15th, 1910

To the Members of the Merion Cricket Club:

The members of the Club who subscribed to stock of the Haverford Development
Company, in order to consummate the purchase referred to in the accompanying
circular letter of the President of the Club, did so with the understanding that all other
members should have the right to become subscribers on precisely the same terms and
conditions as themselves. The reason for this was that they were unwilling to put
themselves in the position of having received what may prove to be a privilege not
enjoyed by every other member.

The authorized capital stock of the Company will be $300,000. Of this amount
approximately one-half has been taken by others than members, so that about
$150,000 of the stock will be open to subscription by members of the Club. A
considerable amount has already been subscribed, but no preference will be given to
these advance subscriptions, as in the event of an over-subscription, there will be an
allotment pro rata among all subscribers. Any member desiring to subscribe to the
stock will please communicate with the undersigned not later than December 1, 1910.
The Company is unwilling to receive subscriptions of less than $1,000.

There will be acquired by the Company, five tracts of land, aggregating approximately
338 acres, so that after the sale of 117 acres for the Golf course, there will remain
about 221 acres, some of which has been improved. The average cost of the remaining
land will be less than $2,500 per acre. Of this amount, about $1,000 per acre will be
paid in cash and the balance remain on mortgage. It is estimated that the $300,000
Capital will provide ample funds for such development work as may be necessary,
including road building, etc.
Horatio G. Lloyd,
Chestnut and Fifth Sts.

 
On December 21^st, 1910, Merion’s counsel T. DeWitt Cuyler sent the following letter to Merion President Allen Evans;
 
Philadelphia, December 21, 1910.

Mr. Allen Evans,
President, Merion Cricket Club,
Haverford, Pa

My dear Sir:
Re Merion Cricket Club Golf Association,
Inaccordance with Mr. Lloyd‘s request, I enclose herewith letterfrom the Haverford Development Company of November 10th and copy of your reply thereto showing the terms of the agreement to purchase the land for the golf grounds. I also enclose copy of my letter to you of November 23rd. As I have duplicates of these three papers, I would thank you to return them or copies of them to me.

I would report that proceedings for the incorporation of the Merion Cricket Club Golf
Association are underway with a slight modification of the details of my letter of
November 23rd.

In regard to the title of the property the boundaries of the land to be acquired being as
yet uncertain owing to the fact that the golf course has not been definitely located, it
was found advisable that the Haverford Development Company should take the title in
Mr. Lloyd‘s name, so that the lines could be revised subsequently. I would thank you
to let me know as soon as the boundaries have been determined upon.

I understand that as no cash will be needed for some months, the issuance of the
second mortgage bonds can be postponed until after the boundaries of the property
have been determined upon.
 
I should be much obliged if you would at your convenience let me have a copy of the
lease of the Cricket Grounds from the Haverford Land and Improvement Company in
order that the lease of the golf grounds may conform therewith.

Yours very truly,
(Signed) Thomas DeWitt Cuyler


 

[MCirba]

continued...final.

 Careful readers will note that Mr. Cuyler states that it ”was found advisable that the Haverford Development Company should take the title in Mr. Lloyd’s name, so that the lines can be revised subsequently” as the boundaries (along the western edge north of Ardmore Avenue) had not yet been determined.
 
In fact, by the time of that letter, Mr. Lloyd had already taken title of the entire 161 acres of the Johnson Farm and Dallas Estate properties and had done so on December 10^th, 1910.   Thus, any further dealings for the negotiation of that land could be, and in fact needed to be done through Mr. Lloyd, who represented both sides of the transaction.   You’ll recall that Richard Francis rode to Lloyd’s house on his midnight ride and it was appropriate to do so as Lloyd held the title to the property and would need to approve any land exchanges, particularly any exchanges that required additional property for golf.
 
On February 1^st, 1911, Hugh Wilson wrote his first letter to Piper & Oakley and his first sentence indicates how much land Merion had acquired;
 
 

 
 
Under normal circumstances, the decision on which of the golf course routing plans to approve would have been handled as a routine matter by the club’s Golf Committee.   However, the ONLY reason that this transaction needed Board of Governors approval was because of the requirement to purchase 3 acres additional from what had been approved the previous November.
 
