Saratoga National vs. Taconic

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Looking for some advice on this one

I have a golf trip planned next weekend to The Sagamore (Fri-Sun). I always try and get a round in at a different course and I am debating whether or not it makes more sense to make the 1 hr 45 min drive to Taconic (a course which I have been dying to play) or to play at Saratoga National (30 min. drive).

I have heard that Taconic is well worth the effort, but Saratoga is much easier logistically and has gotten good reviews.

Any thoughts?

[Dan_Callahan]

I can only speak to the Taconic half of the question, never having played Saratoga. In my opinion, Taconic is one of those great historic courses you should play if you have the opportunity. They'll gouge you on greens fees if you aren't with a member (might be as high as $150 these days), but it has long been one of the most interesting courses in New England. For the most part, Taconic isn't excessively taxing from tee to green, but the greens themselves are exceptional. Assuming the course is in good shape (and it should be given the warm and relatively dry weather this spring), you will need to stay below the hole at all costs (especially on the 10th, an otherwise benign par 5). There are some quirks in the layout—a few tees are very close together and it isn't always obvious which hole is next—but Taconic is well-worth the experience.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Other possibilities would be Glens Falls or McGregor Golf Links.  Having played a couple of Rulwich tracks, I would avoid them if you are simply playing for fun.  Taconic is a great little old layout with cool par 3's.

[Ken Fry]

One more wrinkle to add is coming from New York into the Berkshires is itself a nice experience.  Williamstown is a beautiful little town.  The surrounding mountains create a gorgeous atmosphere.  To top it all off, the course is great.

[Martin Del Vecchio]

Taconic will host the Massachusetts Amateur championship this year, July 12-16th.

[EAF]

I'll recommend the Highland Golf Club that is just south of Lake George in Queensbury (I think). It is a solid layout with good greens. The course hosted the NY State Open about three years ago.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Many thanks for the advice regarding this decision.  I think I'll schedule the round at Taconic, assuming the weather looks good.

I'll post some comments about the trip after I return!

[rjsimper]

Many thanks for the advice regarding this decision.  I think I'll schedule the round at Taconic, assuming the weather looks good.

I'll post some comments about the trip after I return!

You'll love it- I'd rather play there than Brookline as far as Mass golf courses go...

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I ended up doing what any GCA die hard would do...  I figured out I could fit in a round at BOTH courses.

Friday - Hudson National
Saturday - Sagamore (am), Saratoga National (pm)
Sunday - Sagamore (am), Taconic (pm)

I may not get home until 1 am on Sunday night, but who cares.  I'll post comments when I return.

p.s. - a nice perk is being in Saratoga to watch the Belmont.  Should be a good crowd around the bar to watch the race up there in Horse Country.

[Matt_Ward]

Geoffrey:

You raise a tough question -- I have played both and clearly each course has its share of wonderful moments.

Saratoga National is a well done layout by Roger Rulewich -- it is routed around a series of wetlands that dot the landscape. The course was not in tip top shape when I first played it a few seasons ago but to be fair the course had only opened for its first full season.

The back nine is where things intensify at SN and you have to be mindful in positioning tee shots carefully to avoid any number of well placed obstacles -- the wetlands especially.

Saratoga National is a much easier course to reach from The Sagamore and although Taconic is a fine course in a majestic setting (particularly in Fall) I would rate both of the courses a draw.

Be interested in your comments should you play both of them.

P.S. Be forewarned the front nine at The Sagamore does have drainage issues -- especially in the middle of the front nine. One of the finer holes there is the uphill par-4 7th!

[Andy Hughes]

Having played a couple of Rulwich tracks, I would avoid them if you are simply playing for fun.

Mr Deruntz, nice subtle dig!  

[Dave_Miller]

Looking for some advice on this one

I have a golf trip planned next weekend to The Sagamore (Fri-Sun). I always try and get a round in at a different course and I am debating whether or not it makes more sense to make the 1 hr 45 min drive to Taconic (a course which I have been dying to play) or to play at Saratoga National (30 min. drive).

I have heard that Taconic is well worth the effort, but Saratoga is much easier logistically and has gotten good reviews.

Any thoughts?

Geoff:
The Sagamore itself has a very nice golf course.  Be sure to play it while you are there.
Best
Dave

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Matt - The fact that you would rate the two courses as a draw pleasantly surprises me but I am sure that it is hard to compare two courses that are as different as these two.  Although they are quite different, are they both equally resistant to scoring?