At the April 19, 1911 Board Meeting, the following was entered into the Minutes;
 
Golf Committee through Mr. Lesley, report as follows on the new Golf Grounds:
Your committee desires to report that after laying out many different courses on the
new land, they went down to the National Course with Mr. Macdonald and spent the
evening looking over his plans and the various data he had gathered abroad in regard
to golf courses. The next day was spent on the ground studying the various holes,
which were copied after the famous ones abroad.

On our return, we re-arranged the course and laid out five different plans. On April
6th Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Whigham came over and spent the day on the ground, and
after looking over the various plans, and the ground itself, decided that if we would lay
it out according to the plan they approved, which is submitted here-with, that it would
result not only in a first class course, but that the last seven holes would be equal to
any inland course in the world. In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary to
acquire 3 acres additional.
 
In response, on motion of Mr. Thompson, the following was resolved;
 
Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing a proposed layout of the new
Golf Ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of land already purchased
for other land adjoining and the purchase of about three acres additional to cost about
$7500.00, and asked the approval of this Board, it was on motion
Resolved, that this Board approve of the purchase and exchange, and agree to pay as
part of the rental the interest on the additional purchase.
 
At the end of the day, you’re correct that Lloyd and HDC never charged Merion for the additional 3 acres, and stuck to the original purchase price of $85,000 for what was eventually the 120.01 acres that HDC  (through Lloyd) sold to Merion, as indicated on the metes and bounds of that transaction.
 
 

[MCirba]

I've always been amused/confused/bemused, Mike (and Tom), by your absolute dismissal of what Richard Francis wrote in this instance while relying on his words as gospel in other areas.

Jim, I'm actually taking Francis precisely at his word.  Whatever the dimensions of that area had been prior to his brainstorm, whether 0x0 or the 95x260 as indicated by the November 1910 Pugh & Hubbard drawing showing the "117 acres, shown on the plan in green, and marked "Golf Course", the fact remains that after Francis' brainstorm the area in question became 130x190 as it roughly remains today.   

If you recall, Francis also told us that once Mr. Lloyd approved of his idea, within a day or two the men were out there blasting away with explosives on the site of today's 16th green.   Does that sound like something that happened prior to November 1910 based on the rest of the evidence?

The land swap was not a re-configuring of the road to reach that 130X190 dimensions...the road was not there to begin with. The Francis Swap established the triangle just as he said it did.

The land swap was a re-configuring of the originally intended 117 acre boundaries however those acres were marked and measured on the ground prior to the construction of Golf House Road.    In fact, the Francis Swap was that reconfiguration as well as the addition of 3 more acres from HDC for a total of 120.01 acres.   The 3 acres of railroad land is a red herring introduced by others to confuse the issue.  And yes, Francis established those new dimensions as he said he did.


Would you agree that every person on the Wilson Committee was added to it?

Yes, likely in conjunction with the creation of the Committee on January 11, 1911.


This is a key question because you've taken his words to mean he was added LATER when he never said that. He simply said ADDED for his engineering expertise. Would they not have known he was an engineer at the outset? Do you think they put up a Help Wanted advertisement on the locker room bulletin board?


The other timing disagreement, which ties into this one, is whether or not anyone from Merion would be out plotting or planning golf holes in the late summer or fall of 1910 before the map was created and before the technical formation of the Wilson Committee. We know they were discussing golf holes with CBM and HJW in June 1910...

CBM's plan for a theoretical course of 6,000 yards was not discussing any particular golf holes at Merion but instead a mix of yardages and pars to provide variety.   As regards the property, his mention that the quarry and creek could be "made much of" is architecture abstracted to its highest 30,000 foot level.   Their mention of Merion obtaining additional "land near where you propose making your clubhouse" seems to be something fairly self-evident, wouldn't you agree?   Why wouldn't they want to control the land to the railroad tracks, utilizing the creek there, as well as providing access to both sides of the proposed clubhouse? 

[MCirba]

Regarding what took place during the visit of Hugh Wilson's Committee to National Golf Links of America, fortunately we have two accounts, the first in the MCC Minutes as read by Robert Lesley representing the Golf Committee and the second by Hugh Wilson himself a few years later writing for Piper & Oakley.

From the Minutes;

Your committee desires to report that after laying out many different courses on the
new land, they went down to the National Course with Mr. Macdonald and spent the
evening looking over his plans and the various data he had gathered abroad in regard
to golf courses. The next day was spent on the ground studying the various holes,
which were copied after the famous ones abroad.

From Hugh Wilson;

Our ideals were high and fortunately we did get a good start in the correct principles
of laying out the holes, through the kindness of Messrs. C.B. Macdonald and H.J.
Whigham. We spent two days with Mr. Macdonald at his bungalow near the National
Course and in one night absorbed more ideas in golf course construction than we had
learned in all the years we had played. Through sketches and explanations of the right
principles of the holes that formed the famous courses abroad and had stood the test of
time, we learned what was right and what we should try to accomplish with our natural
conditions. The next day, we spent going over the course and studying the different
holes. Every good course that I saw later in England and Scotland confirmed Mr.
MacDonald‘s teachings.

While I think it's reasonable conjecture to assume that Merion brought him a topo and some of their plans to review at that meeting, that's all it is and there really is no factual evidence to prove that was the case.

Once again, I think it's critically important to separate fact from conjecture here.

[DMoriarty]

Fascinating how Mike has time to regurgitate all of this stale garbage for the umpteenth time, yet he still can't seem to find time to answer my questions.

[Jeff_Brauer]

"While I think it's reasonable conjecture to assume that Merion brought him a topo and some of their plans to review at that meeting, that's all it is and there really is no factual evidence to prove that was the case."


Seems like all the answer Mike is going to give. And, probably all he needs to, given his opinion.

Are the minutes of the meetings really garbage?

[MCirba]

David,

My answers in blue below.  David, I trust you won't mind me erasing the insulting invective that proceeded your answer and we'll just stick to the facts here.   

1. There was no purchase by Merion of "about three acres additional" for $7500 dollars from HDC.   As Merion repeatedly indicated in summer and fall of 1910, Merion had negotiated a purchase price of $85,000 for the golf course parcel from Haverford Development Company.  In July of 1911, when Merion finally purchased the parcel, the deed made no mention of 120 acres or 117 acres, or any total acreage. It simply provided the metes and bounds. [EDIT: Checked old posts and according to Bryan, the deed did list the acreage as 120.01 acres.]  Merion paid Haverford Development company $85,000.00, as originally negotiated. Not $92,500, as you conjecture.  This suggests they purchased the land they intended from the beginning, no more and no less, and for the price  they had negotiated a year earlier, and no more or no less.   As for the 117 acre figure, perhaps they mis-measured or mis-estimated back in the summer of 1910, and never got around to correcting the amount.  Regardless, they bought the land they intended to buy from the beginning, and for the price they intended to pay.

As shown in your correction above, the deed does indeed show 120.01 acres purchased from Haverford Development Company.   As for why they ended up paying the same total amount ($85,000) for 120.01 acres than they did for the prior agreed upon 117 acres, you're a smart guy and you know with Mr. Lloyd representing both sides in this transaction he had the wherewithal to do what was deemed best for all concerned.   Your idea that they hired a surveyor who mis-measured or mis-estimated is rather weak, and again comes under the category of just making stuff up without evidence.   Isn't a more likely scenario that Macdonald told them they they generally needed 120 acres for a good golf course and clubhouse, just as he wrote previously to his Founders, and once they determined that they would rent the 3 acres of railroad land near the clubhouse just decided to purchase the difference (117) acres to get to the desired number?   Yes, that's conjecture, but it's conjecture grounded in what CBM had previously written and what he did in the future on projects like Lido that was built on 120 acres.

In fact, on July 1st, 1910, well before any routing was done, Robert Lesley wrote for the Merion Site Committee;

It is probable that nearly one hundred and twenty (120) acres would be required for
our purposes, and provided they can be obtained at not exceeding $90,000.00, we
believe it would be a wise purchase.

And we're supposed to believe that after routing the course they just magically came to the same number?   Talk about making stuff up! 

2.  The "about three acres additional" mentioned in the Thompson Resolution most likely referred to the approximately three acres of land next to the clubhouse, originally the site of the parts of the 12th and the 13th holes. Remember, back in June of 1910, Macdonald and Whigham had informed Merion that they needed to acquire additional land by the clubhouse if they wanted to be able to fit 18 first class holes?  Well, as of April 1911, Merion had still not acquired this land, thus the resolution mentioned the need to acquire the land.  But rather than purchasing the land for $7500.00 (an exorbitant price compared to the land sold to Merion by the Haverford Development Company), in July of 1911, Merion cut a sweatheart deal with the Railroad to lease the land for a nominal amount rather than purchasing it.   It wasn't until decades later that they actually purchased the land.