Dave - I am definitely playing at The Sagamore... once Sat morning, once Sun morning.  Wouldn't pass up that opportunity!

Ryan - Have you played both TCC and Taconic?  It would seem to me that the two courses would have a simialr feel to them.  I'd be interested to see a more detailed comparison of the two.

[Matt_Ward]

Geoffrey:

In regards to resistance to scoring Saratoga National is a miser in giving anything away except to fine play. The wetlands pinch in a few holes and you have to be mindful of your limitations -- remember Eastwood's famous line -- "a man's got to know his limitations."

Keep that in mind when playing SN and you'll venture home with your eggs / ammo in tact.

P.S. While you're at The Sagamore please let all know concerning how wet the area is on the front side. I was told drainage is being worked on in that area. Thanks ...

[fred ruttenberg]

I had heard the Mcgregor Golf Links was a wonderful layout. Does anyone know more about the course?

[rjsimper]

I had heard the Mcgregor Golf Links was a wonderful layout. Does anyone know more about the course?

Pardon my immaturity here, but McGregor SUCKS.

It is probably my least favorite course in the Northeast...honestly.

This is not to say that 10 years ago, it was a decent layout...even 5 years ago it was much better...but they have gone off the deep end a hundred fold with housing and development to the point that there is ridiculous OB on over half of the holes, houses where beautiful stands of trees once stood, and in my opinion, the conditioning has never been better than average.

To give some perspective on it-

2 is a par 4 with natural OB left, but they built houses up the right, all 440 yards of the hole, so now there is OB left no more than 15 yards off the fairway it would seem...they actually took land away from the golf hole and made it OB so that people could have a yard.  Houses built around 2000

4 is a short par 4 - houses being built left - I dont know that they will affect the hole, but they do affect number 6

6 - par 5 - houses down the entire left side now- built 2k1, same OB story- the OB seems to arbitrarily bite off maybe 5 yards of the hole on the left

9 - houses down the entire left of this par 4 - same story again.

Really, it was once probably a decent layout, but houses and development have absolutely ruined it- the houses arent even attractive- identical vinyl sided eyesores (at least, it looks like some sort of pre-made siding)

Nearby Mohawk is a much better effort from this architect, whose name slips my mind...even before the housing...

In closing on this topic, I think I would recommend your local muni over McGregor...the frustration far outweighs any merits of the place.

[rjsimper]

Ryan - Have you played both TCC and Taconic?  It would seem to me that the two courses would have a simialr feel to them.  I'd be interested to see a more detailed comparison of the two.

Geoffrey -

I assume you are talking about the golf course explicitly, and not about the ambiance of the golf "experience" because pertaining to the latter, I don't think that two courses so geographically close and built in the same general era could "feel" any more different - TCC with its over-the-top opulence, massive and stately clubhouse, and nationally known history.  

Taconic, on the other hand, has a tiny cottage-like clubhouse, no driving range, and a sign proclaiming "No Preferred Lies, We play GOLF here" on the clubhouse door plain as day.

Course-wise...my recollections of TCC are far fuzzier than Taconic, which I have played probably 30 times.  One of the beautiful things about Taconic is how absolutely straight-forward it is...as was already mentioned, if you keep the ball below the hole, you'll be fine, and thats really all you need to know at Taconic...at TCC, you step up to the third tee and wonder hmmmm...where do I hit it.  This is not to say 3 at TCC is not a great hole, because I loved it, but Taconic is more in the vein of a Pinehurst #2...do whatever you want to get to the green, but once you get there, oh boy!

TCC has more individual hole seclusion as Taconic has plenty of parallel fairways - TCC "feels" older.

TCC has 3 very quirky holes...well, one quirky and one weak and one with oft-debated merits...the three which are removed for the composite tournament course - 9, 10, and the drop-shot par 3 on the back nine.  Going around Taconic, I'd challenge you to find a single hole as weak as any one of these three...

Taconic, to me, is the ultimate example of a fair, challenging, unintimidating but maybe it should be layout - it is always in impeccable condition and the greens roll quicker and truer than just about any course I can think of.