No, the 3 acres additional was land under control of HDC as evidenced in the July 1911 deed for 120.01 acres.  

3.  Also, the "three acres additional" could not have been part of the Francis swap because the price is wrong.  Haverford Development Company had agreed to sell Merion land for its golf course for approximately $726 per acre, and at the time of the resolution, H.G. Lloyd of Merion held all of the land in question on behalf of Haverford Development Company.   But the asking price of the "about three acres additional" was  about $2500 per acre, not about $726 per acre.  Either H.G. Lloyd and Haverford Development Company were trying gouge Merion contrary to their original deal, or it wasn't the land in question wasn't held by Lloyd (for HDC) but rather was owned by someone else.  The Railroad. 

The price was a worst-case scenario based on what HDC had purchased the land for, in effect, the retail price.   As mentioned, in the end due to the influence of HG Lloyd the transaction for 120 acres came in at the originally agreed price for 117 acres, or $85k

4.  The mid-November land plan shows that the land identified by Francis as subject to the swap was already part of the golf course parcel as of that date, thus the swap must have already been in place prior to that date.  (You can quibble that the land shown on the map is only 110 yards rather than the full 130 yards, but that isn't even worth addressing again.)


No, actually it doesn't.   The November 1910 Pugh & Hubbard land plan indicating 117 acres does not include a triangle of 130x190 yards but one vastly thinner and vastly longer.   It also shows land as part of the golf course that was in fact given back to HDC in the deal.   It was the redifinition of that border as well as the related need to buy 3 additonal acres sometime in the spring of 1911 that was the Francis land exchange.

[DMoriarty]

I see our posts crossed.  I'll pull mine so it doesn't get confusing.

The questions I was referring to were the ones you never answered from about a week ago.  The one's you repeatedly indicated you would answer, but haven't.

Also Mike, it would really help if you wouldn't make shit up about my position.

[MCirba]

It may be helpful to Jim Sullivan and others to read how land for the West Course was considered once the East Course quickly became over-crowded.   From "The Nature Faker", I've copied a portion of a November 12, 1912 letter that was read into the MCC Minutes from the Merion Golf Committee;

To the President and Board of Governors,
THE MERION CRICKET CLUB:

Your Committee appointed to consider the question of additional golf facilities and the
cost of maintenance thereof, including interest and sinking fund charges, begs to
report as follows:

We have gone very fully into the question of the possibility of acquiring land available
for the purpose in the vicinity of the present golf links, and find that there is plenty of
land to be had. It will, of course, be appreciated that it was inadvisable to conduct our
inquiries in such a way as to show that the Club was seeking additional property,
which would cause a raising of prices. Through discreet inquiries, however, we have
obtained approximate prices at which different tracts can be purchased, which are
sufficiently accurate to enable us to make a fair estimate of the cost of the acquisition.

Considering, first, the question of a nine-hole course: This, in our judgment, would
have to be located on the land of the Development Company, as owing to the shortness
of the course, it would be impossible to go any great distance with it. This would
require, say fifty acres, and the cost would be between $175,000 and $200,000, or an
average of somewhere between $3500 and $4000 per acre, including developing work.
The Development Company has not been asked to quote a price on its land, but we
have reason to believe the figures named are approximately correct. It is possible that
land could be leased from the Company, with an option to purchase, for a period of say
five years. While such an arrangement, if it could be consummated, would obviate the
necessity of any present capital outlay, except the amount required for development
work, it would not reduce the annual charge, as the amount to be paid by way of rental
would probably be about the same as interest on the value of the land.

Considering, now, the question of an eighteen-hole course: We have not formulated
any definitive plan as to how, or just where it could be located. It would require, say,
one hundred acres, which we believe could be acquired and developed at an average
price of from $1750 to $2000 per acre. In order to start the play near the Club House,
it would necessitate the acquisition of some near-by land , but most of the holes could
be laid out on more remote land, which would reduce the average price of the whole, to
something less than $2000 per acre, as stated above. It has been suggested that the
new course be laid out entirely on land at some distance from the Club House, and that
a motor bus or other conveyance be provided to transport the players to and from the
course. While this would naturally reduce the immediate outlay for cash, your
Committee feels that the players would not use a course which did not start near the
house, and the desired result would not, therefore, be accomplished.

It would appear to your Committee that in case it is decided to provide additional
facilities the eighteen-hole course should be decided upon, for several reasons, among
them, being, first, that it would be a serious question whether a nine-hole course would
relieve the congestion sufficiently; and second, in the purchase of the larger acreage,
at a lower average price, it seems as though the Club would, in case at any time in the
future interest in golf should fall off, and it should be desirable to dispose of the land,
be able to secure a price that would at least bring it out whole. It must be remembered
that the land we purchased originally for the present links was secured at a very low
price. The total cost of the 120 acres, including the club house and improvements, of
$180,000, making the average cost per acre $1500.

If the Club should decide to go ahead on the basis of a new 18-hole links, at a cost of
$200,000, it would make the total investment in land, buildings, and improvements
$380,000, or an average cost of $1722 per acre, which, considering the price at which
surrounding land is held, would indicate that the Club would be amply secured against
loss on its investment...

[MCirba]

1. Is it reasonable for you to continue to assert that Wilson traveled to NGLA and spent two days with CBM shortly before he was to begin building the course, yet they did not even bother discuss the the prospective layout?

2. Doesn't this position directly contradict Alan Wilson's statement, and common sense?

3. If CBM and HJW were not directly involved in the design process (at least with regard to the routing and hole concepts), then why would Merion trouble him to travel back to Philadelphia to again go over there land, consider the various plans, and approve a final layout plan?

David,

As mentioned, I was hoping that you and I could come to agreement that the facts indicate that the Richard Francis Land Exchange  took place sometime after the Wilson Committee was formed in January 1911 and almost certainly after the Committee visited NGLA in March of 1911.   I was also hoping we could come to agreement that that exchange wasn't an equal acre-for-acre swap, but instead required Merion to purchase an additional 3 acres as the April 19, 1911 MCC Minutes indicate.

I believe agreement in those areas will benefit future discussion and I'm still hopeful that we'll come to that shared understanding.

Nevertheless, in the interim, please allow me to answer your questions.

1) I think it's reasonable conjecture to imagine that during the Wilson Committee's overnight visit to NGLA in March 1911 (while they were knee-deep in their various course design plans) that they brought a topo map and perhaps some of those plans they had developed by that time.   However, the two written accounts we have of that meeting don't indicate that happened.   In fact, they seem to indicate that much of the time was spent on going over the principles of the great holes abroad followed by a next day tour of the golf course.

As I've indicated before, I think this provided much more value and had a huge impression on the Committee.   For instance, here these guys were trying to squeeze their golf course into 117 purchased (and 3 rented) acres with a large quarry on the north end and then they see this vast undertaking CBM had accomplished across 200 acres, using about 160 acres for a golf course with huge fairway widths providing alternate routes around hazards, and they had to think to themselves, wow...back to the drawing board!   

Yes, that's also conjecture, but it's based on what they saw on the ground at NGLA, which was massive in scale.

2) As mentioned, I don't believe Alan Wilson was at NGLA and I think his statement that CBM and Whigham's advice as to the layout of the East Course being exceptionally helpful was a statement made in totality of the three meetings, as well as agronomic advice, advice about the principles of the great holes, etc., as well as helping them pick the best of their five plans.   Conversely, there is no evidence of CBM and Whigham actually creating any routing plan for Merion, is there?

3) Why wouldn't they have wanted their advice is the better question.   Griscom and Macdonald were friends and Griscom had him out once prior when they were considering the land.   To get his learned advice regarding which of their plans was superior would not only have directly benefited the final result, but also would go a long way to getting approval of the Board of Governors for a plan that required them to purchase 3 additional acres.

Let's not forget that at the time, golf at Merion Cricket Club was still a relative upstart, with many other sports much more well-established.   The large capital outlay required of the membership to buy land for their own golf course was relatively revolutionary at the time as most clubs in the region were playing on leased land that was increasing in value.   This was hardly a slam-dunk approval in the way we might think of it today.

I hope this helps.

[DMoriarty]

As for why they ended up paying the same total amount ($85,000) for 120.01 acres then they did for the prior agreed upon 117 acres, you're a smart guy and you know with Mr. Lloyd representing both sides in this transaction he had the wherewithal to do what was deemed best for all concerned.

I have no idea what you think this means.  You think that Lloyd just decided give Merion three additional acres of HDC's land?  Ridiculous. A more reasonable interpretation is that Merion purchased the land they always intended for the price the always intended.