TCC is a great course, dont get me wrong, but I think TCC is more about the CC experience and playing it a few times for tradition's sake and just to say that you've done it - but as a daily play course, give me Taconic and I'd be thrilled.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I will post more detalied notes when I have more time tonight but here are my thoughts from the trip to The Sagamore:

The Sagamore course is a true Donald Ross gem that should be considered for Ran's list of profiled courses.  It has an extremely interesting set of greens (love those hogbacks!) that had me looking at putts three ways and seeing three different reads. It would have been helpful to have a caddy who knew the in and outs of the course (caddies aren't available) but I think thats part of the charm of the course - You need to play there a number of times before you begin to understand both the greens and how to play the course strategically.

Holes of note:
#1 - Par 4 - Wow! I don't think I've seen many opening holes on the East Coast that have a better view than this one.  Elevated tee overlooking the entire length of the hole, woods, Lake George and the mountains on the Vermont side.

#3 - Par 3 - Great long par 3, 190+ uphill with a SEVERE slope on the right side.  Got up and down from the base of the hill on the right, the green must have been 40 feet above me.

#7 - Par 4 - Severely uphill, dogleg left, par 4, 420 yds. from the back tees.  Must shape your drive around the trees, tough approach from a hanging lie which promotes a left to right shot.  Right of the green is dead.

#8 - Par 3 - Uphill, 180+.  Interesting green and bunkering.

#13 - Par 4 - Blind tee shot over hill, landing area bordered by woods to left, water back and right.  Approach over wetlands to elevated green.  Tough hole, visually beautiful.

#15 - Par 4 - Great example of a hole that would give the pros fits.  Not overly long but requires the tee shot to be shaped around the severe dogleg left.  Long through the fairway is dead.  Green has a hogback in and a couple of tough pin placements (back left comes to mind).  Front left bunker is 8 feet deep.

Regarding the drainage, it was definitely an issue in the fairways on #5, #6 and the second fairway on #10.  5 & 6 need new irrigation, 10 does not get enough sunlight.

I'll post my thoughts on Saratoga National and Taconic in a later post.

[rjsimper]

Geoffrey - Id be interested to hear your thoughts on SN and Taconic...

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Ryan,

Thanks for reminding me... I am afraid I have been busy trying to get ready for working as a volunteer at the Open this week.

Here are some quick thoughts on Taconic and Saratoga:

You would be hard pressed to think of two quality courses in the Northeast that are so close together and yet are so different.  Comparing these courses is like comparing Paul Runyan to John Daly.  Sure they are both great players with two major victories but they achieved greatness in VERY different ways.

Stiles and Van Cleek did a masterful job integrating the design of Taconic GC with the terrain they were given.  I put it on par (pardon the pun) with Merion in this respect.  I used every club in the bag and a number of different ball flights (draw, fade, etc.).  In addition, every hole had a distinctive look and there were a wonderful collection of Par 3's.  The course was not overly long, extremely playable, and as a result my Dad nipped me in our match (although I was giving him 4 stokes a side).  

Saratoga was the prototypical modern course with all the amenities (range, putting greens, chipping area) and was in great condition.  The caddy was fantastic, and the course was a pleasure to walk, even with the additional length.  Visually, the course was stunning with the forced carries over wetlands, the holes along the water, and great sightlines.  I thought that Rulewich did a wonderful job designing the course, given the wetland restrictions that he had to deal with.  Even my Dad, who has trouble with forced carry, was able to play the course without much difficulty playing from the right tees (blue).

I would say that Taconic is a more complete test of golf because it requires more finesse around the greens and more ball flight/yardage control from the fairways (which have a number of uneven lies).  In addition, it benefits from an aura that I always feel/sense at great classical courses which I can never explain but I have a feeling a number of GCA posters understand.  I'd love for someone to start a discussion on this, because I always have a hard time explaining what creates that feeling to other people....  My dad summed it up best when he said that Saratoga was a great course but had a very similar feel to a number of other courses he had played.  However, the Taconic experience was unique.

In closing, if I had to play one more round of golf between the two I would go to Taconic.  But if I wanted to work on my game, or host a golf trip with my friends, I'd head to Saratoga for the overall service experience.

[rjsimper]

Geoffrey- I know exactly what you mean about the aura at Taconic - its just old school golf - I love it - I have not played SN, but as I said earlier, I'd almost rather play Taconic than TCC (if not for the fact that Ive played Taconic over 20 times, but TCC only once)

Im glad you got to play it - hopefully they had the greens in typical Taconic condition (aka perfect)

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