The Resolution contemplates a purchase of three acres additional for $7500.  If Lloyd was just going to give them the land, then this make NO sense. It also makes no sense for the price to have been $2500 per acre, which is 3 times what was contemplated. What does make sense, is that this wasn't the HDC land. It was the RR land.  That was the 3 acres additional they needed, and the only three acres of land which was still in play at the point.

Your idea that they hired a surveyor who mis-measured or mis-estimated is rather weak, and again comes under the category of just making stuff up without evidence.

You are the one who is making shit up, Mike.   Where did I say they hired a surveyor?  I don't know where they came up with the 117 acre figure AND NEITHER DO YOU.  I don't know what, if anything had actually been measured AND NEITHER DO YOU.  I don't know why the difference between the preliminary figure AND NEITHER DO YOU.  The difference between us is I don't pretend to know, while you do. There are plausible explanations for the discrepancy, but none of the involve the purchase of three additional acres for $7500.

Isn't a more likely scenario that Macdonald told them they they generally needed 120 acres for a good golf course and clubhouse, just as he wrote previously to his Founders, and once they determined that they would rent the 3 acres of railroad land near the clubhouse just decided to purchase the difference (117) acres to get to the desired number?

Jeez, Mike, you twist everything.   This makes no sense whatsoever.  CBM's letter doesn't mention 120 acres. To the contrary, CBM told them that without a contour map he couldn't be certain if they had enough land to fit 18 first class holes, but he thought that they could provided that they add the land by the clubhouse.  That you could read this as him generally telling them that they needed 120 acres?  Well this speaks volumes about your willingness to look honestly at the source material. 

In fact, on July 1st, 1910, well before any routing was done, Robert Lesley wrote for the Merion Site Committee;

It is probable that nearly one hundred and twenty (120) acres would be required for
our purposes, and provided they can be obtained at not exceeding $90,000.00, we
believe it would be a wise purchase.

And we're supposed to believe that after routing the course they just magically came to the same number?   Talk about making stuff up! 

What the hell are you talking about?  Lesley most likely came up with the 120 acre figure by adding the 3 acres CBM told them to add to the plot they were considering, which they said was 117 acres. 

No, the 3 acres additional was land under control of HDC as evidenced in the July 1911 deed for 120.01 acres.

  Really?  Then what about the $7500?  And why were HDC and H.G. Lloyd planning to charge Merion 3X what they had agreed?  Face it Mike.  This was NOT the three acres mentioned in the Resolution.  That was the RR land.   

The price was a worst-case scenario based on what HDC had purchased the land for, in effect, the retail price.   As mentioned, in the end due to the influence of HG Lloyd the transaction for 120 acres came in at the originally agreed price for 117 acres, or $85k

This is sad. You are just making shit up, Mike.

The November 1910 Pugh & Hubbard land plan indicating 117 acres does not include a triangle of 130x190 yards but one vastly thinner and vastly longer.   It also shows land as part of the golf course that was in fact given back to HDC in the deal.   It was the redifinition of that border as well as the related need to buy 3 additonal acres sometime in the spring of 1911 that was the Francis land exchange.

Not according to Francis.

[DMoriarty]

As for why they ended up paying the same total amount ($85,000) for 120.01 acres then they did for the prior agreed upon 117 acres, you're a smart guy and you know with Mr. Lloyd representing both sides in this transaction he had the wherewithal to do what was deemed best for all concerned.

I have no idea what you think this means.  You think that Lloyd just decided give Merion three additional acres of HDC's land?  Ridiculous. A more reasonable interpretation is that Merion purchased the land they always intended for the price the always intended.

The Resolution contemplates a purchase of three acres additional for $7500.  If Lloyd was just going to give them the land, then this make NO sense. It also makes no sense for the price to have been $2500 per acre, which is 3 times what was contemplated. What does make sense, is that this wasn't the HDC land. It was the RR land.  That was the 3 acres additional they needed, and the only three acres of land which was still in play at the point.

Your idea that they hired a surveyor who mis-measured or mis-estimated is rather weak, and again comes under the category of just making stuff up without evidence.

You are the one who is making shit up, Mike.   Where did I say they hired a surveyor?  I don't know where they came up with the 117 acre figure AND NEITHER DO YOU.  I don't know what, if anything had actually been measured AND NEITHER DO YOU.  I don't know why the difference between the preliminary figure AND NEITHER DO YOU.  The difference between us is I don't pretend to know, while you do.    There are lots of plausible explanations for the discrepancy, but none of the involve the purchase of three additional acres for $7500.

Isn't a more likely scenario that Macdonald told them they they generally needed 120 acres for a good golf course and clubhouse, just as he wrote previously to his Founders, and once they determined that they would rent the 3 acres of railroad land near the clubhouse just decided to purchase the difference (117) acres to get to the desired number?

   
Jeez, Mike, you twist everything.   This makes no sense whatsoever.  CBM's letter doesn't mention 120 acres.  To the contrary, CBM told them that without a contour map he couldn't be certain if they had enough land to fit 18 first class holes, but he thought that they could provided that they add the land by the clubhouse.  That you could read this as him generally telling them that they needed 120 acres?  Well this speaks volumes about your willingness to look honestly at the source material. 

In fact, on July 1st, 1910, well before any routing was done, Robert Lesley wrote for the Merion Site Committee;

It is probable that nearly one hundred and twenty (120) acres would be required for
our purposes, and provided they can be obtained at not exceeding $90,000.00, we
believe it would be a wise purchase.
What the hell are you talking about?  Lesley most likely came up with the 120 acre figure by adding the 3 acres CBM told them to add to the plot they were considering, which they said was 117 acres.

And we're supposed to believe that after routing the course they just magically came to the same number?   Talk about making stuff up! 

What are you talking about?   The original golf course was 123 acres, not 120.  It was the land purchased from HDC plus the 3 acres of land suggested by CBM.

No, the 3 acres additional was land under control of HDC as evidenced in the July 1911 deed for 120.01 acres.

  Really?  Then what about the $7500?  And why were HDC and H.G. Lloyd planning to charge Merion 3X what they had agreed?  Face it Mike.  This was NOT the three acres mentioned in the Resolution.  That was the RR land.   

The price was a worst-case scenario based on what HDC had purchased the land for, in effect, the retail price.   As mentioned, in the end due to the influence of HG Lloyd the transaction for 120 acres came in at the originally agreed price for 117 acres, or $85k

This is sad. You are just making shit up, Mike.

The November 1910 Pugh & Hubbard land plan indicating 117 acres does not include a triangle of 130x190 yards but one vastly thinner and vastly longer.   It also shows land as part of the golf course that was in fact given back to HDC in the deal.   It was the redifinition of that border as well as the related need to buy 3 additonal acres sometime in the spring of 1911 that was the Francis land exchange.

Not according to Francis.

[MCirba]

The other points I have brought up over the years, but which seem to be ignored by most here are the facts from Bahto, that in June 1910, CBM was also pretty busy with:

The July 24 opening of NGLA
The new design contract for Piping Rock, signed at that time.
The new design contract for Sleepy Hollow signed at that time.
Whatever time he had left to devote to his full time job.

And, why, if he was wanting to be so involved, would Raynor not be in on the Merion job?

Even if CBM looked at those many plans, which he probably did, there wasn't enough time in a 1.5 day meeting to go over any routings in detail.   Certainly not enough time to put pencil to paper, even if we assume that CBM would be inclined to do so, which I am not even sure he was inclined to do from other reports.  In most cases, Raynor got some instructions from CBM and drew the plans.  Why would we expect CBM to do it here for Merion?  No one says Raynor was at that meeting, and I don't think HJW was much of a draftsman either.

So, I am reasonably sure that CBM commented on the initial plans, and that, in combination with what they saw with their own eyes, convinced them that they needed to redo them all.  Which, they recorded as helpful advice from CBM, which I am sure it was.

Jeff,

I think your point about Seth Raynor being missing is a great point that has been largely unexamined here.   

In every single one of Macdonald's project where he had direct, detailed involvement he used Seth Raynor.

It didn't matter if the course was on Long Island, or West Virginia, or St. Louis, Raynor was his guy, often doing all of the travelling.   For instance, there is no record of Macdonald actually visiting Greenbrier.   

That he was never sent to Merion speaks volumes about CBM's involvement, IMO.

David,

Pugh and Hubbard drew a scale map dated November 15, 1910 that purports to show the 117 acres Merion secured at that time in green, and marked "Golf Course".     That's the surveyor I was referring to.